Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[ATasteOfHoney]

I'm aware that the law does not consider a PD form of insanity, a mental defect. I have been addressing the idea--not mine--that a PD is an in-born defect, about which nothing can be done, and, at the same time, that that the person with a PD is fully responsible for his/her choices. There is a conflict there.

And, I was not conflating personality traits with personality disorders. It was your post which compared the genetic component of PDs with the heritability of temperament, eye colour and genetic diseases. Again, I see a problem with comparing sociopathy with inherited eye colour and disease--which nobody asks for, and therefore cannot be blamed for.

I would never attach blame onto a genetic trait, fault, or disease. I doubt if anyone would.

I simply think that a lot of our personalities (the good, the bad, the ugly) are inherited. That also includes personality disorders. There's a lot of research that supports that concept.

But that's where I stop. I do not get into a lot of moralistic quagmires regarding it.

None of us "ask for" any of our inherited qualities. It just is what it is.

Many courageous people accept who they are and try consciously to improve their life and contribute productively to society. Hats off to anyone that overcomes adversity.

 

[TorisMom003]

I'm wondering where the consequences for a child's actions comes into play. Does a "good" parent just praise the child for their good things and ignore the bad things? Does the child only do bad things because of their parents? After all, a child only does good things because of their parents, yes?

Unfortunately there are children that decide that no matter how well their home life was that they will blame their parents for whatever bad choices they make.........like Jodi. At some point we have to look to the child that became that adult that committed those crimes and stop looking at the parents.

MOO

 

[SMK]

I feel it's my job as a parent to raise a loving caring productive member of society. I provide everything I possibly can for mine to become independent and successful in life. He's expected to hold up his end. I allow him to make mistakes and suffer the consequences. He works very hard at being the best he can be and I don't take credit for his successes or failures. I stand supportive encouraging and always will.

I'm extremely proud of the young man he has become. The credit is his.



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No, the credit is not wholly his; it is partly yours. Suppose you were far different to what you are : Supposing you were both abusive and neglectful, in many ways. Suppose he often witnessed you drunk or violent; in addition, you scapegoated him and blamed him for things that were your fault, not his. In addition, you had many inappropriate people in the house, some of whom harmed him. Would it be owing to his own free will if he came out of such a situation highly conflicted and depressed? People can take credit for much of what they do and are; they must also give their parents due credit, for good and for ill.

 

[SMK]

I would never attach blame onto a genetic trait, fault, or disease. I doubt if anyone would.

I simply think that a lot of our personalities (the good, the bad, the ugly) are inherited. That also includes personality disorders. There's a lot of research that supports that concept.

But that's where I stop. I do not get into a lot of moralistic quagmires regarding it.

None of us "ask for" any of our inherited qualities. It just is what it is.

Many courageous people accept who they are and try consciously to improve their life and contribute productively to society. Hats off to anyone that overcomes adversity.

Right: Hats off to them. But can someone who was born with a badly programmed and poorly wired brain overcome that without parental help? Can they overcome that, period?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I would never attach blame onto a genetic trait, fault, or disease. I doubt if anyone would.

I simply think that a lot of our personalities (the good, the bad, the ugly) are inherited. That also includes personality disorders. There's a lot of research that supports that concept.

But that's where I stop. I do not get into a lot of moralistic quagmires regarding it.

None of us "ask for" any of our inherited qualities. It just is what it is.

Many courageous people accept who they are and try consciously to improve their life and contribute productively to society. Hats off to anyone that overcomes adversity.

What was it exactly Travis had said about stumbling blocks verses stepping stones? There was much truth in that.


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[oceanblueeyes]

I agree whole-heartedly with you :seeya:

After being a victim you just 'sense' when someone's wings have been broken as kids. Abused kids aren't arrogant as adults and they often attract abusers when they grow up, only because they don't have any abuser-detectors like others have.

Nothing in JA gives any vibes of her ever being abused. Also abused kids usually feel empathy due to what they suffered themself.

I don't want to bother you with any details, but I survived only because of the kindness of strangers who smiled at me, strangers who didn't even have to be kind to me.

I don't have any hatred towards my parents, only gratitude. I grew up to be a better person when knowing what it feels like to be abused. You don't want to pass on abuse if you are a victim.

It's unrealistic to think that JA never got kindness from anyone, because children can cope if they see even one adult who is kind to them.

JA again... my sensors don't activate when it comes to her. And just because she says she was a victim doesn't mean that she was one. It takes one to know one.

