GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[minazoe]

Most of your posts contradict each other.

If he’s skirting laws, then he’s technically not breaking any laws thus he can’t be arrested or charged.

MOO

I have always said it was not likely that he would have been actually "arrested" but we don't know all the details and timelines of the complaints. I am just raising the question about what could have been..instead of just playing hot potato and ending his university experience. I am being told there is no case. I say he was skirting laws true, but was it intentional or he just hadn't worked up to murder yet? skirting laws could just mean..he never touched these girls or overtly verbally threatened them..but behaved in a menacing way. He also broke into one girls apartment and rearranged her belongings etc. This is definitely breaking and entering.

it's very sad and a grey area, what really catches though, is the fact that the staff had actual discussions and emails regarding Bryan fitting the profile of a predator and predicted him acting out.

mOO

 

[Warwick7]

There must be documents or documented situations they know about.
Because it says:

"There was no indication that WSU acted on these formal complaints, or that it acted in an urgent and decisive manner commensurate with the imminent and serious threat that Kohberger posed,” the lawsuit says. “WSU failed to exercise its supervisory power and disciplinary authority over Kohberger, despite having repeated notice of the high risk of serious misconduct.”

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

To be clear - I don't think it would have. I think Bryan was a sociopath in a way that would be unreasonable or even impossible to catch. That said, his behavior was concerning and showed signs of escalation.

My comment was more of a rhetorical question in regards to the lawsuit. Depending on the outcome of this case, PhD programs and other funded grad programs could have some sort of demonstrated liability for the actions of their students, even outside the scope of their programs.

I think that would be a travesty, honestly. Schools should not be held liable for what their students do off-campus in the community when not at school. That would be asking schools to demonstrate some level of psychic ability and predict what even mental health professionals cannot. That would be wrong on many levels, IMO.

In that case, schools would potentially have to add things like criminal background checks or even moral references to the already lengthy list of admission requirements.

None of which would change anything. First, I'm pretty sure most already do criminal background checks for TAs. My school did. But second, "moral references" do not predict violence. Who writes "moral references"? Friends who presumably wouldn't be friends with people who are immoral.

PhD programs are several years long. How can you as an admissions counselor ensure that this candidate isn't going to commit a crime in the next 7 years?

You can't.

And, at the end of the day, would the extra requirements have even caught someone like BK? Someone who's murderous but relatively socially passable, at least until he got to WSU?

As I said, there may be something in the specifics of this case that does put the school partially at fault - his employment as a PhD student, the failure of the Department to escalate the case to Title IX, or even a failure to provide appropriate psychological support. Overall, though, I don't agree that WSU is responsible for or could have prevented BK's actions.

MOO

I think this case is really about just searching for something -- anything -- to explain the loss to the families. This is a known complication of grief and that's what I think this is about. It would be a shame if WSU fell victim to this. I don't see anything at all they could have done to prevent this crime and I'm very concerned that they will settle and set a precedent that will be terrible for every other university and employer in the country.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I would hate to see students, or PHD candidates, be rejected from the program, because they had used drugs or gone joy riding in their teens.

I think that would possibly happen if they tried to change their rules about not accepting candidates with red flags from the past.

Plenty of ex-cons have gone on to college and graduated and done well for themselves----becoming lawyers, social workers, etc.

And the thing is, most of this is already known. There are a lot of doctors and lawyers and grad students out there with histories similar to BK -- falling into the wrong crowd, having a drug problem -- they overcome it and some may even use it to get into school. One of my colleagues is an addiction medicine doctor. He's also a recovering addict, which is what led him to that career. The schools and residency and fellowship all knew it because it was part of his personal statement to get into those places.

You can't realistically weed these people out without a significant negative impact on the fields they enter.

MOO.

