GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

  • #3,841
Exactly! By that logic, the parents could have just as easily gone after U of Idaho for not protecting their students.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they go after everyone they can possibly think of to continue keeping this case alive and in the headlines. I feel like because the families were denied getting any kind of explanation from him, they still don’t feel like any kind of justice was served and even though the case is “solved”, it doesn’t really feel like it is. So they want to keep this going. I get it, but nobody is at fault except the murderer himself. Suing everyone in WA or ID or even PA isn’t going to get them closure.
 
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  • #3,842
It could be damning as it provides information from faculty members and the lack of addressing the issue in accordance to university policy. It would be better to not have policies than not to follow through with them. One never knows how a jury will decide a verdict.

Yes, you may terminate a TA, especially if reporting & a subsequent investigation showed he had violated Title IX. If the University had acted in “good faith”, this lawsuit would not exist. Universities tend to have a laborious process, but it appears as though processes in place were not followed.

There is a slight possibility that BK could have stayed in this area if fired in Oct, but I doubt he would have had funds to do so.

I agree with the previous post, there will be a settlement.

I said you can't "just" fire a TA, meaning they get due process. Expelling and terminating a grad student/TA is a pretty big deal for a school. For it to happen over the course of his FIRST semester, is actually pretty quick. I don't think WSU did anything wrong. You are very unlikely to see it done any faster because that's how long it takes to correct behavior and continue to evaluate. MOO

As for him being out of the area, that's a very novel argument if that's what they're suing on, because it assumes two things: first, that BK wouldn't stay in the area if not for WSU and for that reason, WSU is responsible for his existence in Moscow and second, that BK wouldn't have just murdered the students in October instead of November. That is very unlikely to fly in my non-expert opinion. It just doesn't make any logical sense to me. It's like saying if someone kills someone, then we can sue his employer for bringing him to the area or not firing him so he'd leave the area and not be around to kill. We can't start charging employers or schools for the crimes their students commit off campus that have nothing to do with the school. JMO

If there is a settlement, it'll be because WSU doesn't want to battle grieving parents, not because they are responsible in any way for the murders. I'm fearful that if they do settle, it'll open the door to universities across the country being wrongly sued for things beyond their control. So as much as I feel for the families, I hope they lose this one and that WSU doesn't feel the need to settle.

MOO.
 
  • #3,843
Interesting question, thanks for posting.

The question:

"Even if they had fired him in October, would that have changed anything in this situation?"
Also an interesting statement:
"His employment had nothing to do with the murders."

So I wonder. Had they fired him in October I think if he had gone home - run out of money because I believe he had some financial benefit as a TA - then it is possible he would have stopped the plans to murder in the King Rd home. Not sure, but possible he would have given up the idea.

As to his employment affecting the murders ... He bought the knife I believe many months before he moved to Pullman and had he planned his King Rd target early in 2022, then his gaining employment at Washington State University was crucial for him to be in the area of Moscow and his intended target. I still think his target was one student that he could have easily discovered afar using social media.

The victims appeared to be easy to look up on co-ed social media sites, at least on co-ed Moscow University sites.

Anyway, interesting theories to speculate on. BK sure isn't handing out information.

2 Cents

Agree with the second part. Re: the first part, does all that mean that WSU is responsible for his actions? It'll be a tough argument to make that had WSU not hired him, he wouldn't be in the Moscow-Pullman area. Or if WSU had fired him earlier, he would have run out of money and not been in the Moscow-Pullman area in November (when he could have just moved the crime up to October).

If this type of argument were to ever pass a court of law (and I don't believe it would), it would open the floodgates to employer responsibility for all kinds of criminals. That isn't going to happen, IMO.

MOO.
 
  • #3,844
So then he would have murdered in PA or WA. Not much difference.
Respectfully, it would have made a difference to the families of the students he murdered in Idaho.
 
  • #3,845
  • #3,846

"Idaho murder victims’ families file wrongful death lawsuit against Washington State University.