Had she been paralyzed and shaking after the kill and waited there for the police to come, then she would have acted like a true victim.

I hope people with different mental disorders don't compare themself to JA, it takes much more than a mental disorder to commit a crime like she did.

IMO

BBM

Your words that I have bolded remind me of how I came to think of my parents. I did learn things I needed to know that were extremely valuable. It sure didn't come from how I was treated or raised. However, they did show me with absolute certainty which path NOT TO FOLLOW when I became an adult with children of my own. So in the end I suppose they did teach me something to better my life even though it was unintentional on their part.

I have never picked up one vibe making me feel Arias was abused...ever. I am not only a survivor of childhood abuse but also was subjected to adult abuse by my ex and that has even heightened my instincts even more when it comes to listening to female defendants who claim 'abuse.' Nothing she does nor says convinces me she is a victim but I do believe she was a victimizer starting at a young age. In fact I find it somewhat ironic that Arias is even the subject matter when discussing abuse. There simply isn't any corroborating evidence supporting this notorious liar's words. Even her 'stories' of abuse incidences are so lame and farfetched.

Since I don't have a clue about how she was raised by her parents I'm certainly not going to blame them for Arias' disorder. For all I know she began to make their life a living hell very early on. Did they give in to her tantrums trying to appease her rage? Imo, yes. I cant help but have sympathy for anyone who has had to endure someone like Arias in their life. They may also be victims of Arias. It seems when she abuses others her blame game is to accuse them instead rather than admitting she is the abusive one. Immature behavior and childish.

Some say a child cant be born a bad seed. That is a debatable issue even in the mental health profession. I'm not sure I believe that entirely. I am certainly no professional but I have been reading criminal cases for over three decades. I have seen one person out of a large family..... who is raised by the same parents, and under the same guidelines/rules grow up to be a chilling sadistic murderer. All the other siblings are decent, kind, and good upstanding moral people. I have seen hundreds or perhaps thousands of cases where these dynamics are at play.

To name one murderer that had no abuse in his past........Joe E Duncan was a prolific sadist torture/rapist murderer of small children and adults. The FBI went all the way back in his early childhood history looking for any kind of abuse he may have suffered and found absolutely none.

Then in recent years we have seen countless cases right here where teens will murder their parents or siblings or both and not only were they not abused they were well cared for children who were close to the family members they callously murdered. It seems for some teens today the word 'no' from anyone is unacceptable. I don't think these teens are mental ill though.

In fact most defendants aren't mentally ill by judicial standards or even mental health standards. Only around 2-4% even try the insanity defense and less than 1% are found NG by reason of insanity.

I certainly don't believe someone has to be mentally ill to commit a horrendous murder like Arias has committed and frankly I don't classify her as being mentally ill just because she has a personality disorder. I also firmly believe that abuse doesn't make someone into a killer. Having killer instincts is what makes them killers, imo.

No matter what in the end Arias deserves to die for what she did to Travis and how she carried it out. Hell she deserves the death penalty for all of her lies she told about the victim she murdered and when she tried to murder him all over again in court. She still continues to relish in the thought that his family mourns his loss. She is that cold, removed, remorseless, controlling, and self centered.

IMO

 

[scorekeeper]

I'm wondering where the consequences for a child's actions comes into play. Does a "good" parent just praise the child for their good things and ignore the bad things? Does the child only do bad things because of their parents? After all, a child only does good things because of their parents, yes?

Unfortunately there are children that decide that no matter how well their home life was that they will blame their parents for whatever bad choices they make.........like Jodi. At some point we have to look to the child that became that adult that committed those crimes and stop looking at the parents.

MOO

Good post!

There is no perfect parent or child. If someone thinks they have perfect children, then they are unaware of all of their child's actions or have their head in the sand.

What happened to....I raised you the best I could with what I had or knew, now that you are an adult, you are responsible for your actions and consequences...

I don't blame my parents and I sure as heck don't want my kids blaming me..

Anyway...great post!

 

[MeeBee]

No, the credit is not wholly his; it is partly yours. Suppose you were far different to what you are : Supposing you were both abusive and neglectful, in many ways. Suppose he often witnessed you drunk or violent; in addition, you scapegoated him and blamed him for things that were your fault, not his. In addition, you had many inappropriate people in the house, some of whom harmed him. Would it be owing to his own free will if he came out of such a situation highly conflicted and depressed? People can take credit for much of what they do and are; they must also give their parents due credit, for good and for ill.

