Police say parents are not answering vital questions #3

[MissJames]

Maybe a negative can be turned into the positive. Instead of being angry about the lack of effort being shown by DB/JI people can organize real prayer vigils and searches. Can someone local organize an effort to call Tim Miller and host a search by Texas Equusearch? Positive things like that perhaps.

My understanding is ,the family has to make the request to TES.

 

[MissJames]

I have every right to state my opinion. I feel badly for Tina, <modsnip>, so I'm sure Tina had to put up with a lot. My point is that there is NO reason to go in front of a house for a vigil when it isn't about a vigil or Lisa. Do a vigil at Crown Center, do a vigil at Penguin Park but for Edith to march from the Park to the Irwins is ludicrous. It is an intrusion as well as eating up tax payer's money because there will have to be LE present. This is beyond where is Baby Lisa and now has become about Edith and others.

John Walsh has taken his grief and turned it into something productive, others are welcome to do the same thing rather than harrassing families.

ETA BBM When requests go unanswered that should be a clue. IMHO

John Walsh seems to be upset with Baby Lisa's parents and suggested they start cooperating with LE .

http://www.kctv5.com/story/16176773/americas-most-wanted-featuring-missing-baby-lisa-irwin




FAIRWAY, KS (KCTV) -

America's Most Wanted featured the case of missing baby Lisa Irwin Friday night.

The show is hosted by John Walsh, whose son was abducted from a department store and killed in 1981. Walsh has turned his tragedy into a tireless cause to help other parents find their missing children and solve other crimes.

Lisa's parents, Jeremy Irwin and Debbie Bradley, reported to police around 4 a.m. Oct. 4 that their then 10-month-old daughter had been abducted from her Northland home while she was sleeping.

<Mod Snip>

 

[Oriah]

Whew- thanks, mods, for cleaning up this thread. Ya'll are the best.

I have something of an issue with this aspect of the article that quotes John Walsh:

<Walsh said this week that parents have the right to get an attorney, but should do everything they can to find their missing baby including running the search effort from their home. He has thrown veiled criticism toward Irwin and Bradley for not doing more to find their missing child.>

I know that Mr. Walsh and his family suffered a devastating and irreplaceable loss; and have yet still managed to turn that loss into something positive- but I don't know that this is the kind of advice that is a 'one-size-fits-all' sort of advice.

Perhaps Lisa's family is not of this mindset- and perhaps they feel a bit betrayed by LE, which is why it has been reported that they are not cooperating?

If I were innocent of a crime I was being accused of, I can see myself reacting in a very defensive and upset manner- and becoming completely distrustful of LE if they were beating what I considered to be a dead horse (and that's despite the fact that I tend to be a huge supporter of LE.)

And I can't ever imagine telling a victims family that they should run a search effort from their home- especially one with other children residing in it. But maybe that's just me? Idk.

At any rate, imvho I think that Lisa's family was pushed too hard by LE- and instead of obtaining the results LE wanted (finding Lisa) they isolated and alienated their best witnesses...and not a great surprise that the relationship between the two is now fractured.

Moo, of course- and in no way reflective of what I think actually happened here.

 

[Karmaa]

Whew- thanks, mods, for cleaning up this thread. Ya'll are the best.

I have something of an issue with this aspect of the article that quotes John Walsh:

<Walsh said this week that parents have the right to get an attorney, but should do everything they can to find their missing baby including running the search effort from their home. He has thrown veiled criticism toward Irwin and Bradley for not doing more to find their missing child.>

I know that Mr. Walsh and his family suffered a devastating and irreplaceable loss; and have yet still managed to turn that loss into something positive- but I don't know that this is the kind of advice that is a 'one-size-fits-all' sort of advice.

Perhaps Lisa's family is not of this mindset- and perhaps they feel a bit betrayed by LE, which is why it has been reported that they are not cooperating?

If I were innocent of a crime I was being accused of, I can see myself reacting in a very defensive and upset manner- and becoming completely distrustful of LE if they were beating what I considered to be a dead horse (and that's despite the fact that I tend to be a huge supporter of LE.)

And I can't ever imagine telling a victims family that they should run a search effort from their home- especially one with other children residing in it. But maybe that's just me? Idk.

