Position of arms

[Summergirl]

Well, if he tied her hands to restrain her, there would be scraping and/or bruising on her wrists from it. I'm sure she would have tried to pull her hands down to fight him off, especially once he turned to sexually abusing her, definitely when she was being asphyxiated. Weren't there some marks on her neck consistent with her trying to relieve the pressure of the cord suffocating her? If there were, and that's what those marks are from, then she wasn't restrained by the wrists during the murder.

Saldy, in the autopsy photos, she tried getting the cord around her neck off of her. There are fingernail marks on her neck. How sad.

I think she was kncoed out by a Stun Gun and while she was knocked out, put the cord on her hands.

 

[lannie]

No stun gun, this was never evedience, why not stick to what was present, she was almost dead from being strangled,I then hit in the head, so need to stun gun her, besides stun guns do not knok you out,yes the marks sure did look like they may of came from her,but none of her blood or skin was under her nails,some people think the cresent shapes came from a ring Pat would wear backwards or it twisted on the finger.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I agree, there's really no evidence a stun gun was used. A couple of unexplained marks do not a stun gun crime make.

Why would the killer tie her hands to restrain her while he strangled her but not tight enough to prevent her from clawing at her own neck while he strangled her? That's not restraint. And if she was stun gunned, did the strangulation revive her enough to try to remove the object closing off her neck? I don't see how else that could work.

 

[Nehemiah]

If there's no damage to her wrists from the cord being around them, that surely suggests staging...same as with the tape over her mouth. When tested, it showed no signs of having been present over her lips while she was alive, meaning it hadn't been struggled against. I'm willing to bet the wrists were bound after she died. Were there any defense wounds on her hands or arms? If this was an intruder hurting her, I guarantee she would have tried to fight him off.

I'm not where I can get to a book to verify this, but didn't John state that the cord was tied very tightly around her wrist?

 

[Rupert]

Well, if he tied her hands to restrain her, there would be scraping and/or bruising on her wrists from it. I'm sure she would have tried to pull her hands down to fight him off, especially once he turned to sexually abusing her, definitely when she was being asphyxiated. Weren't there some marks on her neck consistent with her trying to relieve the pressure of the cord suffocating her? If there were, and that's what those marks are from, then she wasn't restrained by the wrists during the murder.

Bang on! I was going to say no need to analyze the cuts of the cord, but look how obvious the following picture is:

(Thanks Jams)

It is obvious that the cord wrapped around the garrote was melted at the end. This wasn't done during the tousle which bound JonBenet's hair up in the cord. No indeed. It must have been done before and therefore the cord around the garrote was prepared first. In contrast, the cord around the wrists were both frayed by a knife cut. Thus the cord around the wrists was prepared after the garrote and after the hair was bound up in a tousle. It is now obvious to me that the tying of the hands was nothing but staging.

That is absolutely consistent with the point made above by nuisanceposter: that JonBenet must have had her hands free in order to grab at the cord around her neck. They could not have been tied up when she was garroted.

Leaving that melted end of the cord was an oversight.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm not where I can get to a book to verify this, but didn't John state that the cord was tied very tightly around her wrist?

I consider John Ramsey to be less than truthful when it comes to talking about his daughter's murder in the first place. In the picture Rupert has linked us to, the cord appears to be tied around but not exactly tight on JonBenet's wrist. Odd how it was tied over her sleeve cuff. I haven't ever tied any children up, but I would know that you don't tie their wrists over their cuffs because it would create too much give. You would tie the cord tight down to the skin if you were tying her wrists to restrain her while you abused and strangled her, or else she might be able to work it loose and get her hand free. And if she was able to grab at the cord around her neck as she was being strangled, that tells you right there that her wrists were not bound to restrain her hands...it was added later as staging.

 

[lannie]

your right she was tied to nicely ,that cord over the sleeve is just to pretty, she never struggled after it was tied to her, no wonder the FBI said look at the parents.

 

[UKGuy]

An interpretation of JonBenet's homicide that I lean towards is, rather than that of a simple Intruder or Ramsey did it, is that of either an accident or unplanned homicide that is then covered up with multiple stagings.

An example of an accident would be Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory, an unplanned homicide could be BlueCrab's theory that JonBenet was taking part in some form of Erotic Asphyxiation activity that went disastrously wrong.