Suppose you had a child and you were just as perfect a parent as you were to your other children. You nurtured them and showed affection. You tried your best to teach them right from wrong and discipline when you saw fit. You tried to instill a motivation and encouraged them to follow their dreams and work hard and be successful. But that child still, for whatever reason, despite all your hard work being the best parent you knew how to be, still chooses the wrong path in life and eventually, after many years of tormenting you and other, winds up killing someone. Just 'cause.

It happens. I have read about it. I have seen it. I read about a mother with a child similar to Jodi, even worse actually, who tried so hard to help her child. She took him to therapy and tried to help him at home. The child was just destined to be that way. Your logic seems to be that if a person turns out "bad" that there must be someone in their past to blame for it. Not always.

 

[lil_buddy]

How does one come off as male or female? Sometimes it's easy to tell by the name as to the gender. But how does one come off as a certain sex?

A certain machismo, a certain arrogance.....

Ah. This is how superior deductive logic and inference work.

... actually bias and prejudice and completely lacking in predictive power. Disordered.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No, the credit is not wholly his; it is partly yours. Suppose you were far different to what you are : Supposing you were both abusive and neglectful, in many ways. Suppose he often witnessed you drunk or violent; in addition, you scapegoated him and blamed him for things that were your fault, not his. In addition, you had many inappropriate people in the house, some of whom harmed him. Would it be owing to his own free will if he came out of such a situation highly conflicted and depressed? People can take credit for much of what they do and are; they must also give their parents due credit, for good and for ill.

My job as a parent has been incredibly easy. I was very fortunate to be raised by loving parents that loved each other, that never yelled, screamed or laid a hand on me that I can recall. ( My mother says I was spanked once for pulling away from her in a busy parking lot and swatted my bottom when she caught up to me.) they didn't smoke, drink and I was unable to divide and conquer like so many of my friends were able to do. As a teen, I felt they were overprotective, too strict and very very boring....But I respected them anyway because they always respected me.
I didn't have to read books or overcome a chaotic home life, or abuse, neglect or dysfunction. Raising my son has been the most rewarding and pleasurable experience of my life, it has ...so far... (Knocking on wood)... Been exceptionally easy.

I do recognize the enormous hurdles others must overcome to be good parents.



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[oceanblueeyes]

Suppose you had a child and you were just as perfect a parent as you were to your other children. You nurtured them and showed affection. You tried your best to teach them right from wrong and discipline when you saw fit. You tried to instill a motivation and encouraged them to follow their dreams and work hard and be successful. But that child still, for whatever reason, despite all your hard work being the best parent you knew how to be, still chooses the wrong path in life and eventually, after many years of tormenting you and other, winds up killing someone. Just 'cause.

It happens. I have read about it. I have seen it. I read about a mother with a child similar to Jodi, even worse actually, who tried so hard to help her child. She took him to therapy and tried to help him at home. The child was just destined to be that way. Your logic seems to be that if a person turns out "bad" that there must be someone in their past to blame for it. Not always.

ETA: this responded to the wrong post. It was meant for human.

Bravo!

I'm not about to blame anyone else for the behavior of Jodi Arias.

We had a mother who has posted right here on this thread that has talked openly and honestly about what she has endure with her own son. She has done everything humanly possible trying to help him but sometimes some just cant be fixed. They are what they are and always will be.

IMO

 

[SMK]

Ah. This is how superior deductive logic and inference work.

Yip

 

[SMK]

My job as a parent has been incredibly easy. I was very fortunate to be raised by loving parents that loved each other, that never yelled, screamed or laid a hand on me that I can recall. ( My mother says I was spanked once for pulling away from her in a busy parking lot and swatted my bottom when she caught up to me.) they didn't smoke, drink and I was unable to divide and conquer like so many of my friends were able to do. As a teen, I felt they were overprotective, too strict and very very boring....But I respected them anyway because they always respected me.
I didn't have to read books or overcome a chaotic home life, or abuse, neglect or dysfunction. Raising my son has been the most rewarding and pleasurable experience of my life, it has ...so far... (Knocking on wood)... Been exceptionally easy.

I do recognize the enormous hurdles others must overcome to be good parents.



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You have been fortunate all the way around; I am glad for you, and glad that you see it.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Bravo!

I'm not about to blame anyone else for the behavior of Jodi Arias.

We had a mother who has posted right here on this thread that has talked openly and honestly about what she has endure with her own son. She has done everything humanly possible trying to help him but sometimes some just cant be fixed. They are what they are and always will be.

