Pontiac: The odor, sealing off & processing the car #2

[JBean]

I think that LE initially didn't have probable cause to get a search warrant for the car - they were looking for a living child - driving KC around looking for "nanny's apartment" and "nanny's mothers apartment"....

If you take a moment to listen to the bond hearing he did not need a SW to take the car. As a matter of fact, he seemed to be making a point that he was working cooperatively with CA and GA and did not want to force them to give anything up by way of a search warrant. he did not want them to think he was viewing them ina bad light. So he just asked for what he needed and they were more than happy to oblige in an effort to aid the investigation to find their granddaughter. There us also a copy of the affadavit signed by george at 9:30pm on the 16th in the very first doc dump.(I think it is the first one)

 

[cecybeans]

Couple points...


As for the "So what, big deal?" aspect of not sealing the Pontiac. It does give the defense the opportunity - ala OJ - to suggest evidence was planted by LE. As ridiculous as that sounds... they can go w/ the, "LE already had their mind made up..." angle. Hey - it worked once. :doh:

respectfully snipped by me

Thanks for again laying out the timeline in a way that is easily visualized.

I would think, however, that if the defense would suggest someone planted (or removed) evidence, the most logical place to look would be the parents and not LE. It was in their custody up until LE sealed it. If they had sealed it up and impounded it immediately, I can still hear the defense making the same objection about how LE had already made up their minds it was KC and Caylee was dead, instead of looking for a missing child as per her claim.

And I still say that LE knew immediately its worth as a pristine piece of evidence was already tainted by CA's admission of being inside it and removing items of her own interest. It was already contaminated to an unknown degree and so its biggest value at that juncture was solely as a possible place for decomp, since other evidence had been removed or destroyed.

Since GA and CA explained they had removed items from the car, and had checked in the trunk, I think LE figured they did not need to search it for a body. Supposedly it was still open in the garage airing out. If the rents had found Caylee in the car, we all know there would have been no 911 call, so LE probably thought it was not critical to take it out of their custody, since the damage was already done to the inculpatory value of the contents in court.

 

[JBean]

Couple points...

FWIW...IMHO, as I read Yuri's narrative it suggests that he knew before he got to G&C's the first time that the Sawgrass apt. story was already suspect based on the 7/15PM work that told them the apt. had been empty. Then he read Casey's statement and told her up front that she could change her story.

I'm taking his narrative account as a better indication of the sequence of events where it may conflict w/ the later GA interview re: exactly when George commented 'bout the smell. His narrative indicates George approached him when he dropped Casey back @ the house (est. ~<6:48AM) vs. when he first arrived ~4:11AM, IMHO.

I'm guessing that when Casey & Yuri left Yuri may have been the last LEO out. Also assuming Yuri got direction from Sgt. Allen, or at least they discussed it, on the next priority after leaving Casey @ the house as Yuri mentioned it in his narrative.

.

snipped for emphasis

Oh you may very well be right bond and you raise an excellent point..
Maybe I am taking YM statement too literally when he was talking to GA in the 7/24 interview.

YM: [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]One thing I&#8217;ve been meaning to ask, and I apologize maybe this isn&#8217;t a good time, but only because this might be the only, I don&#8217;t know how often we&#8217;ll be able to sit and talk. When I first saw you that night when I first came to your house there was a mention of the car. And there was a mention of what you smelled in the car. [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Arial]http://cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Anthony%20%20George0724.pdf[/FONT]

 

[BondJamesBond]

snipped for emphasis

Oh you may very well be right bond and you raise an excellent point..
Maybe I am taking YM statement too literally when he was talking to GA in the 7/24 interview.

YM: [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]One thing I’ve been meaning to ask, and I apologize maybe this isn’t a good time, but only because this might be the only, I don’t know how often we’ll be able to sit and talk. When I first saw you that night when I first came to your house there was a mention of the car. And there was a mention of what you smelled in the car. [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Arial]http://cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Anthony%20%20George0724.pdf[/FONT]

IKWYM, JB. I'm just takin the narrative the same way

Guess a ridiculous scenario that would make both pass muster would be if Yuri didn't see George when he arrived to interview Casey...and then saw him for the first time when he dropped Casey off. Make sense?

