GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[Miss Poovy]

M

But that's what people are arguing, right? That he should have been fired earlier? That's sending him to be someone else's problem. So I'm confused. Seems the university is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

MOO.

Actually, one could like at it as putting another entity on notice there’s a problem with BK if he had been terminated. At least if WSU had followed through on the protocols in place, more information may have been gained about his problems.

Also, TAs may be terminated, termination does not have to be at the end of the term.

 

[katydid23]

IMO, it will also leave students who are easy targets vulnerable to false allegations and scapegoating. It's really hard to fire a TA/grad student for a reason.

That's what I worry about too. Everyone is saying that women are being ignored. I don't think they were being ignored--I think it takes time to investigate. Sadly, I have seen incidents when women have made questionable or misleading complaints against male teachers or students. We cannot just automatically accept those complaints as gospel, without investigating in an unbiased fashion.

When I worked in a public middle school, there was an old fashioned, kind of strict math teacher, that graded pretty hard. Some students were having a hard time passing his classes because he had high curve he was grading on. One year, a small group of girls took it upon themselves to start accusing him of 'looking up their skirts' and of trying to hug them after class, etc.

He was put on hold, not allowed to teach while it was investigated. He was eventually vindicated but it was torturous and he ended up retiring.

I just don't want the pendulum to swing too far one way or the other.

 

[girlhasnoname]

That's what I worry about too. Everyone is saying that women are being ignored. I don't think they were being ignored--I think it takes time to investigate. Sadly, I have seen incidents when women have made questionable or misleading complaints against male teachers or students. We cannot just automatically accept those complaints as gospel, without investigating in an unbiased fashion.

When I worked in a public middle school, there was an old fashioned, kind of strict math teacher, that graded pretty hard. Some students were having a hard time passing his classes because he had high curve he was grading on. One year, a small group of girls took it upon themselves to start accusing him of 'looking up their skirts' and of trying to hug them after class, etc.

He was put on hold, not allowed to teach while it was investigated. He was eventually vindicated but it was torturous and he ended up retiring.

I just don't want the pendulum to swing too far one way or the other.

RBBM
Exactly, if this murderer had received that many serious complaints, WSU should have suspended him from his TA job until a full investigation was done. JMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

the very premise of their academic program is being able to identify criminals, work in crime prevention, forensics, analyzing predators, becoming expert in profiling etc. lol, so much for a college criminology programs. the irony is just astonishing.

No criminology program can positively predict who will become a murderer. Any that claim they can should be avoided at all costs because they're lying. Human behavior just doesn't allow us to do this with any reliability. If it did, then imagine how many murders could be prevented by the courts who've already had run-ins with the would-be murderers.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

If he had been fired for cause and it was not buried that he was fired for cause ( as in it was on his record), then not damned if they did. Not that it could have mattered in anyway, but had WSU fired him (assuming there was a fireable offense), at that point they would have done their due diligence as long as no one wrote a letter of recommendation or someone who might have been required to say he was fired for cause refused to do so.

That's what happened eventually though. I don't know if it was "for cause" or not or even if that determination is made in these types of student-teacher situations, but they did terminate him. The problem is, it seems to me, that some expect the school to have fired him much quicker than they did. But, IMO, that's unreasonable. Due process exists to protect everyone and that means that sometimes, the bad apples will last a bit longer in order to insure those wrongly accused don't have their lives destroyed.

It seems to me the argument is did BK do anything that would have warranted LE intervention and WSU did not bring in LE. Well, at least that is what I see. Being creepy isn't a crime. Sexual Harassment CAN be a crime if it reaches a certain level. .

Is sexual harassment a criminal offense or a civil offense? I agree that the bar would have to be really, really high for it to be a crime and from the information we have, I don't think this case fell in that category.

If there was proof that BK was stalking anyone (by complaints sent to WSU) and they did not notify LE, then whoever was being stalked would definitely have a case if they were harmed in any way. Where it gets gray to me is that if he had been arrested by LE due to stalking (if that was an actual thing) and when they issued a search warrant on BKs computer (because they would have) and if there had been anything indicating BK was stalking any of the 4, then might the parents have some standing?

Maybe, but given that law enforcement has already done all this (presumably), and have said repeatedly they couldn't find any connection between him and the victims and no evidence of stalking, I don't think this will be the case. Everything we'll learn in court, LE/prosecutor already knew.

Again, I don't know since I have no idea what they are working with.

If the end goal is for Universities to stop burying harassment of students by staff, the lawsuit might be worthy in my eyes.