At any rate, imvho I think that Lisa's family was pushed too hard by LE- and instead of obtaining the results LE wanted (finding Lisa) they isolated and alienated their best witnesses...and not a great surprise that the relationship between the two is now fractured.

Moo, of course- and in no way reflective of what I think actually happened here.

A simple thanks was not enough!

But for a few details, Walsh could easily have been the number one suspect in Adam's case.

1. Adam was kidnapped from a public place and there were witnesses that he was there - and no time for John or Reve to have done anything.

2. The FBI BAU unit was in it's infancy at that point. Statistics about crime and criminals was just beginning to be analyzed. The idea that "the parents did it" was not universal.

3. The internet barely existed. I had a Tandy TRS-80 with Compuserve dial-up, that I paid for by the hour. While ListServs about Adam did exist, there were maybe 150-200 people on them. I followed his case, but it was just to get information about the case from people in the general area since it was not widely reported. No one really discussed opinions, so the witch-hunt mentality didn't really exist. It was too expensive to talk much.

I admire John, but I do think that he has become a bit sanctimonious. If you read his books, you can get a sense of it. The service he provided made his arrogance tolerable, but just like former detectives - his input carries no more weight than anyone else's unless he has access to FACTS from LE. He does not have a magic crystal ball that lets him know from the way a person "acts" whether they are guilty or innocent. And not even a NCAVC "profiler" would ever presume to go there. They only use that kind of information to help "understand" a criminal - not to determine guilt or innocence.

I have read a LOT of true crime. It has been my hobby since I read Helter Skelter when I was ten years old. I have followed or read in-depth about hundreds (if not thousands) of crimes over the last 30 years. And the one thing I can say for sure is that the reality of a crime it's not always what my gut feels. There are so many coincidences in real life that it is scary.

I have read dozens of cases where (for example) some poor schlub with a record drove the same kind of car reported at a crime scene, and who couldn't account for their time was followed, questioned and investigated - only to find out that they were not involved at all. It seems impossible, but it really isn't. For all of those guys who were later exonerated, we have no idea how many weren't. And, there is always the opposite. The Ted Bundy's who has the right name and drove the right car, were the right age and description, but were passed over because they didn't fit whatever subliminal profile LE had in their mind.

It has taught me that while I may have a gut reaction, it is NOT the same as evidence, and even evidence is not always what it seems. This is why our very wise forefathers set up the judicial system so that "beyond a reasonable doubt" was the standard, rather than just a "does it make sense?" standard.

 

[deoneta]

A simple thanks was not enough!

But for a few details, Walsh could easily have been the number one suspect in Adam's case.

1. Adam was kidnapped from a public place and there were witnesses that he was there - and no time for John or Reve to have done anything.

2. The FBI BAU unit was in it's infancy at that point. Statistics about crime and criminals was just beginning to be analyzed. The idea that "the parents did it" was not universal.

3. The internet barely existed. I had a Tandy TRS-80 with Compuserve dial-up, that I paid for by the hour. While ListServs about Adam did exist, there were maybe 150-200 people on them. I followed his case, but it was just to get information about the case from people in the general area since it was not widely reported. No one really discussed opinions, so the witch-hunt mentality didn't really exist. It was too expensive to talk much.

I admire John, but I do think that he has become a bit sanctimonious. If you read his books, you can get a sense of it. The service he provided made his arrogance tolerable, but just like former detectives - his input carries no more weight than anyone else's unless he has access to FACTS from LE. He does not have a magic crystal ball that lets him know from the way a person "acts" whether they are guilty or innocent. And not even a NCAVC "profiler" would ever presume to go there. They only use that kind of information to help "understand" a criminal - not to determine guilt or innocence.

I have read a LOT of true crime. It has been my hobby since I read Helter Skelter when I was ten years old. I have followed or read in-depth about hundreds (if not thousands) of crimes over the last 30 years. And the one thing I can say for sure is that the reality of a crime it's not always what my gut feels. There are so many coincidences in real life that it is scary.

