"personal hygeine" of JB

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

According to the above information, rigor sets in anywhere from one to three hours.

So lets assume she was killed at 1AM then at 4AM she is in full or near complete rigor.

What you suggest would fit, even more so, if the reason she is still wearing the white-gap top is that the rigor prevented its removal and the redressing in her barbie-gown?

One inconsistency relates to the garrote, since Coroner Meyer implies this was used to asphyxiate JonBenet, but by the time of the wine-cellar staging JonBenet was dead in rigor-mortis, so I assume she was strangled long before this point in time?


.

good point,so you think she was assaulted,strangled and hit upon the head simultaneously,(or perhaps strangled to unconciousness,first),she's dead at that point,and so is cleaned up,either partially then, or later on,when she is in rigor.(?)

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

According to the above information, rigor sets in anywhere from one to three hours.

So lets assume she was killed at 1AM then at 4AM she is in full or near complete rigor.

What you suggest would fit, even more so, if the reason she is still wearing the white-gap top is that the rigor prevented its removal and the redressing in her barbie-gown?

One inconsistency relates to the garrote, since Coroner Meyer implies this was used to asphyxiate JonBenet, but by the time of the wine-cellar staging JonBenet was dead in rigor-mortis, so I assume she was strangled long before this point in time?


.

re: her shirt,it would actually be easier to change her shirt w/ her arms above her head,I would think.so that didn't prevent them from changing her.my guess is the barbie gown was there by mistake,and their plan was to say she was abducted from her bed,after being carried straight to bed asleep the previous night,which is just what they did.
Interesting thing is both Patsy and JB had on clothing worn the night b/f.JR's fibers from some clothing he wore the night bf were in a highly suspect place on JB.Only BR is absent of either of these,probably bc he was already in bed or was shuffled off to bed soon after it happened.And JR was the only one to take a shower and change his clothing.

 

[Toltec]

As we all know, TOD was not established by Coroner Meyer. Steve Thomas states that all the Coroner had to do was take the liver temp and extract fluid from the eye. Meyer arrived at the Ramsey home around 8pm...but his assistants arrived soon after the body was found. I have to wonder if the assistants did take a liver temp and the public is not privy to it.

Patsy could not undo the bash to the head that rendered JonBenet unconcious. She would not be able to explain the head wound to medical personnel without being arrested. She chooses to stage a kidnapping.

Patsy also realizes that a head wound and a ransom note would not be convincing so she adds sexual assault and strangulation. This was a woman running in panic mode. She added too much to the crime scene...she couldn't stop.

That is my theory.

 

[Ames]

As we all know, TOD was not established by Coroner Meyer. Steve Thomas states that all the Coroner had to do was take the liver temp and extract fluid from the eye. Meyer arrived at the Ramsey home around 8pm...but his assistants arrived soon after the body was found. I have to wonder if the assistants did take a liver temp and the public is not privy to it.

Patsy could not undo the bash to the head that rendered JonBenet unconcious. She would not be able to explain the head wound to medical personnel without being arrested. She chooses to stage a kidnapping.

Patsy also realizes that a head wound and a ransom note would not be convincing so she adds sexual assault and strangulation. This was a woman running in panic mode. She added too much to the crime scene...she couldn't stop.

That is my theory.

And to the RN...she just was panicky and got carried away.

 

[Solace]

And to the RN...she just was panicky and got carried away.

But Ames, why does John let her write such a long note? Do you think she is too crazy to reason with, is he too crazy to deal with it? Or does he think well maybe it will work, no one would think we would write a 3 pager?

But he is not stupid Ames, if he is in on this, he has to know that they will analyze the handwriting. So what do you think? And how are you feeling?

 

[UKGuy]

As we all know, TOD was not established by Coroner Meyer. Steve Thomas states that all the Coroner had to do was take the liver temp and extract fluid from the eye. Meyer arrived at the Ramsey home around 8pm...but his assistants arrived soon after the body was found. I have to wonder if the assistants did take a liver temp and the public is not privy to it.

