Plane Crash....

  • #41
englishleigh said:
I heard that, too, and almost bawled. How horrible. At least they were together, but they never got to LIVE. Their poor, poor families. Can you imagine, they were still cleaning up a wedding and now they have to have a double funeral. :( :(
I am certain there will be other heartbreaking stories of those who lost their lives in this trajedy... My thoughts and prayers go out to those families who are experienceing such tremendous loss at this moment. :(

What a horrible circumstance for those family members and bridal party to go from such jubilation and celebration to the depths of such heart break and tragedy.. it must just be awful.. if there is any blessing in this is that at least the both died together instead of having one of them endure not only physical injury but the loss of your spouse on the eve of your starting your lives together.. however that just makes it that much more tragic... so incredibly sad .. makes me want to cry thinking about it. :(:(
 
  • #42
So close to the ground still yet so beyond hope. Sad.

I suppose the plane had a full 'tank' of gas which may have attributed to it bursting into flames on impact, I'm guessing of course, Adnoid do you think a crash landing like that has a better chance of safely landing with much less or very little fuel on board still?

That Chinese landing is scarey!! :eek:

My DH avoids answering this question but will you humour me with an answer? (Phew ok here goes:)Can turbulance force an aircraft to lose control? That's my worst fear... as soon as the pilot mentions we're going to experience (I hate that word cause it means I'm going to feel it no matter what I wish) some turbulance and the seatbelt light starts flashing I almost panic. Ok, I do panic. I don't go stark raving mad and hurl myself to the floor but inside I'm a mess. I keep my composure only for my kids, I have this smile plastered on face and it physically hurts it is so against my inner turmoil. Geez, you probably think I'm nuts but I haven't researched it because I've grown quite used to having DH reasure me it just can't happen. :chicken:


adnoid said:
"He came bouncing across the pasture there. He just about had it off the ground when it clipped those trees," said Bill Giltner, who was hired to tend horses at the farm next to the airport.


http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/15382605.htm
 
  • #43
Thanks, adnoid. I appreciate your expertise.
 
  • #44
adnoid said:
Another interesting article in Salon:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/08/28/plane_crash/

There's one small error, but it doesn't really change anything.
It was an intresting article. I love flying but have never experienced turbulance that was scary. I always keep my seatbelt on also. One of my favorite flights was a spiral landing during a thunderstorm in Detroit. We were banking and I could look down through my window. I could see the planes before and after ours. I kept seeing Michigan Stadium, then downtown Detroit. I thought it was cool. Now my son usually calls dibs on window seats.

We have a trip to San Diego coming up soon and I'm excited. Worried that I have to pack my lip balm in my boarded bag and can't have water in case I need a Xanax. So, do I add 'check length of runway' to my checklist? I now check 1) age of pilot if possible. I had one once that looked 16! 2) sobriety of pilot if possible and 3) degree of flaps on takeoff. Actually, I'm not sure I've even seen into the cockpit since 9/11. ;) Am also wearing socks with my sandals so I don't have to walk barefoot through the airport screening.
 
  • #45
  • #46
ljwf22 said:
It was an intresting article. I love flying but have never experienced turbulance that was scary.
Oh geez, I did just a few weeks ago coming back from Vegas. The plane was on its final approach and we were flying through a storm, and the plane was shaking so bad that at one point the plane just shifted up (jerked VERY hard) and you could see everyone on the plane fly out of their seats. If they weren't strapped in I'm certain everyone would have hit their heads on the panel above them. My fiance was in the window seat and because of the curved siding of the plane she smacked her forehead on it.

Everyone was gasping and looking around at one another and clenching the seats in front of them. It was horrible.

Someone actually pressed the flight attendant call button during this 15 minute fiasco, haha, and the lady got on the intercom and says in a southern accent, "To whomever pressed that call button, unless that wasn't an aboslute emergency, I'm not coming back into the cabin with yall." That sort of broke the tension a little bit and got a chuckle out of most people.