 

[Tragg]

There must be documents or documented situations they know about.
Because it says:

"There was no indication that WSU acted on these formal complaints, or that it acted in an urgent and decisive manner commensurate with the imminent and serious threat that Kohberger posed,” the lawsuit says. “WSU failed to exercise its supervisory power and disciplinary authority over Kohberger, despite having repeated notice of the high risk of serious misconduct.”

Or maybe this is just a lie.

 

[LinasK]

I have always said it was not likely that he would have been actually "arrested" but we don't know all the details and timelines of the complaints. I am just raising the question about what could have been..instead of just playing hot potato and ending his university experience. I am being told there is no case. I say he was skirting laws true, but was it intentional or he just hadn't worked up to murder yet? skirting laws could just mean..he never touched these girls or overtly verbally threatened them..but behaved in a menacing way. He also broke into one girls apartment and rearranged her belongings etc. This is definitely breaking and entering.

it's very sad and a grey area, what really catches though, is the fact that the staff had actual discussions and emails regarding Bryan fitting the profile of a predator and predicted him acting out.

mOO

Sadly none of the above points to WSU being able to prevent these murders.

 

[Warwick7]

Or maybe this is just a lie.

What's a lie??

 

[Warwick7]

Sadly none of the above points to WSU being able to prevent these murders.

We don't actually know that as fact.

 

[Sundog]

I'm not sure, there might be a precedent for something like this. things to note.

people who are experts identified BK as a serious ticking time bomb and thought he was a threat to the students and personnel of the program.

the student incidents could have been serious enough to alert police to this problematic, predatory person who is harassing and intimidating with young women.

police don't always have to make an arrest, they can do other things, they can mitigate, warn and observe.

it is questionable but I think the consensus would be that either the school didn't have protocols in place to exercise due diligence in a serious situation with a problematic student, or they simply didn't follow commonsense protocol, which would have been to alert police and allow them to assess the situation.

I don't think it matters that these college kids were at another school.

It's kind of like they just rushed him out of the program and didn't want this reflecting on their program that attracted a weirdo, dangerous creep.

I think the school has to settle with the parents. there is no way to ascertain wether or not Bryan could have been spooked after
a police confrontation, spooked enough to abandon his ideas. I mean eventually he would kill I think..someday but maybe not this one time...with more of an intervention. mOO

I don't know how the state of Washington organizes these kinds of lawsuits against their public universities, but in many other states public universities are represented by their state Attorney General's Office in lawsuits like this against one of their state/public universities. The state's Attorney General office will likely assign an AG office attorney to work closely with the General Counsel of the University of Idaho, but ultimately a civil lawsuit like this is handled by the AG's office and not by local counsel. JMO and experience in several states regarding lawsuits against public/state universities and how they work closely with the state's AG office in these kinds of situations.

 

[Miss Poovy]

I don't know how the state of Washington organizes these kinds of lawsuits against their public universities, but in many other states public universities are represented by their state Attorney General's Office in lawsuits like this against one of their state/public universities. The state's Attorney General office will likely assign an AG office attorney to work closely with the General Counsel of the University of Idaho, but ultimately a civil lawsuit like this is handled by the AG's office and not by local counsel. JMO and experience in several states regarding lawsuits against public/state universities and how they work closely with the state's AG office in these kinds of situations.

 

[Miss Poovy]

The AG/WSU may ask for sovereign (qualified) immunity as WSU is a state university.

On another note, frankly, I’ve never heard of a first year PhD student/TA getting into a shouting match with his mentor/supervising instructor & refuse to leave the instructor’s office (293). I guess it could depend on the shouting match subject, but at some universities this could be seen as insubordination.

 

[Miss Poovy]

The police would not accept a complaint from WSU. The affected women would have to file.

Besides, nothing we know about BK's behavior toward the women at WSU remotely approaches the behavior of the defendant Counterman as described in Counterman v Colorado, in which the SCOTUS held such stalking behavior was protected speech under the First Amendment. So there was no crime to report.

