Please Read. The JBR forum is just a wee bit different than the rest.

[kazzbar]

There is a difference between missing and kidnapped. When the Ramsey's called the police, they already knew there daughter was kidnapped, because they had a ransom note. If she had disappeared coming home from school, I would not think anything about the family calling friends, neighbors and the community to come search for her.

All I'm saying, whether it points to them being guilty or not, like I said I am completely on the fence about this, I think they should have kept things a little more on the down low, when they first discovered the ransom note. They completely did the opposite of what the note said, and the note said they were being watched. I would have done exactly what the note said in hopes of getting my daughter back alive. This is what has bothered me from the beginning with this case. Fortunately, I have no reason to know how I would act in this situation, and hope I never have to find out.

This is Patsy we are talking about here.Nothing she ever did seemed to be low key. I think friends and family were a very big part of everything that went on .She and John seem like a very social couple.I hope nobody ever finds out what it would be like.I have a 7 year old girl and I will not let her play in the front garden on her own.

 

[akgal]

So he tried to call the family together and notified family members that a sibling had been abducted ... do you think these siblings would have forgiven their parent had they not been informed? Of course they had to be notified and of course arrangements had to be made for them to come home at that time. Obviously. Why even think of criticizing a parent for informing the family that their sister was missing. It is the normal thing to do.

I'm getting a little tired of going around and around with you on this.

I'm not criticizing them for calling family members. I'm saying it would seem to me, in this situation, to do EXACTLY what the kidnapper said to do in the ransom note. After her body was found, then obviously she was not kidnapped, so call in the troops. But the PD should have sealed that house from the beginning, they never should have allowed the friends to come in. So really I'm not criticizing the parents, maybe I'm criticizing the police.

 

[otto]

There is a difference between missing and kidnapped. When the Ramsey's called the police, they already knew there daughter was kidnapped, because they had a ransom note. If she had disappeared coming home from school, I would not think anything about the family calling friends, neighbors and the community to come search for her.

All I'm saying, whether it points to them being guilty or not, like I said I am completely on the fence about this, I think they should have kept things a little more on the down low, when they first discovered the ransom note. They completely did the opposite of what the note said, and the note said they were being watched. I would have done exactly what the note said in hopes of getting my daughter back alive. This is what has bothered me from the beginning with this case. Fortunately, I have no reason to know how I would act in this situation, and hope I never have to find out.

Following the instructions of an unpredictable kidnapper is the last thing I would do. Television is different from real life and in real life, if a child is kidnapped, I would call the police and notify the community that my child has been kidnapped. Failing to do so, especially if I had been at a party with the community the night before, could result in additional kidnappings and would amount to complicity with the kidnapper.

 

[akgal]

Ruling out is different from having evidence for conviction. I am not ruled out for many crimes, but that doesn't mean I committed them. The Ramsays had their fingerprints all over the scene, their clothing fibres were everywhere, they were the last person to see her and their handwriting under duress is messed up like a pedophile ... great ... they're not ruled out but they're not in any way implicated except in the forums.

Are you right smack dab in the middle of alot of crimes, then?

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Otto,I took a polygraph many years ago,but it wasn't for a crime--it was just pre-employment screening--but it was very important to me at the time--it was for working as a burglar alarm monitor--it was actually a second job that I needed desperately--They hooked me up,I was nervous as hell,but I still passed it just fine--so I certainly believe in them,they work 80% of the time--I think that by volunteeering to take one,volunteering,you are already showing the police you are anxious to prove your innocence,and if its a false positive--so what? its inadmissable in court--they cannot even mention it in court--they need evidence to nail you--of course there are famous examples of guilty passing it,the green river killer for one--but if you are innocent,you would never hesitate to take it,because they actually need evidence to just bringyou to trial,let alone to convict you

 

[akgal]

Following the instructions of an unpredictable kidnapper is the last thing I would do. Television is different from real life and in real life, if a child is kidnapped, I would call the police and notify the community that my child has been kidnapped. Failing to do so, especially if I had been at a party with the community the night before, could result in additional kidnappings and would amount to complicity with the kidnapper.

Well like I said, maybe I watch too many movies. All I know is if I was ever in that situation, I would do whatever the ransom note said to do so I would have the best chance of getting my child back alive.

And yes, I would call the police, and hopefully they would bring in the FBI, but no I wouldn't notify the community. I would leave that up to LE.

 

[otto]

I'm getting a little tired of going around and around with you on this.

I'm not criticizing them for calling family members. I'm saying it would seem to me, in this situation, to do EXACTLY what the kidnapper said to do in the ransom note. After her body was found, then obviously she was not kidnapped, so call in the troops. But the PD should have sealed that house from the beginning, they never should have allowed the friends to come in. So really I'm not criticizing the parents, maybe I'm criticizing the police.