Patsy could not undo the bash to the head that rendered JonBenet unconcious. She would not be able to explain the head wound to medical personnel without being arrested. She chooses to stage a kidnapping.

Patsy also realizes that a head wound and a ransom note would not be convincing so she adds sexual assault and strangulation. This was a woman running in panic mode. She added too much to the crime scene...she couldn't stop.

That is my theory.

Toltec,

Patsy also realizes that a head wound and a ransom note would not be convincing so she adds sexual assault and strangulation.

You reckon so? Why was JonBenet then wiped down, then the sexual assault was hidden, submerged beneath her urine-soaked longjohns, size-12 underwear and white blankets? Thats a contradiction that needs some explanation?

Patsy also realizes that a head wound and a ransom note would not be convincing

To the naked eye there is no head injury, it is invisible!

Patsy could not undo the bash to the head that rendered JonBenet unconcious.

This you cannot know, it may have come after she was strangled to make sure she was dead?

The sexual assault was cleaned up and rendered invisible beneath her clothing, her head injury was invisible to the naked eye, both are serious inconsistencies in your theory!


.

 

[UKGuy]

re: her shirt,it would actually be easier to change her shirt w/ her arms above her head,I would think.so that didn't prevent them from changing her.my guess is the barbie gown was there by mistake,and their plan was to say she was abducted from her bed,after being carried straight to bed asleep the previous night,which is just what they did.
Interesting thing is both Patsy and JB had on clothing worn the night b/f.JR's fibers from some clothing he wore the night bf were in a highly suspect place on JB.Only BR is absent of either of these,probably bc he was already in bed or was shuffled off to bed soon after it happened.And JR was the only one to take a shower and change his clothing.

JMO8778,
There was nothing in the wine-cellar by mistake, it was a staged crime-scene, not the result of a disorganized psychopathic rage.

I do not think her arms were wholly above her head, maybe an attempt had been made to move them?


.

 

[UKGuy]

good point,so you think she was assaulted,strangled and hit upon the head simultaneously,(or perhaps strangled to unconciousness,first),she's dead at that point,and so is cleaned up,either partially then, or later on,when she is in rigor.(?)

JMO8778,

More or less , who can tell if the head injury was not an attempt to create a crime-scene of brutal violence, but someone lacked the will to continue bashing?

I think JonBenet was killed either during or just after being sexually molested, this is consistent with the autopsy report.

What happened next depends on who you think molested her, since it appears that Patsy digitally assaulted JonBenet, not unless the paintbrush was initially used to sexually assault her, then it was incorporated deliberately into the crime-scene to further confuse matters?

So assuming JDI, he then hides the sexual assault from Patsy, then persuades Patsy to use the paintbrush to create the garrote? Personally that seems a little too far fetched.


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
There was nothing in the wine-cellar by mistake, it was a staged crime-scene, not the result of a disorganized psychopathic rage.

I do not think her arms were wholly above her head, maybe an attempt had been made to move them?


.

when JR was asked about the nightgown,he slipped and said 'that shouldn't be there'.

in the artist's sketch and in the movie,which is all we have to go on,they are.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

More or less , who can tell if the head injury was not an attempt to create a crime-scene of brutal violence, but someone lacked the will to continue bashing?

I think JonBenet was killed either during or just after being sexually molested, this is consistent with the autopsy report.

What happened next depends on who you think molested her, since it appears that Patsy digitally assaulted JonBenet, not unless the paintbrush was initially used to sexually assault her, then it was incorporated deliberately into the crime-scene to further confuse matters?

So assuming JDI, he then hides the sexual assault from Patsy, then persuades Patsy to use the paintbrush to create the garrote? Personally that seems a little too far fetched.


.

what if JR asked Patsy to get the items for him,and to break the paintbrush,etc? or what if they got on the rope bf it was tied,if she'd hugged her?
or turn it the other way around,why would JR's fibers be in her underwear if Patsy did the inflicted the head bash and strangulation?