As a public entity, WSU owes its public employees and its students not only due process but also deference to their first amendment rights. Anyone who thinks WSU could have immediately dismissed BK should look into the differences between public employers and private employers. WSU paid attention to the student complaints, protected the women and disciplined BK. I don't know what Gonzalves and Co. expect but it seems totally unrealistic to me. MOO

The lawsuit seems to state WSU didn’t follow protocol regarding the complaints. Do you have another source stating WSU follow protocol?

 

[Chloegirl]

Brian Entin is doing a deeper dive into the WSU lawsuit and has some things to share.

 

[AuDHD]

unpopular opinion from someone who experienced firsthand how useless university & campus PD responses are to violence committed by or against students, I support the lawsuit bc i believe it is being done to force changes that protect students. Sadly, in the USA, money is the only language that the people in charge speak.
If the lawsuit is even a tiny bit successful, whatever that looks like, it will force american universities to consider putting the safety of (female) students above the desire to keep taking in cash from the students who threaten or harm others.

It may force campus PD to involve the real police at earlier stages… oooh or even the abolition of campus PDs for anything but busting up parties and dealing with drunk students. They should be referring these complaints to local PD and not policing themselves… bc especially at private schools the temptation to prioritize keeping everyone’s tuition is too great. Schools will continue prioritize $30,000 over student safety… UNLESS they are concerned that failure to act would be even more costly bc there could be a lawsuit. Sadly that’s how we keep American businesses in line- the threat of lawsuit. JMO

 

[Warwick7]

Bryan Kohberger's professors at Washington State University knew he was trouble -- students complained again and again about being scared of him.
So why didn't the university's threat assessment program work?
Deep dive into new lawsuit here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2011810931949412599

 

[Chloegirl]

Bryan Kohberger's professors at Washington State University knew he was trouble -- students complained again and again about being scared of him.
So why didn't the university's threat assessment program work?
Deep dive into new lawsuit here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2011810931949412599

Trying to relate to and understand the families, individually and as a group, I think they are attempting to somewhat unleash what has been concealed. WSU, the gag order, the plea deal (no trial must have been frustrating for some and possibly a relief for others).

Nothing has truly brought to light the gravity of the situation for them to fully make sense of what occurred to their loved ones. Especially if BK targeted them and did not know them. Dis/agreeing with the lawsuit is not really important. They are working through a very difficult situation and this is part of that bigger picture of ultimately healing.

They may feel they have a responsibility to inform WSU of the failure. They cannot protect their children at this point, but they might be able to help others. JMOO

 

[minazoe]

I really believe Maddie turned down K for a date and this caused him to lose his mind. He literally beat the tar out of her...it feels so personal, I still cannot believe he got a plea deal, I literally cannot beleive it.

it's a highly unusual situation and claim. again I don't think you can calculate what harm could have been undone. mOO

 

[minazoe]

Bryan Kohberger's professors at Washington State University knew he was trouble -- students complained again and again about being scared of him.
So why didn't the university's threat assessment program work?
Deep dive into new lawsuit here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/2011810931949412599

Brian Entin is the best . TY

 

[minazoe]

Wow, Brian Entin's podcast was very enlightening. I am blown away by the level of misconduct and scary behavior, I am blown away by the ridiculous situation at that school. WOW. mOO

 

[Sundog]

By creating a hostile environment with female students in the classroom, if students complained about this, then the University's Office of Civil Rights should have been informed. The department and program would rightly deal with this kind of situation in terms of recording it and having an improvement plan with BK, but the Office of Civil Rights would have their own investigation. All faculty, staff and administrators are required to watch a video explaining the policies of the OCR every year and when they come on board. So if any female student expressed concerns about BK, including his behavior in the classroom toward female students, then the faculty member would have to report that to the OCR. Creating a hostile environment for any of the protected classes must be reported if a faculty member, administrator or staff member receives a complaint from a student or employee. It is the OCR that investigates these kinds of complaints, not the departments/programs.