JonBenet's arms may be above her head because prior to death that is where they were, either by design or circumstance.

By design would include being tied as a form of restraint, or constrained say by a pillow or other item. By circumstance would be her choice to raise her arms to rest above her head, or an attempt to release or relax the tension in a noose.

It may be that the original role of the cord is different from its final appearance. Its original purpose may simply have been that of a restraint. Or it may have played no part in her death.

That is the noose, the broken paintbrush, are part of the consequent staging, the difficulty is deciding which part, since there was probably two and possibly three or more staging episodes.

If you look over the photographs linked by Rupert, and concentrate on the neck injuries, then you may note that there are more injuries and abrasions to her neck, these exceed that of a straight forward noose asphyxiation. That is her asphyxiation may have been achieved by some other item.

Some of the items found in wine-cellar were available in the basement e.g. paintbrush , duct-tape, the cord may or may not have originated in the basement. If you consider the trouble taken to partially stage and remove forensic evidence, then its valid to assume the inclusion of her Barbie-Gown was intended to play a part in her final staging. The person who had final access to JonBenet's body could have removed the Barbie-Gown as he/she left the wine-cellar and simply tossed it aside, or placed it in the laundry-room. But unlike her size-6 underwear, and possibly her socks, it remained!

The relevant point being you dont decide to abduct and asphyxiate a 6-year old girl simply employing material that comes to hand, found by chance, in a dark basement. Similarly if you are either a Ramsey or an intruder, and intend to engage JonBenet in some form of Erotic Asphyxiation, you dont rush down to the basement to look for a piece of wood, and if you are a Ramsey, surely you dont use one of Patsy's painbrushes, knowing full well, its one of her hobbies and interests. And if you are Burke and experienced in whittling wood, then you will have something to hand or can construct something more purposeful than a broken paintbrush, and do it in a planned manner.

So if her arms are above her head this may simply be a rigor-mortis posture, or it may be a consequence of her being posed as part of the first episode in her staging, which becomes a post-mortem posture, this is possible since her arms are still above her head after being wrapped in the white blanket. This posing may have been intended to obscure that her arms were initially above her head as a form of restraint, but the relocation of her body, makes that posing obvious, so the white cord is tied over her white sleeves and around her wrists. This staging suggestion may be confirmed if you consider as JonBenet was being asphyxiated, we can all assume she vigorously attempted to avoid this, but the white cord tied around the arms of her white gap top, show no sign of movement or disturbance, that is the loop is neat and there are no signs of a struggle or abrasions on her wrists!

So it appears JonBenet's hands may have been above her head simply because she was originally restrained in that manner.

The purpose of her restraint is open to speculation, but her posture would appear to suggest she was originally lying on a bed.

 

[Shanny]

I have 2 questions about the cord

1. Where in the house did the cord come from ? Did the police ever look into that?
Because to me the cord looks like a shoe string

2. Autopsy Report:
[Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the
shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which
measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail
of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double
loop knot.]
People wonder why the cord was tied so loosely around Jonbenet's wrist, I am wondering could it have been from John trying to untie her arms when he found her ?

 

[Rupert]

I have 2 questions about the cord

1. Where in the house did the cord come from ? Did the police ever look into that?
Because to me the cord looks like a shoe string
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote4.jpg

2. Autopsy Report:
[Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the
shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which
measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail
of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double
loop knot.]
People wonder why the cord was tied so loosely around Jonbenet's wrist, I am wondering could it have been from John trying to untie her arms when he found her ?

Maybe it was loose because JR untied it somewhat. But, fact is that the cord was tied around her sleeve and not her wrist.

Fact is that the melted end starts on the garrote which suggests to me that the garrote was tied first. Wouldn't you want to restrain the arms first? And as brilliantly pointed out by Nusianceposter: the arms MUST HAVE BEEN FREE to leave the fingernail marks on her neck by the cord line (an autopsy fact). ALL this points preponderantly to the fact that the arms were raised and tied abover her head and this was indeed STAGING.

 

[UKGuy]

I have 2 questions about the cord

1. Where in the house did the cord come from ? Did the police ever look into that?
Because to me the cord looks like a shoe string

2. Autopsy Report:
[Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the
shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which
measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail
of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double
loop knot.]
People wonder why the cord was tied so loosely around Jonbenet's wrist, I am wondering could it have been from John trying to untie her arms when he found her ?