Depends on what burying means? I'm really not seeing evidence of the school burying harassment of students in this case. But we'll see what comes out.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

M

Actually, one could like at it as putting another entity on notice there’s a problem with BK if he had been terminated. At least if WSU had followed through on the protocols in place, more information may have been gained about his problems.

The protocols in place would not have guaranteed BK would be terminated any sooner than he was, so I disagree.

Also, TAs may be terminated, termination does not have to be at the end of the term.

I didn't see they have to wait until the end of the term. But due process doesn't happen overnight. The timeline is very important here. You can't just fire a TA or expel a student because of complaints from others. Every complaint has to be investigated and a progressive discipline plan has to be implemented if it has legs. And again, "he gives me a weird feeling" or complaints like that are not usually held against the person, from my experience. Whether or not we like it, both employees and students have rights before they're terminated from employment/school in order to protect those wrongly accused. In this case, the whole thing happened in the course of 90ish days (depending on date of first complaint). That isn't a long time.

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

That's what I worry about too. Everyone is saying that women are being ignored. I don't think they were being ignored--I think it takes time to investigate. Sadly, I have seen incidents when women have made questionable or misleading complaints against male teachers or students. We cannot just automatically accept those complaints as gospel, without investigating in an unbiased fashion.

When I worked in a public middle school, there was an old fashioned, kind of strict math teacher, that graded pretty hard. Some students were having a hard time passing his classes because he had high curve he was grading on. One year, a small group of girls took it upon themselves to start accusing him of 'looking up their skirts' and of trying to hug them after class, etc.

He was put on hold, not allowed to teach while it was investigated. He was eventually vindicated but it was torturous and he ended up retiring.

I just don't want the pendulum to swing too far one way or the other.

I've heard of these things happening too and this is exactly my concern as well and why the laws we have in place to protect employment/school don't bother me. We have to have a balance. Otherwise, there will be people at risk of being scapegoated and lied about, especially if they're tough (like in your example) or unlikeable or neurodivergent or whatever.

MOO.

 

[PinkButtercup]

RBBM
Exactly, if this murderer had received that many serious complaints, WSU should have suspended him from his TA job until a full investigation was done. JMO

I think BK would have carried out the murders, whether he had been suspended or not

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

No criminology program can positively predict who will become a murderer. Any that claim they can should be avoided at all costs because they're lying. Human behavior just doesn't allow us to do this with any reliability. If it did, then imagine how many murders could be prevented by the courts who've already had run-ins with the would-be murderers.

MOO.

Yeah, criminal dangerousness is a field that is literally seeded with all the isms and bigotries. Racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, transphobia, religious hatred, ableism... And the list goes on. I don't think anyone reputable teaches it any more. It's fear of the other dressed up as a science, which it is not.

Nobody can say 'that person is going to one day be a murderer', because you could have two people take identical life paths, with identical experiences, and one might be and the other will not.

Choices, not circumstances, are what determine that, and the millions of things that lead up to such a choice are too complex and individual to predict like that.

MOO

 

[minazoe]

hasn't it been said that BK was stalking the victims for months? what could have been discovered if he had been investigated early on? taken his phones, accessed his laptop ? we won't ever know. possible outcomes that can't be measured and victims that can't be rescued, infinite sorrow that can't be undone. if I'm the judge or on a jury, I am awarding damages.

mOO

 

[katydid23]

hasn't it been said that BK was stalking the victims for months? what could have been discovered if he had been investigated early on? taken his phones, accessed his laptop ? we won't ever know. possible outcomes that can't be measured and victims that can't be rescued, infinite sorrow that can't be undone. if I'm the judge or on a jury, I am awarding damages.

mOO

In order to take someone's phone and computer, one has to have some evidence as probable cause. And that happens with investigation. The University needed time to investigate the complaints to see if there was anything concrete.

 

[minazoe]

it's just a lost opportunity..I don't know what that means in terms of legal weight but not everything can be technical or measured.

what do cops do if you have been accused of stalking? they probably want to take a look at your phone and want you to give it up voluntarily...and what happens when you refuse?

mOO

 

[katydid23]

it's just a lost opportunity..I don't know what that means in terms of legal weight but not everything can be technical or measured.

If we jump on every 'opportunity' then we may needlessly harm innocent people. What about an autistic kid that is awkward and makes others uncomfortable. Should that student automatically have his phones and computer taken and searched because some students might complain because he was staring too long or awkwardly asking for a date?

what do cops do if you have been accused of stalking? they probably want to take a look at your phone and want you to give it up voluntarily...

mOO

Not necessarily. If someone goes to the police and accuses someone of stalking them, the police will investigate the accusations first, to see if it has any merit. If the accuser says they were being stalked, and it turns out the accused just followed them to their car and asked if they wanted to go have coffee date---the cops would not consider that 'stalking' and so no phones or computers would be taken.