I have read dozens of cases where (for example) some poor schlub with a record drove the same kind of car reported at a crime scene, and who couldn't account for their time was followed, questioned and investigated - only to find out that they were not involved at all. It seems impossible, but it really isn't. For all of those guys who were later exonerated, we have no idea how many weren't. And, there is always the opposite. The Ted Bundy's who has the right name and drove the right car, were the right age and description, but were passed over because they didn't fit whatever subliminal profile LE had in their mind.

It has taught me that while I may have a gut reaction, it is NOT the same as evidence, and even evidence is not always what it seems. This is why our very wise forefathers set up the judicial system so that "beyond a reasonable doubt" was the standard, rather than just a "does it make sense?" standard.

Walsh was a suspect, the very first suspect in the case for a couple of weeks. He cooperated fully with LE, took a LDT and was cleared.

 

[Jacie Estes]

But she does, as per a local.. . .they don't have to be in the yard, but people have the right to assemble, just the same as the parents have the right to not incriminate themselves. The parents can take themselves down to police headquarters and talk to LE about it. . Just sayin. . ..

IF LE needed pertinent info, at this time, they could request/summon the couple to the station. Then JI/DB, with their lawyers would go. The onus is on the police NOT JI/DB. Young's statement was made very early in the investigation, when LE leaned too hard. Since then LE has said that JI/DB are cooperating. Thye have not brought JI/DB in for questioning, that should say something. They don't need to talk to them.

A myopic viewpoint will not bring Lisa home. The two people in this case that are in plain sight are JI/DB, jersey is in jail, he's not going anywhere. Where are the other playas? MW? That's right, she got outta town.

 

[Donjeta]

I thought that LE had requested the parents' presence at the station but the lawyer said nuh-uh, they won't do it, you can send questions to us attorneys and we'll get back to you.

 

[DeAnn]

IF LE needed pertinent info, at this time, they could request/summon the couple to the station. Then JI/DB, with their lawyers would go. The onus is on the police NOT JI/DB. Young's statement was made very early in the investigation, when LE leaned too hard. Since then LE has said that JI/DB are cooperating. Thye have not brought JI/DB in for questioning, that should say something. They don't need to talk to them.

A myopic viewpoint will not bring Lisa home. The two people in this case that are in plain sight are JI/DB, jersey is in jail, he's not going anywhere. Where are the other playas? MW? That's right, she got outta town.

1) They have asked for separate interviews and the couple's attorneys are refusing that request. So KCPD has requested and been denied.

2) KCPD has "moved on" from Jersey. His public defender says he is not a suspect.

 

[annalia]

IF LE needed pertinent info, at this time, they could request/summon the couple to the station. Then JI/DB, with their lawyers would go. The onus is on the police NOT JI/DB. Young's statement was made very early in the investigation, when LE leaned too hard. Since then LE has said that JI/DB are cooperating. Thye have not brought JI/DB in for questioning, that should say something. They don't need to talk to them.

A myopic viewpoint will not bring Lisa home. The two people in this case that are in plain sight are JI/DB, jersey is in jail, he's not going anywhere. Where are the other playas? MW? That's right, she got outta town.

Myopic?

Are you accusing MW of being involved? If we're to go by what LE said, they also said that they moved past Jersey, or is this when we don't believe what LE says?

Why does what LE said always get so twisted? They clearly said they need to question the parents separately and answer hard questions, they've refused. How do you propose LE bring them in, other than arresting them?

MW answered LE questions without refusing didn't she? Did she hide behind her rights to not have to answer?

 

[annalia]

Maybe a negative can be turned into the positive. Instead of being angry about the lack of effort being shown by DB/JI people can organize real prayer vigils and searches. Can someone local organize an effort to call Tim Miller and host a search by Texas Equusearch? Positive things like that perhaps.

TES won't get involved unless asked by the family. And why should it be up to strangers to call in search teams? I could see Tim Miller getting attacked next for searching without the family approval.

The question should be why hasn't Tim Miller been brought in by the family or their attorneys?

JMHO

 

[Jacie Estes]

1) They have asked for separate interviews and the couple's attorneys are refusing that request. So KCPD has requested and been denied.

2) KCPD has "moved on" from Jersey. His public defender says he is not a suspect.

Some local media are reporting this but LE has also said that NO ONE has been eliminated.

