GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[nhmemorymaker]

Wow, Brian Entin's podcast was very enlightening. I am blown away by the level of misconduct and scary behavior, I am blown away by the ridiculous situation at that school. WOW. mOO

it is the one posted just above your post... Brian's post today?? Just want to be sure... he has so many.

 

[minazoe]

it is the one posted just above your post... Brian's post today?? Just want to be sure... he has so many.

YES.

 

[Sundog]

I would hate to see students, or PHD candidates, be rejected from the program, because they had used drugs or gone joy riding in their teens.

I think that would possibly happen if they tried to change their rules about not accepting candidates with red flags from the past.

Plenty of ex-cons have gone on to college and graduated and done well for themselves----becoming lawyers, social workers, etc.

Most universities in the U.S. require fingerprinting with checking background before being employment begins and this includes graduate students. I think it is likely that BK was fingerprinted before starting his TA position and nothing was found in terms of criminal background that would preclude him from having a TA position at WSU.

 

[Tragg]

The lawsuit seems to state WSU didn’t follow protocol regarding the complaints. Do you have another source stating WSU follow protocol?

The lawsuit really doesn't quite say that. Missing is any allegation that a policy required the faculty recipients of complaints to report them to the Title IX office or the TAT rather than to HR. I infer from the undisputed fact that BK was required to participate in training and placed on an improvement plan that his faculty supervisors engaged the HR disciplinary procedure, which required progressive discipline - first put the employee on notice, and give him a fair opportunity to change behavior before more drastic steps are taken. This is a typical HR policy of state agencies and institutions (which are required by the US Constitution to provide notice and a hearing before terminating a term contract) that is also found in large private companies with union contracts.

 

[Tragg]

Brian Entin is doing a deeper dive into the WSU lawsuit and has some things to share.

Quite a sensational screed. False premies, false conclusion.

 

[Tragg]

What's a lie??

The quoted sentences are lies. The University did act on the complaints received, putting BK on an improvement plan and providing escorts for students who wanted them. The complaint uses hindsight and smears to create inflammatory conclusions that simply aren't true. Quite aside from the legal insufficiently of the complaint.

 

[minazoe]

the students needed escorts to their cars.

think about it,

mOO

 

[lcookster]

With respect, I feel that many commenters are making statements about the validity of this lawsuit or the culpability of WSU without having read the details of the lawsuit itself. As a PhD student, he was also an Employee of the University and on the payroll. Professors in his department were very aware and expressed concerns about Brian suing the University if he were terminated. They spoke about an intervention. I think they were scared of him as well. Complaints were made following appropriate channels and there was no follow up. They were within their rights to fully document and then terminate him, thereby sending him back home to Mom and Dad before the murders occurred. There were a series of dropped balls and as they put it "a deeply disturbing level of organizational paralysis and inaction " which ultimately kept him on campus and employed by the University. He should have been terminated. Could he have done something anyway? None of us will ever know. The suit also includes detail about the ineffectiveness of Campus police and their own well know history of tolerating and/or engaging in inappropriate sexual behavior in its own ranks. They should involved the Town's Police Department. I am not at this juncture going to dismiss their suit as without merit.

 

[Boxer]

The lawsuit really doesn't quite say that. Missing is any allegation that a policy required the faculty recipients of complaints to report them to the Title IX office or the TAT rather than to HR. I infer from the undisputed fact that BK was required to participate in training and placed on an improvement plan that his faculty supervisors engaged the HR disciplinary procedure, which required progressive discipline - first put the employee on notice, and give him a fair opportunity to change behavior before more drastic steps are taken. This is a typical HR policy of state agencies and institutions (which are required by the US Constitution to provide notice and a hearing before terminating a term contract) that is also found in large private companies with union contracts.

Agree.
Complaints in November, fired in December.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I found these which were interesting. The student teaching handbook from 2024-2025 (but it's in the 2023 document folder). I would assume that earlier versions were similar, but maybe not. Even if they were not, if some of this was added due to what happened, that seems to me like it would be proof that the new safeguards should have been in place before or why would they need them now? But in general, just an interesting read for anyone so inclined.

https://tricities.wsu.edu/documents/2023/01/7-student-teaching-handbook.pdf/

Has a direct link to Professional Conduct

Which is this page:

Code of Professional Conduct

The code of professional conduct is codified by the Washington State Legislature in WACs and RCWs. Please use this page to link to the complete rules and regulations. Review the Code of Professional Conduct for Education Practitioners for more information! WAC Sections Chapter 181-87 WAC...

www.k12.wa.us

PDF Here (https://ospi.k12.wa.us/sites/default/files/2023-08/code_of_professional_conduct_2021.pdf)
And it contains:
Under WAC 181-87-080 SEXUAL MISCONDUCT WITH STUDENTS
1.Unprofessional conduct includes the commission by an education practitioner of any sexually exploitive act with or to a student including, but not limited to, the following:
a. Any sexual advance, verbal or physical;

Under WAC 181-86-013 GOOD MORAL CHARACTER AND PERSONAL FITNESS DEFINITION
4.No behavioral problem which endangers the educational welfare or personal safety of students, teachers, colleagues, or other affected persons within the educational setting.