Shanny,

This is possible but both JR's and FW's description of finding the body is that JR likely removed the piece of duct tape, which FW went back and retrieved for some unknown reason, then JR lifted JonBenet's body holding her upright and followed FW up the stairs. Once upstairs I dont think anyone attempted to remove any bindings.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe it was loose because JR untied it somewhat. But, fact is that the cord was tied around her sleeve and not her wrist.

Fact is that the melted end starts on the garrote which suggests to me that the garrote was tied first. Wouldn't you want to restrain the arms first? And as brilliantly pointed out by Nusianceposter: the arms MUST HAVE BEEN FREE to leave the fingernail marks on her neck by the cord line (an autopsy fact). ALL this points preponderantly to the fact that the arms were raised and tied abover her head and this was indeed STAGING.

Rupert,

I am bound to agree with you, no pun intended there. Interpreting the wine-cellar crime-scene as staged is significant, since it allows you to consider other avenues.

Since her hands were above her head, and if you dont consider this to be the result of circumstance and rigor-mortis, then it may be possible to view her prior posture as an example of post-homicide posing?

The person who left her in her final position may have undone a previous staging where she was sitting, bound by her arms or neck to some item of furniture, or simply hogtied, say on a bed, since her feet and ankles were bare, when she was discovered, but this does not mean the cord may not have encircled her socks in the same manner they did the sleeves of her white gap top?

An interesting question is from where is it likely that JonBenet's body was relocated, since who ever did so, realized there was something wrong with that location, and also proceeded with additional staging?

 

[Rupert]

Rupert,

I am bound to agree with you, no pun intended there. Interpreting the wine-cellar crime-scene as staged is significant, since it allows you to consider other avenues.

Since her hands were above her head, and if you dont consider this to be the result of circumstance and rigor-mortis, then it may be possible to view her prior posture as an example of post-homicide posing?

The person who left her in her final position may have undone a previous staging where she was sitting, bound by her arms or neck to some item of furniture, or simply hogtied, say on a bed, since her feet and ankles were bare, when she was discovered, but this does not mean the cord may not have encircled her socks in the same manner they did the sleeves of her white gap top?

An interesting question is from where is it likely that JonBenet's body was relocated, since who ever did so, realized there was something wrong with that location, and also proceeded with additional staging?

UKGuy,
I just cannot speculate any further as you have until I see evidence of prior staging. It just seems pure and simple to me that she was first garroted and then had her hands tied up behind her head. I can start to ask the question why the perp would do this and speculate that the reason was to make it look like a sexual bondage thing. But why the sexual bondage thing? I mean, I thought this was about $118k. Maybe it was to diffuse and divert attention away from an accident or maybe on the other hand to make a particular statement.

The statement thing with the Barbie Doll makes me intrigued. Should they check out the Prohet again? If it was an intruder, I believe it was a statement. If it was RDI, then it was either a clumsy cover up or an intimate statement.

 

[Nehemiah]

Rupert,

I am bound to agree with you, no pun intended there. Interpreting the wine-cellar crime-scene as staged is significant, since it allows you to consider other avenues.

Since her hands were above her head, and if you dont consider this to be the result of circumstance and rigor-mortis, then it may be possible to view her prior posture as an example of post-homicide posing?

The person who left her in her final position may have undone a previous staging where she was sitting, bound by her arms or neck to some item of furniture, or simply hogtied, say on a bed, since her feet and ankles were bare, when she was discovered, but this does not mean the cord may not have encircled her socks in the same manner they did the sleeves of her white gap top?

An interesting question is from where is it likely that JonBenet's body was relocated, since who ever did so, realized there was something wrong with that location, and also proceeded with additional staging?

Which brings me back around to John Walsh's comment that "JR cut her down." We never knew if that were a mistake on his part, or inside information that he had been privy to and blurted out. That would fall in line with what you are saying, UK Guy.

 

[UKGuy]

Which brings me back around to John Walsh's comment that "JR cut her down." We never knew if that were a mistake on his part, or inside information that he had been privy to and blurted out. That would fall in line with what you are saying, UK Guy.