The lawsuit accuses WSU of
- gross negligence,
- wrongful death
- and violations of federal education laws,
including Title IX.


According to the lawsuit,
WSU hired Kohberger as a teaching assistant in its criminal justice and criminology department and provided him with
- a salary,
- tuition benefits,
- health insurance
- and on-campus housing.

The victims’ families allege
the university had extensive authority over Kohberger’s conduct
but failed to act despite mounting concerns."

<modnote: changed link to approved source>
 
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  • #3,847
"In a complaint the families
accused WSU of violating Title IX
—the federal law that prohibits sex-based discrimination at public universities—
when the school allegedly remained
'idle in the face of known extreme
and repeated instances of discrimination,
sexual harassment
and stalking
by Kohberger occurring in its educational program'.

Their lawsuit allege
professors were aware that Kohberger,
who was a Ph.D. student and a teaching assistant in the school's Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology before the murders,
had 'developed a reputation for discriminatory, harassing, and stalking behavior'.

The families argue
the school's alleged lack of action against the convicted killer
'ultimately culminated in Kohberger stalking and murdering the decedents'."

 
  • #3,848
Their lawsuit allege professors were aware that Kohberger, who was a Ph.D. student and a teaching assistant in the school's Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology before the murders, had 'developed a reputation for discriminatory, harassing, and stalking behavior'.

The families argue the school's alleged lack of action against the convicted killer 'ultimately culminated in Kohberger stalking and murdering the decedents'."

S&BBMFF

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part.

(A) "Lack of action on their part" (B) caused him to kill? I'm thinking (C) had they done something (fired him, put on disciplinary measures, etc.) it would have pissed him the hell off! I can see that triggering his rage and causing him to perhaps kill them, and likely others... sooner.

A = B isn't adding up for me. I think they forgot about C. JMO on that!
 
  • #3,849
And brought tragedy to others.
Possibly.

The Title IX law considers most university staff and faculty to be “mandatory reporters.” If they witness sexual harassment, discrimination or abuse, or if a student tells them about such behavior, the mandatory reporter MUST report the incident to the university’s Title IX coordinator.

My understanding is that the university is then required to notify the accused and accuser, investigate the claim, offer support to the accuser, notify both the accused and the accuser of the results of the investigation, and address any wrong doing by the accused.

If the investigation indicates that the accused violated a university policy, the university will act independently of the accuser, sometimes even submitting a criminal complaint. Usually, though, the victim is the one who must file a criminal complaint with law enforcement, if they decide to do so.

One source: Title IX at Rice University

Perhaps the university could have prevented the murders by addressing BK’s behavior before the fateful day. Firing him wouldn’t be the only option. Perhaps the university could have convinced a victim to report dangerous or illegal behavior to law enforcement and BK could have been arrested and jailed.

If BK had violated no criminal laws, perhaps the criminal justice department could have required more training. Perhaps BK could have been compelled to receive counseling or psychiatric care. Instead, his mental health wasn’t addressed until Anne Taylor did so during the build up to his trial.

BK needed mental health support way back when he was on Tapatalk, and autistic individuals (I’m one of them) often need explicit instruction about social rules/expectations that others seem to know intuitively.

IMOO
 
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  • #3,850
Possibly.

The Title IX law considers most university staff and faculty to be “mandatory reporters.” If they witness sexual harassment, discrimination or abuse, or if a student tells them about such behavior, the mandatory reporter MUST report the incident to the university’s Title IX coordinator.

My understanding is that the university is then required to notify the accused and accuser, investigate the claim, offer support to the accuser, notify both the accused and the accuser of the results of the investigation, and address any wrong doing by the accused.

If the investigation indicates that the accused violated a university policy, the university will act independently of the accuser, sometimes even submitting a criminal complaint. Usually, though, the victim is the one who must file a criminal complaint with law enforcement, if they decide to do so.

One source: Title IX at Rice University

Perhaps the university could have prevented the murders by addressing BK’s behavior before the fateful day. Firing him wouldn’t be the only option. Perhaps the university could have convinced a victim to report dangerous or illegal behavior to law enforcement and BK could have been arrested and jailed.