And then there is a whole section on DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS | APPEAL PROCESS | PUBLIC NOTICE and another on How to file a complaint.

The big question for me is was anyone who was subjected to, say, a behavioral problem dissuaded from filing an official complaint with a promise of "We'll take care of it." (Raise your hand if that has ever happened to you )

 

[girlhasnoname]

Agree.
Complaints in November, fired in December.

I wonder if there weren't complaints from the start (Aug/Sept/Oct) about the murderer, I think I remember a whole laundry list the students kept? I don't think they would have all happened in Nov.

WSU had a duty to respond immediately regarding the students who made official complaints. He was an acting agent (TA) of the University, in my humble opinion, he should have been put on Administrative Leave right away while the allegations were thoroughly investigated, not allowed to continue to interact and cause discomfort from these students.

Would this have kept the murderer from committing the act on Kings Road? I don't think so. Part of me says no, he came prepared to commit some type of crime by ordering and bringing the Kbar from PA to WA. Another part of me says maybe, he might have been more reluctant to commit the act if he was forced out of his position and his behavior being investigated.

Lawsuit aside, I'm just so sorry for the Maddie, Kaylee, Xana, Ethan and their families.

The killings are the responsibility of the convicted murderer no matter what was taking place. Not WSU, not his parents, or his childhood. He alone is guilty for stepping through that sliding glass door on a killing rampage.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

I wonder if there weren't complaints from the start (Aug/Sept/Oct) about the murderer, I think I remember a whole laundry list the students kept? I don't think they would have all happened in Nov.

WSU had a duty to respond immediately regarding the students who made official complaints. He was an acting agent (TA) of the University, in my humble opinion, he should have been put on Administrative Leave right away while the allegations were thoroughly investigated, not allowed to continue to interact and cause discomfort from these students.

Would this have kept the murderer from committing the act on Kings Road? I don't think so. Part of me says no, he came prepared to commit some type of crime by ordering and bringing the Kbar from PA to WA. Another part of me says maybe, he might have been more reluctant to commit the act if he was forced out of his position and his behavior being investigated.

Lawsuit aside, I'm just so sorry for the Maddie, Kaylee, Xana, Ethan and their families.

The killings are the responsibility of the convicted murderer no matter what was taking place. Not WSU, not his parents, or his childhood. He alone is guilty for stepping through that sliding glass door on a killing rampage.

JMO

Whether the lawsuit proceeds or succeeds, IMO it will force attention. It won't bring these victims back, it won't stop BK from what he already did, but it will move the needle going forward, IMO. Victims need to be taken seriously. Following, harassing, stalking, peeping -- victims need a resource and a climate for documenting, reporting, both on campuses and to local PD. Minimizing these those behaviors harms everyone. And emboldens perpetrators.

I think it's clear that the Universe was concerned about BK, erring largely the side of a lawsuit from BK, his civil rights. Careful plan for how to document, redirect. "Improvement plan". But what about the comfort and safety and protection of the students and colleagues? This is where I see this lawsuit effecting greatest change.

Office of Reporting. Document, document, document. File with local PD. Not just in-house.

For every report, incidence of BK's inappropriate behavior, how many didn't get reported. I think many of us, especially women, know this refrain: X isn't a crime. Until or unless he....

Yes, there University took specific steps before terminating BK; where they fell short IMO is with safeguards for their students and employees who were victims of BK. Not a chargeable crime perhaps, but no one should feel trapped in their office by an unwelcome presence. Seems like BK warranted a chaperone.

We can't know what actions might have stopped BK or even inflamed him, but what we can do is believe that we can do better. That these families have come together to press for change, it's noble. They can't bring their children back, but if they can be part of a movement that exposes BKs and better protects victims, this can only be a good thing.

JMO

 

[Chloegirl]

Quite a sensational screed. False premies, false conclusion.

I really don't care what anybody thinks of Brian Entin's reporting. The issue is 13 complaints filed since August. You can dismiss it but I cannot.