Yuri's narrative and the cell phone activity kinda makes it seem that he arrived, read the statement, conducted Casey's interview, then, off they went :takeoff: Hard to imagine him not seeing Cindy but maybe George was otherwise occupied. :waitasec:

 

[BondJamesBond]

respectfully snipped by me

Thanks for again laying out the timeline in a way that is easily visualized.

I would think, however, that if the defense would suggest someone planted (or removed) evidence, the most logical place to look would be the parents and not LE. It was in their custody up until LE sealed it. If they had sealed it up and impounded it immediately, I can still hear the defense making the same objection about how LE had already made up their minds it was KC and Caylee was dead, instead of looking for a missing child as per her claim.

And I still say that LE knew immediately its worth as a pristine piece of evidence was already tainted by CA's admission of being inside it and removing items of her own interest. It was already contaminated to an unknown degree and so its biggest value at that juncture was solely as a possible place for decomp, since other evidence had been removed or destroyed.

Since GA and CA explained they had removed items from the car, and had checked in the trunk, I think LE figured they did not need to search it for a body. Supposedly it was still open in the garage airing out. If the rents had found Caylee in the car, we all know there would have been no 911 call, so LE probably thought it was not critical to take it out of their custody, since the damage was already done to the inculpatory value of the contents in court.

Sure, CB. When you put it that way...the horse was already outta the barn, eh?

An under-the-bus Cindy wouldn't be too much of a stretch for the defense now would it?

 

[JBean]

IKWYM, JB. I'm just takin the narrative the same way

Guess a ridiculous scenario that would make both pass muster would be if Yuri didn't see George when he arrived to interview Casey...and then saw him for the first time when he dropped Casey off. Make sense?

Yuri's narrative and the cell phone activity kinda makes it seem that he arrived, read the statement, conducted Casey's interview, then, off they went :takeoff: Hard to imagine him not seeing Cindy but maybe George was otherwise occupied. :waitasec:

Oh i totally see what you are saying and it could be accurate. the only thing that makes it even a bit ambiguos is "when I first came to your house". If he didn't say that, which i admittedly could be taking too literally and he misspoke in a way, then I would have no problem thinking that he did not actually see george for the first time until later.
Poor YM, little did he know his word choice would be such a topic LOL.
I still think that while it does could shrink the timeline which would be a very good thing, we are still talking about hours and hours passing.Early morning (6:48 ish)until at least late afternoon (4:33) or at most early evening.(7:30 ish)

 

[BondJamesBond]

FYI, JBean :blowkiss: was kind enough to port some info from this thread over to a new thread in the Case Analysis forum where we'll continue focus on the timeline of events between the 911 calls 7/15 and Casey's arrest 7/16. Will bring any info specific to the Pontiac sealing/processing back here for completeness.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93000"]Events Post 911 Calls Up to 7-16 Arrest - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[BondJamesBond]

FYI...perhaps biggest "risk" to the unsealed Pontiac... w/ Casey unoccupied by her cell... and having access to the garage and Cindy potentially being down the street visiting Brittany occurred @ 10:21AM 7/16.

Explained here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4591411&postcount=32"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Events Post 911 Calls Up to 7-16 Arrest[/ame]

 

[cecybeans]

FYI...perhaps biggest "risk" to the unsealed Pontiac... w/ Casey unoccupied by her cell... and having access to the garage and Cindy potentially being down the street visiting Brittany occurred @ 10:21AM 7/16.

Explained here: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Events Post 911 Calls Up to 7-16 Arrest

Thanks - that helps to isolate when she may not have been supervised. Does this dovetail with computer activity as well? I swear, she would have been the first person to buy a waterproof cellphone so she could take a shower and text or talk.

 

[BondJamesBond]

My apologies for bein' lazy and not quoting the pertinent post, but, IIRC it was provided earlier that Yuri spoke to George and got a verbal to pick up the car.