Nehemiah,

Yes, assuming John Walsh's comment was not uninformed speculation. The difficult part is disentangling the staging from what may have taken place.

The person who staged the wine-cellar was attempting to obscure and re-pose JonBenet with another scene in mind, thats why I always remind people her barbie nightgown was found beside her body, and that was not accidental, particularly when you consider the probability that other items such as her origiinal underwear or socks may have been removed.

If JR had "cut her down", then seems reasonable to assume she was constrained in some manner, either by her neck or/and arms.

She may have been indecently posed, and a charitable interpretation is that JR decided to redress and relocate her prior to allowing her to be discovered, this is a common occurence in domestic homicides, particularly those involving erotic asphyxiation.

But I speculate that it was a now prior staging that no longer fitted the revised circumstances and was possibly at variance with some of the contents of the ransom note, that led to JonBenet being relocated to the wine-cellar, which in the stagers mind was a temporary location, once redressed, she could be relocated to a more appropriate environment.

Although there are no abrasions from cord on her wrists or ankles this does not rule out her being constrained in such a manner, possibly to some device, or household item, this may explain the abrasions on her ankles , back, and neck, possibly as the result of the pressure from knots or points on the device, e.g. bedposts. She may have been partially dressed, still wearing her socks, also just suppose someone has decided to redress her, he/she just grabs her white gap top, since it lying close, and opens her dresser drawer for those size-12 underwear, now that person was not looking for new undwerwear they were looking for the Wednesday day-of-the-week pair, this was the rationale here, not the size, the color, or how new they were!

So summarizing I dont think JonBenet, was discovered by the wine-cellar stager hanging by her wrists, since she has no abrasions or rope burns on her wrists, also during her strangulation her hands must have been free to fight against it.

So either the white cord is wholly staging, including the length encircling her neck, or it played a part in her prior staging, where she was potrayed as bound and tethered, possibly hogtied, even indecently, all as the result of some imagined or actual criminal process!

 

[Nehemiah]

That was a very thought-provoking post.

How would one account for liver mortis in your scenario?

So, are you theorizing that she was murdered and staged, and someone different came along and re-staged?

The thought about the panties sounds like the best explanation I've heard: the perp was just looking for that day of the week, because it was Wednesday. We've often wondered why he/she chose a large size panty, but that would account for that reason.

 

[Becba]

The autopsy doesn't agree with her being hung by her arms. John Walsh may have spoke what he was suspecting at the time.

I recall when 2 girls were kidnapped from their boyfriends and a spokesperson was saying they did not believe the boyfriends and they looked drugged up. The police did not even help the guys get untied from the duct tape. Turned out they were kidnapped and their abducter was shot on a high speed chase.
Just saying people in the know do make judgements and they can be wrong .

 

[Nehemiah]

It would not make sense for a staging to tie the hands and rest them down on her chest. It would make more sense to position them over her head.

If it was an intruder, then surely the perp would tie her hands above her head while she was stunned, so as to immobilize her.

She was no doubt garroted face down. If her hands were tied then, they must have been raised above her head. Otherwise the autopsy would have pointed something out.

Rupert, those are excellent points to consider. If one came into her bedroom, stunned her, knocked her in the head or whatever it took to immobilize her...doesn't it seem unnatural and some what of bother to pull her arms up and tie? Isn't it simpler to just pull them behind her back and tie them together? Unless she were suspended in some way, I can't envision a reason for tying her arms above her head. Any ideas that I'm missing?

 

[Nehemiah]

The autopsy doesn't agree with her being hung by her arms. John Walsh may have spoke what he was suspecting at the time.

I recall when 2 girls were kidnapped from their boyfriends and a spokesperson was saying they did not believe the boyfriends and they looked drugged up. The police did not even help the guys get untied from the duct tape. Turned out they were kidnapped and their abducter was shot on a high speed chase.
Just saying people in the know do make judgements and they can be wrong .

Yes, I totally agree.

Any ideas of why her arms were above her head, as opposed to behind her back?

 

[Rupert]

Yes, I totally agree.

Any ideas of why her arms were above her head, as opposed to behind her back?

I think simply because her arms were not restrained during the garroting. She was turned over and then the staging happened. When she was lying on her back you couldn't very well tie her hands underneath. No, it was obvious her hands were tied after and tied above her head to look like bondage staging.