Possible Victim: Andre Jamal Isaac, 25, aka Sugar Bear, missing Nov 2002, found Queens Dec 2002 & Moriches Jan 2003

[phi1ip]

Interesting take. His mom described him as a "big bear" so in terms of stature, it was not consistent with any of the other victims, gender aside. He also had a gunshot wound in his head, which does tell me that the assailant didn't want to take a gamble and go for strangulation as they may have failed at physically overpowering him.

Was Andre "transitioning" as you put it? His mom described him as a talented drag-queen. Now, this is not my area of expertise but when I hear drag-queen I think of a man who Is roleplaying as a female on an intermittent basis.

According to the Murder Inc. website article here, there is supposedly a link between him and Jessica Taylor via Khalil White having resided on the same Brooklyn street. According to Detective B who posted this in another thread, apparently they not only resided on the same block, but were roommates.

When I consider the LISK call, the "half breed" remark and their hunting ground in Suffolk County (not the most diverse of places) it seems a far cry from someone picking up a large black man in East New York in a Red BMW. I still think Jessica Taylor is a Bittrolff victim but don't think Andre is.

So I am not sure about whether or not Andre is confirmed to be a transgender individual or not. Even though it may not seem so, the early 2000s were a very different time for the LGBT+ community, specifically for transgender individuals.

Many news sources interchanged derogatory gay slurs and derogatory transgender slurs. I hate hate HATE this word, but as a an example, many articles I found when doing my brief research, including this one which was linked in the OP, imply that Andre was a "tranny/transvestite" because they were a drag queen. In the early 2000s, much of the public simply grouped drag queens and transgender individuals into the same group, referring to them by the derogatory slurs I just mentioned. But this factually incorrect. As we know now, being a drag queen does not mean you are transgender, and being transgender does not mean you are a drag queen. Because of this stigma in the early 2000s, when many of these articles about Andre were written, we unfortunately may not ever know for sure if Andre was a drag queen, or a transgender individual unless someone close to Andre comes forward to clarify. Either way, Andre was grossly misrepresented by the media at the time.

 

[Sallyla]

That’s the article I found it on that KayElJay posted.

We do know that Andre performed as a drag Queen as Andre’s mother said so. However she also said that Andre left his (she describes him as a he) pocketbook. I’m English but I thought pocketbook referred to a woman’s purse in the states? That along with being in a mugshot dressed as an average woman, not in the exaggerated style of drag, made me think it was most likely Andre lived as female in his everyday life.

 

[phi1ip]

That’s the article I found it on that KayElJay posted.

We do know that Andre performed as a drag Queen as Andre’s mother said so. However she also said that Andre left his (she describes him as a he) pocketbook. I’m English but I thought pocketbook referred to a woman’s purse in the states? That along with being in a mugshot dressed as an average woman, not in the exaggerated style of drag, made me think it was most likely Andre lived as female in his everyday life.

Yes, a pocketbook is usually a small form of a purse.

One last note from me, and I know I am contradicting myself from my last post, but even though Andre's mother refers to Andre with he/him pronouns, I don't know if we can use said information to definitely say Andre was not transgender. Due to the stigma at the time, Andre may not have been comfortable revealing that information to their family. Just from personal experience as a member of the LGBT+ community, information about one's gender identity holds much less weight to me if it came from an individual's family rather than if that information were to come from a close friend or significant other to the individual.

 

[Angela_Beckett]

I agree with your sensible and thoughtful post. If they had a chosen name or gender, hope we learn it, to honor them.

Complete speculation on my part, but there may be a "link" in victim demographics. We now have a potential victim of Andre Jamal Isaac, and we have the unidentified Asian male victim. We know that Andre was a transgender woman, perhaps the Asian male was also a transgender woman. Transgender sex workers do make up a portion of the sex worker community, although how much of the community in the early 2000s, I'm not sure. If this killer was targeting female sex workers, he may not have particularly cared if they were cisgender or transgender.

On a side note, I hope we are soon able to learn if Andre had a "new" name for herself since transitioning and refer to her as such. No one deserves what happened to her, and it's the least we can do to respect her memory.

 

[phi1ip]

I agree with your sensible and thoughtful post. If they had a chosen name or gender, hope we learn it, to honor them.

Thank you! And I completely agree. No matter what, Andre didn't deserve what happened to them. If Andre had a preferred name or pronouns, it is the least we can do to use them.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

And why do we think this is a victim of LISK ? What am I missing ?

 

[OnTheCase27]

And why do we think this is a victim of LISK ? What am I missing ?

Because his name popped up on GilgoNews.com under victims shortly after Valarie Mack’s ID. Suffolk PD said they were just testing the site when asked about it.