You can get tired of going around in circles, but that doesn't change the fact that the friends were asked to help before JonBenet was found. The troops left after the body was found but prior to that, the more help the family had, the better. The Ramsays didn't follow the kidnappers instructions, but so what. Who listens to crazy people like that ... it's isn't like the instructions were from an intelligent person with a couple of cell phones giving directions for where to leave the attache case. It was a ruse from the beginning and perhaps even the Ramsays could see that.

The police made a mistake by not attending immediately and cordoning off the area as a crime scene ... that's not the fault of the Ramsays. How should the Ramsays know what to do ... other than call the community for support in a child abduction. Neither they nor the police knew how to handle the situation, but the Ramsays weren't trained to know, unlike the police.

 

[akgal]

You can get tired of going around in circles, but that doesn't change the fact that the friends were asked to help before JonBenet was found. The troops left after the body was found but prior to that, the more help the family had, the better. The Ramsays didn't follow the kidnappers instructions, but so what. Who listens to crazy people like that ... it's isn't like the instructions were from an intelligent person with a couple of cell phones giving directions for where to leave the attache case. It was a ruse from the beginning and perhaps even the Ramsays could see that.

The police made a mistake by not attending immediately and cordoning off the area as a crime scene ... that's not the fault of the Ramsays. How should the Ramsays know what to do ... other than call the community for support in a child abduction. Neither they nor the police knew how to handle the situation, but the Ramsays weren't trained to know, unlike the police.

So why did the police let all the people into the house? The house was a crime scene. Who was running the investigation the police or the Ramsey's?

 

[otto]

Otto,I took a polygraph many years ago,but it wasn't for a crime--it was just pre-employment screening--but it was very important to me at the time--it was for working as a burglar alarm monitor--it was actually a second job that I needed desperately--They hooked me up,I was nervous as hell,but I still passed it just fine--so I certainly believe in them,they work 80% of the time--I think that by volunteeering to take one,volunteering,you are already showing the police you are anxious to prove your innocence,and if its a false positive--so what? its inadmissable in court--they cannot even mention it in court--they need evidence to nail you--of course there are famous examples of guilty passing it,the green river killer for one--but if you are innocent,you would never hesitate to take it,because they actually need evidence to just bringyou to trial,let alone to convict you

They work 80 percent of the time, you say. Is that good enough for a truth test? Perhaps it's good enough for burglar alarm companies like the one that BTK worked with, but it's not acceptable by the courts and therefore not acceptable by society. You remember that bad guy in Kansas that installed alarm systems. There's probably an 80 percent chance that he could pass the polygraph ... but he couldn't pass the DNA test.

If you are innocent, you would be suspect of anyone that would doubt you so much to ask you to take the test.

 

[otto]

So why did the police let all the people into the house? The house was a crime scene. Who was running the investigation the police or the Ramsey's?

Community friends arrived before the police arrived. They were in fact all over the living room and some of them were helping search the house before the police arrived. Wasn't a friend of John's with him when they decided to search the house?

The police were running the investigation, but they didn't have the confidence to clear the house when they arrived. Instead they worked around the house guests ... apparently intimidated.

 

[akgal]

Community friends arrived before the police arrived. They were in fact all over the living room and some of them were helping search the house before the police arrived. Wasn't a friend of John's with him when they decided to search the house?

The police were running the investigation, but they didn't have the confidence to clear the house when they arrived. Instead they worked around the house guests ... apparently intimidated.

So, you're saying at 6:00 in the morning, the day after Christmas, when most people are sleeping in, the community was up, dressed and over at the house before the police arrived? Who was called first the police or the friends?

 

[Hyatt]

Community friends arrived before the police arrived. They were in fact all over the living room and some of them were helping search the house before the police arrived. Wasn't a friend of John's with him when they decided to search the house?

The police were running the investigation, but they didn't have the confidence to clear the house when they arrived. Instead they worked around the house guests ... apparently intimidated.

Yes, a male friend helped JR search the house, beginning in the basement.

 

[Hyatt]

Community friends arrived before the police arrived. They were in fact all over the living room and some of them were helping search the house before the police arrived. Wasn't a friend of John's with him when they decided to search the house?

The police were running the investigation, but they didn't have the confidence to clear the house when they arrived. Instead they worked around the house guests ... apparently intimidated.

What I'd like to know is which one of them called the friends over? Does anyone remember?

 

[kazzbar]

Community friends arrived before the police arrived. They were in fact all over the living room and some of them were helping search the house before the police arrived. Wasn't a friend of John's with him when they decided to search the house?

The police were running the investigation, but they didn't have the confidence to clear the house when they arrived. Instead they worked around the house guests ... apparently intimidated.