 

[JMO8778]

Toltec,

You reckon so? Why was JonBenet then wiped down, then the sexual assault was hidden, submerged beneath her urine-soaked longjohns, size-12 underwear and white blankets? Thats a contradiction that needs some explanation?


The sexual assault was cleaned up and rendered invisible beneath her clothing, her head injury was invisible to the naked eye, both are serious inconsistencies in your theory!


.

I agree,unless she was restaged at some point.I don't know if that can be proven with what evidence LE has,but otherwise,I would take it at face value and say she was sexually assaulted b/f death.
so I guess I just said nothing at all,lol.

 

[DeeDee249]

I agree with you, UK, that the head bash and sexual assault likely occured simultaneously, with the assault causing JBR to scream, and she was then bashed on the head to silence her quickly. I do not think she was bashed to kill her intentionally. But that fatal act having taken place, there was no turning back for the Rs. We may never know if both parents were there at that moment. Remember it has been noted that although the head bash would have knocked her out instantly, death could have taken at least an hour after that. Faced with a dead child on their hands, AND a dead child that at least one parent knew had been sexually assaulted, I believe the strangulation was done to provide a VISIBLE means of death. I think the Rs may not have realized that an autopsy would be still be done if the garrotte was there and she LOOKED like she had been strangled to death. I have read that this was a "gentle" strangulation, with no breakage of the hyoid bone and no damage to the internal structure of the neck. There was only the ligature furrow and petachiae, and though the pressure of the garrotte on the vagus nerve could have caused her to lose consciousness or stopped her heart, I do think this was staging.
As far as the time of death, that was a very useful link. TOD is always relative and dependent on many factors, BUT if the coroner or his team had done the simplest tests mentioned, the liver stab and eye fluid test, they would have had a closer estimate. It looks like all this guy did in his 10 MINUTES with JBR was pronounce her dead. One wonders if he held a mirror to her nose, as they did centuries ago, and that was it.
As far as the position of her arms being changed AFTER rigor, this did not happen for this reason- rigor can be "broken" but it is difficult, and will not re-form after that. The coroner did note rigor in her ams and legs on the autopsy.
I think even with the lax testing of the body, we still have a good idea of when she died. Rigor suggests midnight to 2am as the TOD, so do the stomach contents. When she was "found" at 1pm, in full rigor, that would be about 12 hours after death, exacly in that window of time needed for rigor to form. All digestion stops at the moment of death- nothing moves along in the digestive tract OR is broken down by stomach acids or enzymes after that. So where the pineapple was found (in her small intestine) and where the soft green fecal material was found (the Christmas meal) would also coinside with the TOD suggested.
Now, if full decomposition takes place, that is another matter. Then the contents of the digestive tract will decompose along with the rest of the organs and soft tissues of the body.
The livor mortis also suggests she was not moved shortly after death, as it was fixed (non-blanching) and if she had been moved, there would have been a secondary livor pattern noted. You can clearly see on the autopsy photos the white "striping" effect on her back where the elastic of the underwear and long johns touched her skin, and where the wrinkles and folds of her shirt pressed against her back. She was redressed right after death, and the shirt may have not been removed in the first place. Livor begins forming very soon. If she had been redressed after that, there would be no white marks on her back. It is possible for the body to have been moved after livor was fixed, and if it was long enough after (like 10-11am the next morning when JR "went to get his mail and ADMITTED to being in the basement at that time) he could have moved her then without a new livor pattern forming and without breaking rigor.

 

[JMO8778]

good points Dee...do you think JR wanted her body to be found while she was still in rigor,would that make it more confusing as far as TOD?b/c if he'd waited too long to 'find' her,perhaps rigor would have been gone and it might suggest that TOD could have been late evening of the 25th?