But seriously...I was very scared.
 
  • #47
Adnoid,

Thanks a bunch for all the information. The main point I think is not to worry so much. Thanks.


Paladin,

Sorry to hear this but accroding to Adnoid the storm could have been avoided...yikes, sure sounds awful.


Jubie
 
  • #48
adnoid,

I just read an article that lays the blame on pretty thick onto the Co-pilot that is in critical condition.

It seems to me that the Captain was in charge of the plane. I would just hate for this guy to turn into the "Scape Goat" and am just wondering how much responsibility lies with him?
 
  • #49
adnoid said:
Hmmm...either you really DO love flying or you worry too much! :D

Length of runway - how much you need really depends on a lot of factors. By myself in a Cessna 182 I'm off the ground in less than 700 feet with proper technique. Probably not possible for a passenger to figure out what you need, but if you know how to read the markers on the field you can tell what runway you're on. You can print out a runway diagram from here:

http://www.airnav.com/

Generally if it's 150 feet wide you're OK, 7,500 feet long or more as well.
I have been known to worry on (nearly every) occasion! :D That site is pretty cool. I didn't know runway numbers referred to its magnetic orientation until I read the salon article. Thanks again!
 
  • #50
CNN is reporting that in addition to using the wrong runway, the crew also powered up the wrong plane.

http://www.cnn.com/
 
  • #51
OMG, something must have been up with that crew!

I always take a quick look into the cockpit, to see that the pilots look like LOL, guess I better start doing more than that! Maybe an interview lol

Remember the court trial on CTTV, where the crew (pilots) had been at a bar till the wee hours of the morning? I'm not sayin that is what happened here, but jeez the powering up of the wrong plane, along with using the wrong runway, this is scarry.
 
  • #52
Couple of updates...


Comair has released the passenger list : http://www.wtvq.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WTVQ/MGArticle/TVQ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149190240921&path=

A number of these are husbands and wives as well as a number of business associates who were traveling together. At least 2 are vp's of schools and businesses, one dean from a Kentucky school alone with the newlyweds and the young equestrian from kansas ( high school) and her trainer.

The families are visting the crash site today and holding a private memorial for their family members today.. so sad..prayers to the families.

Also there is an update on the condition of the co-pilot is still in critical condition and its speculated that he could possibly be paralyzed due to spinal injury as a result of the crash and his being pulled from the wreakage...
 
  • #53
I work with a woman whose husband flies for that airline and has flown in & out of that particular airport often but thankfully wasn't on that plane. He says that airport is going through major construction and there is "junk" all over the place. If you aren't VERY familiar with that specific field, right now it's very difficult to navigate. Certainly there is likely human error involved here, but it sounds like the airport itself should shoulder a little blame. Right now pilots really dislike that airport. He had flown with the pilot before, didn't know him well, but still he knew him, but none of the others involved though another pilot was "dead heading" and he knew him pretty well.
 
  • #54
Wow, thanks Adnoid! This was very informative and helps to make some sense of this whole tragedy. I guess it boils down to the fact that we are all human and capable of making mistakes that turn into tragedy even when there are procedures in place to prevent those. Very sad indeed!

adnoid said:
Flying is not dangerous so much as it is unforgiving of error.

US commercial aviation is generally discussed as a "system" of many interlocking and cross-checking procedures. It works really well - on average 3,000,000 people fly commercially on any given day, and this accident which cost 49 lives is the worst in 5 years. More people will die in auto wrecks during the time it takes me to type out this response than died in this crash - which is not to diminish the tragedy at all, but to put it in perspective.

One of the things I really enjoy about getting in a plane & zooming around is that I am in complete control of my destiny, and it is my education, experience and intelligence that determine how the flight will go. That's how it has to be - no controller on the ground knows the conditions in your little metal tube 2 miles up, so when you're in command you are the final authority.