Fleet White found the body with John. Fleet had already looked in the basement but did not see the poor kids body because he did not turn on the light. Think he relied on light from the window.I think the police should have Ushered all the guests who were not part of the investigation,OUT! The fact that they did not do this further compounded a difficult situation.

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Otto,if you are skeptical that Patsy wrote the ransom note,you should read posts # 102, #129, and #133 on the SBTC/Ransom Note thread

 

[otto]

Are you right smack dab in the middle of alot of crimes, then?

Are we solving crimes by ruling people out, or focusing on evidence and ruling people in? Are the Ramsays ruled in and if so, why? What evidence points to them other than they were the last to see their daughter and a whole lot of armchair detectives cheering Patsy's death.

That's sick, by the way.

I can't be ruled out for JonBenet's death anymore than you can. I might have been in Colorado December 26, 1996. My handwriting is really screwed up when I'm nervous. What other evidence is there? I didn't see anyone dump fresh pinapple into the bowl on the table ... the one with Burke and Patsy's fingerprints. Neither did they.

We all know that 6 year old girls that wet the bed are too scared to go to the bathroom alone at night so she was definitely not going to the kitchen for a snack in the middle of the night. If she was in the kitchen eating pinapple, she was enticed there ... no two ways about it.

I cannot be ruled out because not only do I write badly when I'm nervous, but I know about the pinapple.

 

[akgal]

Fleet White found the body with John. Fleet had already looked in the basement but did not see the poor kids body because he did not turn on the light. Think he relied on light from the window.I think the police should have Ushered all the guests who were not part of the investigation,OUT! The fact that they did not do this further compounded a difficult situation.

I just cannot believe, in a child abduction, that friends were invited over and before the police got there. Because up until her little body was found in the basement, that is what this was. Didn't the parents think that maybe, just maybe the house was being watched like the note said? Even if they thought it was completely unlikely, why take that risk?

 

[akgal]

Are we solving crimes by ruling people out, or focusing on evidence and ruling people in? Are the Ramsays ruled in and if so, why? What evidence points to them other than they were the last to see their daughter and a whole lot of armchair detectives cheering Patsy's death.

That's sick, by the way.

I can't be ruled out for JonBenet's death anymore than you can. I might have been in Colorado December 26, 1996. My handwriting is really screwed up when I'm nervous. What other evidence is there? I didn't see anyone dump fresh pinapple into the bowl on the table ... the one with Burke and Patsy's fingerprints. Neither did they.

We all know that 6 year old girls that wet the bed are too scared to go to the bathroom alone at night so she was definitely not going to the kitchen for a snack in the middle of the night. If she was in the kitchen eating pinapple, she was enticed there ... no two ways about it.

I cannot be ruled out because not only do I write badly when I'm nervous, but I know about the pinapple.

Many, many crimes are solved by not being able to rule out the person last known to see the victim alive.

I have absolutely no reason to be ruled in, I've never been to Colorado in my life.

According to them, they didn't feed her the pineapple. Somebody did though. What is more likely, JonBenet was given a snack before she went to bed or a kidnapper decided to feed her, in her home, with her family asleep upstairs, in a kitchen he was not familiar with, before taking her down to the basement and killing her?

 

[otto]

No, it does not a murderer make. It DOES flag up a child as a possible object of desire to any and all kooks out there. Which was the FIRST violation. The second violation was a violent outburst and the third and final one was an insane cover-up plot that involved further violations to the child's body. So ... even though I tend to associate the word "murder" with premeditation and believe that there was no premeditation here, this child was violated in many different ways.

JMO

Give me some evidence ... other than the flakey handwriting nonsense ... what cover up? what violent outburst? what evidence leads us to believe that this 6 year old child's mother or father had something to do with her death. Sometimes I think that when speculation arises that a mother could be guilty of such acts, it's such a freaky situation that people get all excited about discovering a new phenomenon that they perpetuate the myth knowing the mother is innocent - because it's good for their career.

What happened here is worse than a tradgedy. This is a celebration of people dancing on someone's grave.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Sharon Rocha called a lot of Laci Peterson's friends when she went missing and they all showed up at the park to help search within a couple of hours of Scott's phone call. Maybe Patsy believed that JonBenet was kidnapped and wanted to get people together to help search ... that would be the thing to do if you thought your child was missing ... call as many people as you can think of to help find her. What's wrong with Patsy calling for help from the community? I don't get it ... why is it wrong that Patsy called on the community and they came to her house to help?

Here is something I've never understood. How did the Ramsey's know that someone they called to come over wasn't the kidnapper? These are the very people who would know the layout of their house, possibly the amount of the bonus, how to get JonBenet out of bed without her crying out, etc. After being told not to contact anyone, they contacted everyone. One would almost think it was a deliberate act to destroy and/or add evidence. JMO