Still working on other 7/16 events, but, re: the timing of this conversation, hence, a timestamp that might help frame it in just a bit...the only record of a phone conversation we have between Yuri and George 7/16 is @ 11:54AM details here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4615450&postcount=57"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Events Post 911 Calls Up to 7-16 Arrest[/ame]

While it is possible Yuri spoke to George via the house phone - for which we don't have records 7/16 - it appears unlikely as sleuthing seems to put George away from home by mid-day.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Thanks - that helps to isolate when she may not have been supervised. Does this dovetail with computer activity as well? I swear, she would have been the first person to buy a waterproof cellphone so she could take a shower and text or talk.

Cecy...I'm gonna defer to one of the others more intimate w/ the computer forensics. IIRC, Lee was setting up the CayleeIsMissing site, etc. and the computer activity tracks that...but I don't have those detailed records myself.

 

[The World According]

Good to have you home Bond!!

 

[The World According]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4xncv32tIk[/ame]

 

[Searchfortruth]

Trying to figure out the delay in securing the car by LE... I don't remember Cindy, George or Lee mentioning the horrible smell of Casey's car in their written statements. If this is incorrect please advise. Anyway, it puzzles me if there is nothing in there about the smell because these statements were taken early on (10 pm on the 15th). We know the smell was a big issue at the towyard and during the 911 call, but nothing is mentioned in the statements. I wonder just how much they talked about the smell once LE arrived that night. Yes, there is Yuri's statement about George mentioning it to him, but I think (just like he mentioned Casey's untruthfullness the next day), he might have brought this up when he was away from the family...in private, and I am unsure of the time.

I know there was a lot of activity that night/ next day and the officers were initially responding to a missing child call, but if there were some omissions by the family, it might help explain the delay in taking the car. I would think that had they, the A's, stressed the smell (coupled with the missing child report) the officers would have made sure they wrote about that in their statements, and maybe the car would have been picked up sooner ?

 

[Tulessa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4xncv32tIk

BBM
Two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of my car and they, um, died in there.

That has to be a first. I just caught that. If they are dead, how did they crawl?:waitasec:

 

[jon_burrows]

Why isn't the state charging them with obstruction of justice then? Who was he hiding it from? This makes no sense. I think the fact that Le didn't even take the smell seriously until late the next day, proves that they didn't think anything of it. If it trully smelled like a dead body in the trunk, they should have secured that vehicle immediatley.

I agree though, it would be a good thread. So far we have inconsistent statements threads , but do we have an obstruction of justice thread?

The state may charge them with obstruction of justice after Casey’s trial. I can’t see the state wanting to get tangled up in an obstruction case until after the murder trial.

I have no doubt the car smelled like a dead body because multiple sources confirmed the same conclusion. I’ve wondered why LE didn’t secure the car immediately. Here’s my theory, LE know (generally speaking) they have a limited amount of time to talk to potential suspects before they lawyer up then refuse to answer questions. I have no doubt that LE knew Caylee was deceased the minute they walked into the house but they had a family willing to talk. More importantly, Casey was willing to talk and everyone knew (family & LE) she held the answers. LE had a choice to make. Do they make a scene by securing the car (knowing it had already been contaminated and was sitting in the garage for hours, also knowing the smell would be there for a very long time) or do they go along with Casey’s lies and let her lead them all over Orlando telling lie after lie, basically letting her hang herself. I really do think LE thought they would be able to get her to confess and take them to the body. Instead, they got the next best thing (easily disproven lie upon lie) from Casey.

IMO

 

[Imbackon]

The state may charge them with obstruction of justice after Casey’s trial. I can’t see the state wanting to get tangled up in an obstruction case until after the murder trial.