IMO

Ocean, I think I shared this with you long long ago when following another case where a child was a cold blooded murderer. I too have seen it with my own eyes... Twice in 25 years. The first was a 9 year old that appeared to be a wonderful thoughtful considerate child...until he set his alarm, woke up in the middle of the night, got a gas can from the garage, poured it outside of the bedroom doors of his mother and sister while they slept... The hallways...etc. They did escape, his grandmother...did not.

That child had zero remorse. Matter of fact ...he was intent with seeing his grandmothers burnt corpse and asked everyone that came in contact with him about that.

That child spent a year and a half in a RTC and returned to his mother. Returned to public school. He was getting into some trouble there and they left the state.

I often search his name online. Haven't heard the last from that one. IMO

IMO he was scary similar to what I see in Jodi.

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[SMK]

Ah. This is how superior deductive logic and inference work.

... actually bias and prejudice and completely lacking in predictive power. Disordered.

Really appalling and uncalled for, considering what you are referring to. Ugh.

 

[Linda7NJ]

You have been fortunate all the way around; I am glad for you, and glad that you see it.

Yes I agree.

That doesn't mean we haven't endured and survived some pretty big obstacles and trauma I'm just glad we asked for and received the help we needed and we had the tools to implement the help.


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[ATasteOfHoney]

Part of the flaw in thinking that children who are abused or not raised under ideal standards may grow up to be personality disordered is this:

Let's say JA is BPD. Her viewpoint about who is supportive of her and who is "abusive" changes from day to day.......and this could have started from when she was very young. JA may have perceived the smallest of slights as things so large they were earth-shattering.

Case in point, JA talked about getting a swat once in a while with her Mom's spoon. To claim that as being a pattern of physical abuse is quite a stretch and yet, to JA it is that intense of an issue.

Parents are not the sole cause for how a child turns out. Genetics are not the sole cause either. There's a lot at play.

But to those who get into a quandry about the genetic aspect and how it is not "fair" and who falsely assume that some posters suggest we should genocide those with disorders is just a ridiculous leap. No one is suggesting that here that I've seen.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Yes I agree.

That doesn't mean we haven't endured and survived some pretty big obstacles and trauma I'm just glad we asked for and received the help we needed and we had the tools to implement the help.


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I'm so glad you and your son got the help you both needed Linda.

One of my most crowning achievements in my eyes is that we raised five children who are exceptional children. Of course no child is perfect but all and all I cant say parenting was that hard when they were growing up. It does my heart good that they don't know what it is to suffer abuse even though they are aware that I did.

I was an overprotective mom.........I will admit that... which came from me being abused, but little by little I learned to trust them, and their decision making and gave them their wings. They never disappointed us nor betrayed that trust.

We did set ground rules that they had to follow and never gave them everything they wanted. They certainly knew that 'no' meant 'no' and there would be no further discussions. We wanted them to know that time being spent together with family and friends is much more valuable than any material thing they could ever have.

Now they are grown and so well grounded and totally family oriented. They all have children of their own and now they teach what they were taught and it shows through our grandchildren too.

I know we have not only been lucky to have the children we do but blessed beyond words. Sometimes I wonder if it was how we raised them or if they as individuals were very self disciplined children on their own. They seem to have always set goals and kept them. They always seemed to know that telling the truth was much better than making up a lie.

I don't know if I should take any credit for how they turned out or if they themselves deserve all the accolades.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Right: Hats off to them. But can someone who was born with a badly programmed and poorly wired brain overcome that without parental help? Can they overcome that, period?[/QUOTE]

Yes......there are many posters on this thread that have commented to that effect.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Ocean, I think I shared this with you long long ago when following another case where a child was a cold blooded murderer. I too have seen it with my own eyes... Twice in 25 years. The first was a 9 year old that appeared to be a wonderful thoughtful considerate child...until he set his alarm, woke up in the middle of the night, got a gas can from the garage, poured it outside of the bedroom doors of his mother and sister while they slept... The hallways...etc. They did escape, his grandmother...did not.

That child had zero remorse. Matter of fact ...he was intent with seeing his grandmothers burnt corpse and asked everyone that came in contact with him about that.

That child spent a year and a half in a RTC and returned to his mother. Returned to public school. He was getting into some trouble there and they left the state.

I often search his name online. Haven't heard the last from that one. IMO

IMO he was scary similar to what I see in Jodi.

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Yes, you did tell me about that chilling case.

And as you and I know he is not the only very young child that has chilled us to the bone.

IMO