I know WSU acted as quickly as they could but YOWZA. BK is not the boy next door. From his pleading guilty, his actions at the University and the investigation into the murders, he is a predator. JMOO

 

[Sundog]

Office of Civil Rights at WSU and mandatory reporting requirements.

https://ccr.wsu.edu/file-a-report/reporting-requirements/

 

[Miss Poovy]

Most universities in the U.S. require fingerprinting with checking background before being employment begins and this includes graduate students. I think it is likely that BK was fingerprinted before starting his TA position and nothing was found in terms of criminal background that would preclude him from having a TA position at WSU.

The University I worked at performed Office of Inspector General (OIG) background checks on employees. We were not fingerprinted. However, if a student was in a course involving minor(s), i.e., social work curriculum, they had to go to the Police Drpartment to be fingerprinted.

I’m sure there were other reasons to fingerprint students and/or employees. And I also understand other universities may fingerprint employees.

 

[Chloegirl]

The University I worked at performed Office of Inspector General (OIG) background checks on employees. We were not fingerprinted. However, if a student was in a course involving minor(s), i.e., social work curriculum, they had to go to the Police Drpartment to be fingerprinted.

I’m sure there were other reasons to fingerprint students and/or employees. And I also understand other universities may fingerprint employees.

Unfortunately fingerprinting is not something that they're doing at all universities including WSU (I suppose that could have changed post-murders) and UI. I know people who work at both, and even know someone in the criminology department who witnessed the harassment peripherally. I will not comment anymore on that.

Whether the lawsuit succeeds or fails, there needs to be more oversight in these types of programs everywhere. Otherwise they are teaching predators ways that experts identify murderers. JMOO

Correction for WSU not at the time of admittance. Some cases when doing field work it is applicable to be fingerprinted.

 

[minazoe]

nowhere in any handbook does it say that professors at the university should take the security of students into their own hands and make their own decisions among themselves , outside of the governing body of the school to intercede in harassment ,stalking and sexually threatening behavior by escorting students to their cars and leaving office doors open.

mOO

 

[Chloegirl]

nowhere in any handbook does it say that professors at the university should take the security of students into their own hands and make their own decisions among themselves , outside of the governing body of the school to intercede in harassment ,stalking and sexually threatening behavior by escorting students to their cars and leaving office doors open.

mOO

Good point, that could be dicey. Involving yourself in student affairs might even be frowned upon (particularly giving a student a ride home) despite being the right thing to do at the time.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If BK would not have been a psycho murderer, but just a creepy PHd student not performing to standards, he would have been fired at the end of the semester I’m sure.
WSU I’m sure has dealt with creepy grad students before with varying results but none of these previous problem students were also psychopaths bent on murder.
I just have a hard time expecting WSU to be able to recognize that. They tried to take charge of what they were able to control.
I feel for the families but BK is solely responsible here in my opinion.

 

[Tragg]

Whether the lawsuit proceeds or succeeds, IMO it will force attention. It won't bring these victims back, it won't stop BK from what he already did, but it will move the needle going forward, IMO. Victims need to be taken seriously. Following, harassing, stalking, peeping -- victims need a resource and a climate for documenting, reporting, both on campuses and to local PD. Minimizing these those behaviors harms everyone. And emboldens perpetrators.

I think it's clear that the Universe was concerned about BK, erring largely the side of a lawsuit from BK, his civil rights. Careful plan for how to document, redirect. "Improvement plan". But what about the comfort and safety and protection of the students and colleagues? This is where I see this lawsuit effecting greatest change.

Office of Reporting. Document, document, document. File with local PD. Not just in-house.

For every report, incidence of BK's inappropriate behavior, how many didn't get reported. I think many of us, especially women, know this refrain: X isn't a crime. Until or unless he....

Yes, there University took specific steps before terminating BK; where they fell short IMO is with safeguards for their students and employees who were victims of BK. Not a chargeable crime perhaps, but no one should feel trapped in their office by an unwelcome presence. Seems like BK warranted a chaperone.

We can't know what actions might have stopped BK or even inflamed him, but what we can do is believe that we can do better. That these families have come together to press for change, it's noble. They can't bring their children back, but if they can be part of a movement that exposes BKs and better protects victims, this can only be a good thing.

JMO

But there is no evidence whatsoever that WSU failed to take the victims seriously or minimized BK's behavior. They offered escorts to those who felt BK would follow them. They put BK on an employee improvement plan including sexual harassment training, and allowed the students to give direct feedback to BK. When his behavior didn't materially improve, they terminated his graduate assistant contract, efffectively dismissing him as a student because he couldn't afford to stay on without it.

You dismiss out of hand the University's obligation to respect BK's Constitutional rights to freedom of expression and due process. Practices that do this do a great injustice to students who are wrongly accused. It's not just a matter of money.

I would love it if we could accurately predict and prevent murders, but we can't. Holding WSU responsible for what can only be known with hindsight is not right.