If BK had violated no criminal laws, perhaps the criminal justice department could have required more training. Perhaps BK could have been compelled to receive counseling or psychiatric care. Instead, his mental health wasn’t addressed until Anne Taylor did so during the build up to his trial.

BK needed mental health support way back when he was on Tapatalk, and autistic individuals (I’m one of them) often need explicit instruction about social rules/expectations that others seem to know intuitively.

IMOO
Those things might have fell into place or were in process. Approximately 32 weekdays fell between the first day of classes in August and Oct 13th.
 
  • #3,851
From my own BK Timeline:
Dec 2021 to Jan 2022 He applied to WSU.

Jan 10th He buys black balaclava.

Feb1st to Mar15th He is accepted by WSU and applied to PPD.

March 20th-30th He buys Ka-Bar, sheath and sharpener.

He bought these on purpose and months before he moved to Pullman....he already had a plan.

In about 90 days BK had been slapped with 13 serious charges...

If they had just fired him in October, my best guess is he would have run out of money and gone home. That alone, in moo, could have stopped his plans to murder, at least in that area.

I predict WSU will settle...
 
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  • #3,852
From my own BK Timeline:
Dec 2021 to Jan 2022 He applied to WSU.

Jan 10th He buys black balaclava.

Feb1st to Mar15th He is ccepted by WSU and applied to PPD.

March 20th-30th He buys Ka-Bar, sheath and sharpener.

He bought these on purpose and months before he moved to Pullman....he already had a plan.

In about 90 days BK had been slapped with 13 serious charges...

If they had just fired him in October, my best guess is he would have run out of money and gone home. That alone, in moo, could have stopped his plans to murder, at least in that area.

I predict WSU will settle...
I feel it's sad that WSU would feel like they have to settle, just because the family(s) are looking for someone to blame IMO.
 
  • #3,853
Possibly.

The Title IX law considers most university staff and faculty to be “mandatory reporters.” If they witness sexual harassment, discrimination or abuse, or if a student tells them about such behavior, the mandatory reporter MUST report the incident to the university’s Title IX coordinator.

My understanding is that the university is then required to notify the accused and accuser, investigate the claim, offer support to the accuser, notify both the accused and the accuser of the results of the investigation, and address any wrong doing by the accused.

If the investigation indicates that the accused violated a university policy, the university will act independently of the accuser, sometimes even submitting a criminal complaint. Usually, though, the victim is the one who must file a criminal complaint with law enforcement, if they decide to do so.

One source: Title IX at Rice University

Perhaps the university could have prevented the murders by addressing BK’s behavior before the fateful day. Firing him wouldn’t be the only option. Perhaps the university could have convinced a victim to report dangerous or illegal behavior to law enforcement and BK could have been arrested and jailed.

If BK had violated no criminal laws, perhaps the criminal justice department could have required more training. Perhaps BK could have been compelled to receive counseling or psychiatric care. Instead, his mental health wasn’t addressed until Anne Taylor did so during the build up to his trial.

BK needed mental health support way back when he was on Tapatalk, and autistic individuals (I’m one of them) often need explicit instruction about social rules/expectations that others seem to know intuitively.

IMOO

I am not aware of any mental health treatment that would have prevented this crime.
 
  • #3,854
If they had just fired him in October, my best guess is he would have run out of money and gone home. That alone, in moo, could have stopped his plans to murder, at least in that area.

I predict WSU will settle...

SBMFF

Or he would have killed in October instead of November. That type of suit sets a very dangerous precedent, IMO. How long before it's applied to landlords after a crime. "Well, if you hadn't leased him the apartment, he wouldn't have been in town to commit the crime" or countless other people who are in some way connected to a murderer. "If you hadn't given him a bad haircut and riled him up, he wouldn't have been angry enough to murder his girlfriend who laughed at it," etc. As a society, we can't hold people responsible for the actions of others unless they, in some explicit way, helped them commit the crime.