I had a relative who had a weird admirer who was following them around, staring at them, etc. She was very nervous about him. He knew her from high school, they ran into each other years later, and then he began popping up wherever she went. He kept going to the restaurant where she worked. He appeared to be following her. She was afraid to drive home after she'd see him because she didnt want him to find her address out.

One time she saw him in his car, right behind her while she was driving home from work---so she pulled into a parking lot where she saw a police car and spoke to the cop. Her stalker drove away quickly. The cop told her to go report him at the station.

She did that but nothing ever came from it. The police said there was no evidence he was stalking her. He had not done anything illegal. His phones and computers were not taken and searched. The next time he showed up at her job, two bouncers went and spoke to him, HARSHLY, and he stopped following her.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

hasn't it been said that BK was stalking the victims for months?

mOO

SBMFF.

No?

Bryan Kohberger Did Not Stalk Murder Victims, Say Lawyers

Lawyers also said on Thursday that Bryan Kohberger did not follow any of the four victims on social media or surveil their home. He will need to provide the court with his alibi by Wednesday.

www.insideedition.com

"Bryan Kohberger did not stalk the four University of Idaho students found murdered in their home off campus, according to lawyers for both the prosecution and the defense."

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

it's just a lost opportunity..I don't know what that means in terms of legal weight but not everything can be technical or measured.

what do cops do if you have been accused of stalking? they probably want to take a look at your phone and want you to give it up voluntarily...and what happens when you refuse?

mOO

Police cannot take your phone without a warrant signed by a judge. And you don't get that without probable cause, no matter what someone says about you. These laws are quite clear and deliberately written to protect individual rights.

No one is getting in trouble for not voluntarily handing over a phone.

MOO

 

[Ghostwheel]

Rsbm
Is sexual harassment a criminal offense or a civil offense? I agree that the bar would have to be really, really high for it to be a crime and from the information we have, I don't think this case fell in that category.

From what I have read harrassment becomes a criminal offense when it escalates to physical contact, threats, coercion, sexual battery, assault, stalking, or rape, which are all criminal acts.

Stalking is a possibility, if people had to be walked to their cars, and coercion is very broad in scope but blocking egress from an office (intimidation) might fall under that. And I have no knowledge of any reports of physical contact or threats, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.. So yes, I'll have to see what is what.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

JMHO, but the sister’s interview seemed mostly self serving and a bit disrespectful. MOO

It feels like she is trying to humanise him, I understand it as a sister, but I wish she wouldn't. Talking about him being disgusted by the sight of blood, but then helping her dress her wound is pretty tactless imo.

I do feel sorry for his family though, he made them victims too just in a different way. The are not responsible for his actions yet they have to live with the consequences all the same .

 

[katydid23]

From what I have read harrassment becomes a criminal offense when it escalates to physical contact, threats, coercion, sexual battery, assault, stalking, or rape, which are all criminal acts.

Stalking is a possibility, if people had to be walked to their cars,

I don't think it rises to the level of stalking if someone 'follows' a student to their car because BK had to walk to the exact same place as the students at the end of class---the parking lot. Hard to define it as stalking if he is also walking out to his car too, imo

and coercion is very broad in scope but blocking egress from an office (intimidation) might fall under that.

In my experience, many offices in a University are often the size of a big coat closet. So if BK was 'blocking' the exit, it could be as simple as him stopping to talk to someone in the office, and standing in the doorway, because there might not even be any place else to stand. That could feel intimidating but does it rise to a criminal level if it is a very small space and there is no place else to stand.

When I think of my TA's office at my UC, I think of very tight small offices, without room for too many people to stand.

And I have no knowledge of any reports of physical contact or threats, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.. So yes, I'll have to see what is what.

I think that if he had made physical contact or made any threats, the student and/or the school would have filed a police report. imo

 

[minazoe]

I think what I am trying to say is the emotional content of this lawsuit may very well out weigh any exculpatory evidence or legal protocol that did or didn't happen regarding this man in their program. It's just my call and I am predicting damages awarded and reforms aquiessed to. mOO

 

[Dotta]

This is bad PR for this institution.
It might be that young people would boycott it choosing other universities.
Imagine paying lots of money for your education and being harassed by some perverts with no help whatsoever

Good reputation is priceless.
It boggles my mind some don't realize this simple truth.

JMO