 

[DeeDee249]

good points Dee...do you think JR wanted her body to be found while she was still in rigor,would that make it more confusing as far as TOD?b/c if he'd waited too long to 'find' her,perhaps rigor would have been gone and it might suggest that TOD could have been late evening of the 25th?

I don't know as JR would have thought about that way- as far as thinking about a medical examiner's point of view. In the sense that the first officers on the scene did NOT find her, I suppose the Rs could have just left the house that day without anyone finding her at all at that point. How long it would have taken those numptys to find her then is anyone's guess. They would still be operating as if it were a kidnapping, and may not have done any more searching of the house, as NO KIDNAPPING victim would be left behind in the home, especially if there was a ransom involved. JBR may have been very decomposed by the time they found her, and in a Colorado winter with windows closed and a vacant house where no door is opened, it may have taken a while for the tell-tale odor to be noticed. I just don't think the Rs wanted JBR to decay. Remember PR's "perfect" funeral- She even said "She looks perfect, doesn't she?" And she did- perfectly curled hair, fluffy pageant dress, tiara....The eternal Tiny Miss/Whatever. PR wasn't the "closed casket" type.
And for anyone thinking well, why didn't they do that then? (Leave her unfound) Then the kidnap scenario would have been plausible. And they wouldn't be "under that umbrella of suspicion". Well- remember this WAS NOT a real kidnapping. They KNEW they had a dead child in the basement. And they did not want to get her back and have to identify her body in a decomposed state. Leaving the house with a dead child under your Christmas tree is bad enough, leaving her to rot would be so much worse. She would have been found eventually- and they'd be just as suspect then.

 

[Ames]

But Ames, why does John let her write such a long note? Do you think she is too crazy to reason with, is he too crazy to deal with it? Or does he think well maybe it will work, no one would think we would write a 3 pager?

But he is not stupid Ames, if he is in on this, he has to know that they will analyze the handwriting. So what do you think? And how are you feeling?

This is what I think....I believe that he wrote a version out for her, and that while he was down in the basement, putting the finishing touching on the staging....she was ADDING her 2 or 3 cent in. I believe that they both were probably running short on time...and that when he saw the almost three page RN that Patsy had added to, there was not much he could do about it. I think that he probably said to her..."PATSY!! Good grief....what were you THINKING? This thing is almost three pages long, but we don't have time to re-do it, so it will just have to do". I am wondering if he knew that she was adding anything to it, at all. I used to think that they got together on it, he wrote a version, she wrote a version and they merged them together into one. BUT...now that I think about it, I don't believe that he would risk her putting in her two cent, without him being there looking over her shoulder to make sure that she didn't say the wrong thing....she probably did that without his knowledge, while he was finishing up the staging, and as I said...he probably got a little ticked off at her, when he realized that she had added ANYTHING to it, much less...almost three pages worth.

I am feeling better now that my morning sickness has gone. Thank you so much for asking!!!!!!

 

[Ames]

when JR was asked about the nightgown,he slipped and said 'that shouldn't be there'.

in the artist's sketch and in the movie,which is all we have to go on,they are.

Yes, and it was talked about in both of their interviews...so the Barbie gown was there....but as John said.....it "wasn't supposed to be there". In other words...he was probably shocked to see it. I don't believe that it was part of the staging, I believe that it came out of the dryer with the blanket, by mistake, and it went un-noticed. That's why he says...it "wasn't supposed to be there".

 

[DeeDee249]

Yep, that was a BIG slip-up. One of many. Like "We didn't MEAN for this to happen". Like "I hear John screaming from the basement", and like "I found her body at 11am".

Every time I read those R interviews, I just cannot believe LE dropped the ball so many times.

 

[Ames]

Yep, that was a BIG slip-up. One of many. Like "We didn't MEAN for this to happen". Like "I hear John screaming from the basement", and like "I found her body at 11am".

Every time I read those R interviews, I just cannot believe LE dropped the ball so many times.

Yep, and those slip-ups wouldn't have ever been made, if an INTRUDER did it. Patsy also told one of her friends....to "please fix this for me", like she needed a sock mended or a button sewn on a blouse.