As long as you don't screw up all is fine and dandy.

Accidents are looked at by aviation authorities (NTSB, FAA) from a point of view of "what went wrong with the system that let this happen?" For instance, if I fail a checkride with the FAA, rather than saying "You are a bad pilot", they say "Why did your instructor send you to us to be checked out when you're not ready?" and so on up the line.

After that's done lawyers come along and use words like "fault" and "blame" to make money.

The plane that crashed, tail # N431CA, a model CL-600-2B19, is required to have 2 pilots to fly. This is not to be redundant - the aircraft is sufficiently complex that many phases of flight require more to be done than 1 person can do. Therefore, the system considers both of them to be responsible barring any unusual occurance, none of which seems to apply here (but the investigation is not complete).

They went onto the wrong runway for some reason. On the ground, smaller planes are steered with the rudder pedals (via your left & right feet), but on bigger planes there is a small "tiller" used to turn the nose wheel and is used for moving around until you get onto the runway. On really big planes like a 747 both pilots have a tiller, but on smaller ones like this one only the left seat has a tiller.

On any flight there's only one person in charge, and that person is called the PIC or "Pilot In Command". It's a legal definition - the PIC is the ultimate authority, but does not have to be the most senior person, and does not have to sit in a particular seat. In fact, the PIC does not even have to be on the plane (I'll let you think about this one). Typically, in a plane that makes multiple hops, the two pilots will alternate legs being PIC, because the only time you can log hours for is the time you are PIC.

In this case, on this leg, it appears that the pilot in the right seat, referred to as the "First Officer" or "F/O" because he is junior in seniority to the other pilot who is the "Capitain" was the "PIC" for this leg. However, he had no tiller to steer the plane on the ground, so the other pilot in the left seat would have steered them to the runway, and lined them up. The SYSTEM then requires BOTH of them to verify that they are on the correct runway. There are 3 instuments (at least) in front of them to do this:

-The Flight Director (or equivalent), a very sophisticated instrument;

-The Directional Gyro, a fairly simple instrument;

-A plain old Magnetic Compass, like Columbus used but smaller.

All 3 should show the same heading and should match the runway they are supposed to be on - i.e. Runway 22 means they should show between 215 and 225 degrees. Runway 22 is in fact 225 degrees. Runway 26 is 264 degrees. How they missed this will be the focus of the investigation.
 
  • #55
LaMer said:
I always take a quick look into the cockpit, to see that the pilots look like LOL, guess I better start doing more than that! Maybe an interview lol
Particularly if they are good looking pilots!! ;)
 
  • #56
Ca-Sun said:
Particularly if they are good looking pilots!! ;)
Now, I have noticed a trend in that department. I always make a point of saying thank you to the pilot(s) when getting on and off....:D

...that sounded dirty:doh: , but I DID NOT mean it in that way! :p
 
  • #57
Among the confirmed dead were George Brunacini, breeder of Grade 1 winner Flower Alley and owner of Bona Terra Farm in Georgetown, Ky.; Lexington horseman Dan Mallory, a Thoroughbred breeder, owner, and seller who was a familiar face at auctions; and trainer Jeff Williams, who was based at The Thoroughbred Center in Lexington.

Brunacini, 60, bred 2005 Travers winner Flower Alley and 2003 Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies third-place finisher Victory U.S.A., among other good horses. He recently had enjoyed a highly successful sale at the Fasig-Tipton Saratoga select yearling auction, selling a $650,000 Distorted Humor-Our Tomboy colt to Coolmore and a $250,000 Tale of the Cat-Spree filly to John Fort.

Mallory, 55, had been headed to Texas for the upcoming Fasig-Tipton Texas summer yearling sale, which is due to start Monday. Mallory has a consignment at that auction. Mallory owned Meadow Haven Farm in Paris, Ky. Among the stakes winners Mallory sold were Traces of Gold, whom he also bred, Honor Glide, and Danthebluegrassman. He also sold the stakes-placed Noonmark. Mallory also was co-breeder of American Spirit.