I have no doubt the car smelled like a dead body because multiple sources confirmed the same conclusion. I’ve wondered why LE didn’t secure the car immediately. Here’s my theory, LE know (generally speaking) they have a limited amount of time to talk to potential suspects before they lawyer up then refuse to answer questions. I have no doubt that LE knew Caylee was deceased the minute they walked into the house but they had a family willing to talk. More importantly, Casey was willing to talk and everyone knew (family & LE) she held the answers. LE had a choice to make. Do they make a scene by securing the car (knowing it had already been contaminated and was sitting in the garage for hours, also knowing the smell would be there for a very long time) or do they go along with Casey’s lies and let her lead them all over Orlando telling lie after lie, basically letting her hang herself. I really do think LE thought they would be able to get her to confess and take them to the body. Instead, they got the next best thing (easily disproven lie upon lie) from Casey.

IMO

Yes! Very well put. the way LE felt they HAD TO TREAT KC, was exactly the way CA and GA have treated her most of her life. I'm sure they took cues from the family on this, and as CA said, eventually KC tells her the truth. She probably passed that tidbit on to the police early on. They all knew she was the one with the answers, and they needed to walk on egg shells for awhile.
The only difference between KC and the other parents (mothers actually) that kill their children, is she never fessed up. I'm sure LE was surprised at this.

 

[JBean]

Why isn't the state charging them with obstruction of justice then? Who was he hiding it from? This makes no sense. I think the fact that Le didn't even take the smell seriously until late the next day, proves that they didn't think anything of it. If it trully smelled like a dead body in the trunk, they should have secured that vehicle immediatley.

I agree though, it would be a good thread. So far we have inconsistent statements threads , but do we have an obstruction of justice thread?

I agree with you on the car. That is something i will never understand. They did not think much of it and why that is may remain a mystery.
Way back at the beginning I thought that they didn't seal off the car because the perhaps the car did not smell as bad as everyone was saying. but there have been too many reports since thenfrom all sides of the fence saying that car stunk and there is no doubt in my mind that it is fact.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92537&highlight=pontiac

We have had at many ,many,many obstruction threads. Personally i don't think they will ever be charged. jmho of course.

 

[JBean]

The state may charge them with obstruction of justice after Casey&#8217;s trial. I can&#8217;t see the state wanting to get tangled up in an obstruction case until after the murder trial.

I have no doubt the car smelled like a dead body because multiple sources confirmed the same conclusion. I&#8217;ve wondered why LE didn&#8217;t secure the car immediately. Here&#8217;s my theory, LE know (generally speaking) they have a limited amount of time to talk to potential suspects before they lawyer up then refuse to answer questions. I have no doubt that LE knew Caylee was deceased the minute they walked into the house but they had a family willing to talk. More importantly, Casey was willing to talk and everyone knew (family & LE) she held the answers. LE had a choice to make. Do they make a scene by securing the car (knowing it had already been contaminated and was sitting in the garage for hours, also knowing the smell would be there for a very long time) or do they go along with Casey&#8217;s lies and let her lead them all over Orlando telling lie after lie, basically letting her hang herself. I really do think LE thought they would be able to get her to confess and take them to the body. Instead, they got the next best thing (easily disproven lie upon lie) from Casey.

IMO

Why would it have been a scene sealing off the car? the 2 most vocal and the only ones that thought the car smelling like a dead body was a big deal were Cindy and George.LE actually gave Casey access to the car alone.
here is a better thread for this though:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92537&highlight=pontiac

 

[cyberborg]

I agree with you on the car. That is something i will never understand. They did not think much of it and why that is may remain a mystery.
Way back at the beginning I thought that they didn't seal off the car because the perhaps the car did not smell as bad as everyone was saying. but there have been too many reports since thenfrom all sides of the fence saying that car stunk and there is no doubt in my mind that it is fact.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92537&highlight=pontiac

We have had at many ,many,many obstruction threads. Personally i don't think they will ever be charged. jmho of course.

I agree. There was a general lack of control in those first few hours. I was similiarly surprised by LA going for KC's things and them being emptied out in the house and CA taking money. LE was around because it was reported that some ID or card was confiscated by them although I have never seen anything in discovery on what that was.

Maybe focusing on KC LE thought it would bring a quicker resolution to locating Caylee but there were a lot of opportunities in those first few hours.

I don't think the A's will ever be charged of anything, the focus is KC and if convicted that'll be it.