MOO.
 
  • #3,855
The lawsuit states WSU was so aware of the threat BK posed that it provided safety escorts for staff and students who felt unsafe around him.
 
  • #3,856
I'm all for supporting families. But I will never condone punishing universities when they've done nothing wrong. Just because the families are grieving, it doesn't mean the university is responsible. Only one person is responsible for their pain and he is in prison for the rest of his life.

MOO.
My point is WSU did not follow their written policies & procedures. The lawsuit states under .99, the CCR process and under .198 numerous complaints had been submitted to CCR, but CCR had not acted on them nor even met with BK.

Link: https://ccr.wsu.edu/file-a-report/

In general, in today’s university’s setting, there are GA & TA orientations, onboarding with various forms regarding policies that must be electronically signed as acknowledgement of reading & understanding the policy. This is in addition to student employees receiving a handbook outlining policies & procedures & expected behavior.

The lawsuit states most of an entire faculty meeting was spent on discussing BK’s behavior. As stated in the lawsuit, sections 301 & 302, paraphrased, one professor stated the concern about granting BK a degree because he would be a stalker & involved in sexual harassment as a professor. His supervising instructor was concerned about BK filing a lawsuit against the university if BK was dismissed. Will jurors be impressed with this information? What is the culpability of the university?

There may be “good things” from this lawsuit; specifically, a faculty & staff review of how to facilitate the university’s policies & procedures in this type of circumstance.
 
  • #3,857
My point is WSU did not follow their written policies & procedures. The lawsuit states under .99, the CCR process and under .198 numerous complaints had been submitted to CCR, but CCR had not acted on them nor even met with BK.

Link: https://ccr.wsu.edu/file-a-report/

In general, in today’s university’s setting, there are GA & TA orientations, onboarding with various forms regarding policies that must be electronically signed as acknowledge of reading & understanding the policy. This is in addition to student employees receiving a handbook outlining policies & procedures & expected behavior.

The lawsuit states most of an entire faculty meeting was spent on discussing BK’s behavior. As stated in the lawsuit, sections 301 & 302, paraphrased, one professor stated the concern about granting BK a degree because he would be a stalker & involved in sexual harassment as a professor. His supervising instructor was concerned about BK filing a lawsuit against the university if BK was dismissed. Will jurors be impressed with this information? What is the culpability of the university?

There may be “good things” from this lawsuit; specifically, a faculty & staff review of how to facilitate the university’s policies & procedures in this type of circumstance.

The thing is, they have no legal standing to bring a lawsuit based on what WSU did or didn't do with their employee/student. Neither they nor their children attended WSU or worked at WSU. Their only standing in this case is "could this have prevented the murder?" That's the question up for debate and why they get to talk about policies and procedures.

MOO
 
  • #3,858
There may be “good things” from this lawsuit; specifically, a faculty & staff review of how to facilitate the university’s policies & procedures in this type of circumstance.

Exactly 💯
Not to mention a warning to others.
Nobody wants black PR
and is even more aggravated to dive into pockets to pay compensation damages.

JMO
 
  • #3,859
SBMFF

Or he would have killed in October instead of November. That type of suit sets a very dangerous precedent, IMO. How long before it's applied to landlords after a crime. "Well, if you hadn't leased him the apartment, he wouldn't have been in town to commit the crime" or countless other people who are in some way connected to a murderer. "If you hadn't given him a bad haircut and riled him up, he wouldn't have been angry enough to murder his girlfriend who laughed at it," etc. As a society, we can't hold people responsible for the actions of others unless they, in some explicit way, helped them commit the crime.

MOO.
WSU & Idaho have long-standing co-op agreements. The universities are about 10 miles in distance.

IMO, your examples are not “in-sync” with supervisors and university’s reporting department(s) addressing BK’s behavior. I believe the apartment & other remuneration was included to show BK benefitted from being a PhD student/TA.
 
  • #3,860
Some WSU employees used a "911" email subject line system to signal for help if they were left alone with Kohberger.
 

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