Perhaps LE should start with a joint interview w/lawyers and move on from there. Perhaps local media should also report that there is the right to not be interviewed.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Myopic?

Are you accusing MW of being involved? If we're to go by what LE said, they also said that they moved past Jersey, or is this when we don't believe what LE says?

Why does what LE said always get so twisted? They clearly said they need to question the parents separately and answer hard questions, they've refused. How do you propose LE bring them in, other than arresting them?

MW answered LE questions without refusing didn't she? Did she hide behind her rights to not have to answer?

It is an investigation; why are LE's statements being taken as gospel?

 

[In da Middle]

It is an investigation; why are LE's statements being taken as gospel?

Especially when LE states in one breath that they have moved on from some one, but turn around in the very next breath stating that no one has been cleared and in the very next breath stating that there are no suspects. That is contradictory by it self.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

TES won't get involved unless asked by the family. And why should it be up to strangers to call in search teams? I could see Tim Miller getting attacked next for searching without the family approval.

The question should be why hasn't Tim Miller been brought in by the family or their attorneys?

JMHO

That's not entirely accurate. LE can ask for TES to assist. I guess LE feels that help from TES is not needed.

Requests for Texas EquuSearch’s assistance must be made by the family of the missing person and/or the law enforcement agency handling the case.

Tim Miller can handle any attacks in my opinion. Why can't "strangers" be involved with helping to find Lisa?

http://texasequusearch.org/report-a-person-missing/

 

[natsound]

TES won't get involved unless asked by the family. And why should it be up to strangers to call in search teams? I could see Tim Miller getting attacked next for searching without the family approval.

The question should be why hasn't Tim Miller been brought in by the family or their attorneys?JMHO

bbm

That is the $64,000 question. Boy, that sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

 

[In da Middle]

bbm

That is the $64,000 question. Boy, that sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

How do we know LE didn't turn down help from any outside agency? They had probably 200 professional searchers (KCPD,FBI, National Guard, other SAR groups, etc) out searching already and they (LE or any outside agency) could have decided to use volunteer services more wisely for cases that don't have that kind of manpower already being used.

 

[Cazzie]

According to the Texas Equusearch link posted upthread, it is an "and/or" request...family and/or LE.

The original question (well, the one posted by annalia) was why hasn't TE been brought in by the family or their attorneys...not LE.

So it's a valid $64,000 question, IMO. Why hasn't the family called in Texas Equusearch and if they have, why haven't they come?

 

[annalia]

That's not entirely accurate. LE can ask for TES to assist. I guess LE feels that help from TES is not needed.



Tim Miller can handle any attacks in my opinion. Why can't "strangers" be involved with helping to find Lisa?

http://texasequusearch.org/report-a-person-missing/

Amazing

What does LE not asking have to do with the family or their attorneys not asking? This is THEIR baby isn't it?

Tim Miller being attacked was MO after seeing everyone who ever tried to help just getting attacked so excuses can be made for the parents actions or inactions regarding their own child.

I never said strangers couldn't be involved, I said Tim Miller doesn't take requests from strangers nor should it be up to strangers to request him. Blows my mind that anyone would imply that everything falls on everyone else, because the parents have the right to do nothing or say nothing. Not even trying to bring in TES to help search for their baby.

TM has more than just being attacked to consider, he has liability issues to consider, look at what he was dragged into in the CA case. So far, it doesn't look to me like these parents or their attorneys are much different in that regard.

So what I take from this is that because LE didn't request TES, it's all ok that the parents or their attorneys don't either.
JMHO

 

[In da Middle]

According to the Texas Equusearch link posted upthread, it is an "and/or" request...family and/or LE.

The original question was why hasn't TE been brought in by the family or their attorneys...not LE.

So it's a valid $64,000 question, IMO. Why hasn't the family called in Texas Equusearch and if they have, why haven't they come?

Search groups will not come with the blessing of LE. IF LE has told them their help is not wanted/needed they wont come. We don't know if this part of the equation has happened or not. And yes, there have been documented cases where LE as turned down their help even when requested by others.

 

[annalia]

If either the family or JP/JT had asked TES to search and LE refused to allow it, there is no doubt in my mind that they would be shouting it from the rooftop.

JMHO