Williams, 49, had been heading to Texas to meet with representatives of the Austin Polo Club, members of his family told River Downs publicist John Englehardt. Williams, whose background was with polo ponies in Ohio, was an assistant trainer to Smiley Adams in the 1970's before going out on his own. Among the horses he trained was 1985 Ohio juvenile champion Astrotrot. He is the brother of Ohio breeder Kim Williams, who operates Fair Winds Farm in Waynesville, Ohio.

Also among those confirmed dead in the crash were Marcie Thomason, 25, daughter of Mill Ridge Farm business manager Bill Thomason and his wife, Barbara, and Larry Turner, associate dean of the University of Kentucky's agriculture extension department.


http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=2562917
 
  • #58
One of the latest reports states that the air traffic controller had 2 hours of sleep prior to reporting for work that day...


Godd lord! what a serious series of errors that morning.. short turn around for the crew, mistakenly selecting the wrong plane, air traffic controller with 2 hors sleep, contruction and debris on the tarmac, change in the take off or taxi way patterns... how many more things could have conspired against this flight.. all resulting in the wrong runway and so many tragic deaths.. it just get worse the more we know about that fateful morning.
 
  • #59
IdahoMom said:
Now, I have noticed a trend in that department. I always make a point of saying thank you to the pilot(s) when getting on and off....:D

...that sounded dirty:doh: , but I DID NOT mean it in that way! :p

Well, either way, if you get your peanuts, a thank you is appropriate. :-D
 
  • #60
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/15408695.htm


Gear catches fire on Charlotte flight
STEVE LYTTLE
[email protected]

The landing gear on a US Airways jet from Charlotte to Miami caught fire when the aircraft was landing this afternoon in Miami, but the plane landed safely.

Marc Henderson, a spokesman at Miami International Airport, said all 94 people aboard Flight 431 are safe.

The plane landed about 1:30 p.m. at the airport, and crew members noticed a fire on the left-side landing gear, airport officials said. Safety crews at the airport quickly put out the fire, using foam and other materials. cont-

The first report of this fire, reported it was Flight 210--which I have been on numerous time, it kinda freaked me out :(



Pilot locked out of cockpit on flight to Winnipeg

Last Updated: Thursday, August 31, 2006 | 1:15 PM CT
CBC News
A spokeswoman for Air Canada Jazz said passenger safety was not compromised on a recent flight to Winnipeg, in which the pilot got locked out of the cockpit following a trip to the toilet.

The incident occurred Aug. 26 on an Air Canada Jazz flight from Ottawa to Winnipeg. With about 30 minutes left in the flight, the captain left the cockpit and used the washroom at the back of the plane.

On returning, the pilot found the cockpit door jammed. To get it open, the crew had to take the door off its hinges.

The first officer was at the controls the entire time, as is usual when the pilot leaves the cockpit. The pilot managed to get back in his seat in time to land the plane in Winnipeg.

Pilot locked out of cockpit on flight to Winnipeg
Last Updated: Thursday, August 31, 2006 | 1:15 PM CT
CBC News
A spokeswoman for Air Canada Jazz said passenger safety was not compromised on a recent flight to Winnipeg, in which the pilot got locked out of the cockpit following a trip to the toilet.

The incident occurred Aug. 26 on an Air Canada Jazz flight from Ottawa to Winnipeg. With about 30 minutes left in the flight, the captain left the cockpit and used the washroom at the back of the plane.

On returning, the pilot found the cockpit door jammed. To get it open, the crew had to take the door off its hinges.

The first officer was at the controls the entire time, as is usual when the pilot leaves the cockpit. The pilot managed to get back in his seat in time to land the plane in Winnipeg. cont--- :) That was nice! :)

I heard about this one yesterday. Can you imagine? If I had been on that plane, I would have been freaking out!
 

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