Check out this link....its VERRRYYYY interesting...the part about Patsy asking a friend to "fix this" is in there too.

http://www.shadowgov.com/Ramsey/ramsey.html

 

[UKGuy]

I agree with you, UK, that the head bash and sexual assault likely occured simultaneously, with the assault causing JBR to scream, and she was then bashed on the head to silence her quickly. I do not think she was bashed to kill her intentionally. But that fatal act having taken place, there was no turning back for the Rs. We may never know if both parents were there at that moment. Remember it has been noted that although the head bash would have knocked her out instantly, death could have taken at least an hour after that. Faced with a dead child on their hands, AND a dead child that at least one parent knew had been sexually assaulted, I believe the strangulation was done to provide a VISIBLE means of death. I think the Rs may not have realized that an autopsy would be still be done if the garrotte was there and she LOOKED like she had been strangled to death. I have read that this was a "gentle" strangulation, with no breakage of the hyoid bone and no damage to the internal structure of the neck. There was only the ligature furrow and petachiae, and though the pressure of the garrotte on the vagus nerve could have caused her to lose consciousness or stopped her heart, I do think this was staging.
As far as the time of death, that was a very useful link. TOD is always relative and dependent on many factors, BUT if the coroner or his team had done the simplest tests mentioned, the liver stab and eye fluid test, they would have had a closer estimate. It looks like all this guy did in his 10 MINUTES with JBR was pronounce her dead. One wonders if he held a mirror to her nose, as they did centuries ago, and that was it.
As far as the position of her arms being changed AFTER rigor, this did not happen for this reason- rigor can be "broken" but it is difficult, and will not re-form after that. The coroner did note rigor in her ams and legs on the autopsy.
I think even with the lax testing of the body, we still have a good idea of when she died. Rigor suggests midnight to 2am as the TOD, so do the stomach contents. When she was "found" at 1pm, in full rigor, that would be about 12 hours after death, exacly in that window of time needed for rigor to form. All digestion stops at the moment of death- nothing moves along in the digestive tract OR is broken down by stomach acids or enzymes after that. So where the pineapple was found (in her small intestine) and where the soft green fecal material was found (the Christmas meal) would also coinside with the TOD suggested.
Now, if full decomposition takes place, that is another matter. Then the contents of the digestive tract will decompose along with the rest of the organs and soft tissues of the body.
The livor mortis also suggests she was not moved shortly after death, as it was fixed (non-blanching) and if she had been moved, there would have been a secondary livor pattern noted. You can clearly see on the autopsy photos the white "striping" effect on her back where the elastic of the underwear and long johns touched her skin, and where the wrinkles and folds of her shirt pressed against her back. She was redressed right after death, and the shirt may have not been removed in the first place. Livor begins forming very soon. If she had been redressed after that, there would be no white marks on her back. It is possible for the body to have been moved after livor was fixed, and if it was long enough after (like 10-11am the next morning when JR "went to get his mail and ADMITTED to being in the basement at that time) he could have moved her then without a new livor pattern forming and without breaking rigor.

DeeDee249,
Interesting and constructive, most of which may have occurred? As already mentioned, is Coroner Meyer's lack of clarity over the status of the garrote in her asphyxiation, since I reckon it was staging, are you agreeing but suggesting her asphyxiation was incidental, unintentional?

It has been suggested that during John's mid-morning absence he moved JonBenet's body and was going to redress her in the barbie-gown?

.

 

[UKGuy]

when JR was asked about the nightgown,he slipped and said 'that shouldn't be there'.

in the artist's sketch and in the movie,which is all we have to go on,they are.

JMO8778,

John was simply stating the obvious, faking incredulity as per normal for the lounge lizard.

I think the artists sketch is but that, an impression rendered from the autopsy description or newspaper reports.

I think it was rashomon who pointed out, using the autopsy photos, that her arms were not extended fully above her head?

.