 

[Fabra]

https://www.gilgonews.com/Vics/andreisaac

There's obviously the emerging pattern of males in female clothing (eg, Asian male at Gilgo), but also that Andre was dismembered and his/her parts scattered in a few locations. S/he was last seen getting into a car (without taking pocketbook) with a "secret friend." Amber Lynn also got into someone's car on the night she disappeared, too, and according to Dave Schaller, was instructed not to take anything (cell phone/purse) with her. He felt she had a comfort level with this person (or a 'secret friend'?).

It's curious that some of Andre's remains were found next to a former construction site. Thinking Bittrolff (carpenter), perhaps, on this one--but that's so obvious--LE had to have checked out whether he worked on or near that home?! And we don't know whether Bittrolff was into males in drag. One could have been a mistake (as has been theorized with the Asian male), but two starts a pattern, if it's the same killer.

Albeit many coincidences/similarities, still feels like a somewhat tenuous connection to LISK (if you remove Bittrolff as a contender). The bullet hole in the skull--not LISK's MO. Nor is it his body type--he seems to prefer them petite.

I totally get why SCPD would be conflicted about officially linking this to LISK.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I don't connect ANY of our known cases to LISK other than the GB4 and possibly the AC4. I think part of the reason these cases are so difficult to solve is because we are actually looking for more than one serial killer, but trying to make the facts fit just one perpetrator.

JMO

 

[OnTheCase27]

I don't connect ANY of our known cases to LISK other than the GB4 and possibly the AC4. I think part of the reason these cases are so difficult to solve is because we are actually looking for more than one serial killer, but trying to make the facts fit just one perpetrator.

JMO

I completely agree and I think it’s even possible we are dealing with more than two killers between all the victims associated with the LISK killings.

 

[Al Ka]

And why do we think this is a victim of LISK ? What am I missing ?

This is in my personal opinion but I assume new Suffolk task force investigate because his remains were dismembered and scattered in Mannorville and also close to Gilgo beach. So police are mainly looking at location at this point and investigate the possible link.

Another reason, he was dismembered the exact same way as Valerie Mack and Jessica Taylor. All 3 decapitated and all 3 heads found at different and far away locations, all 3 had also extremities dismembered as well, again dumped somewhere else. All 3 were sex workers.

All 3 disapperead in the same time frame:

- Valerie disappeared sometimes in 2000 and her body/torso was found on Nov. 19, 2000 in Mannorville and her skull and extremities in 2011 on Gilgo beach.
- Andre disappeared on November 28, 2002 and torso was found in December 17, 2002 in Queens, head was found in Moriches, Mannorville in January 25, 2003. His arms and legs were found after that in a plastic bag miles away close to Gilgo Beach.
- Jessica disappeared sometimes in 2003 and her torso was found in July 2003, less than mile from Valerie's torso. Jessica's skull anf extremities were found in 2011 on Gilgo beach, again not far from Valerie's skull and extremities.

While it is unknown from which location in NYC Valerie disappeared from, Jessica and Andre were last seen in the City, quite far from Long Island.

Age: While age is not important all 3 were in similar age bracket so more likely to know the same circle of people. Valerie was 24, Andre 25 and Jessica 20 when they were murdered in 3 year period.

I am convinced without any doubt for many reasons that Jessica's and Valerie's murders were done by the same person. Andre's? Well, perhaps but so far can't be excluded as it is too similar in some ways. From what is known so far he was only one though from 3 of them that had actual ties to Long Island.

Now what they all 3 had in common. Not much is yet known about Andre but Valerie and Jessica were quite troubled young girls, both street walkers, both heavy drug users, both new arrivals in NYC, just 2-3 weeks prior to their death. Since identification of Valerie I am starting to look at this 3 cases a bit different way and playing with possibility that it might not have been their John who murdered them.

Who they met on every day bases:
- their pimp/maybe partner
- their drug dealer
- customers/Johns

Even though they might not have known each other, they all met the same person/ murderer in one of those mentioned circles in the city, far away from Long Island. Usually only reason to drive body very far and hamper identification is becase when identified it leads quickly to the murderer who was close to the victim. Removal of their tattoos on both of their bodies just ensures my opinion about this.

Because of Andre's case I do wonder if Asian man could be also someone from their circles, someone who went missing in the same time frame as 3 of them. I have to refresh on his case though.

 

[Al Ka]

I can't edit previous post any more but small correction, Andre's torso was not found in Queens but rather in Averne on Rockaway Beach, most western part of the Long Island beach, close to Jamaica Bay.

 

[DetectiveB]

My 2 cents...
Some of you may or may not know but back in 2002, there was a transvestite named "Andre Isaac aka Sugar Bear, I believe...who disappeared out of Brooklyn. He shared a home w a "Khalil White" known to be Jessica Taylor's pimp.

It was said that Andre was last seen getting into a red car (bmw type style ) with a hispanic male.
What's interesting is that in the article I read, it also mentioned that Andre left the house without his pocketbook. He was never seen again.

Later, his torso & legs were found in Brooklyn Park. There was also mentioning of a head found- but I did not see if it was ever properly ID'd.
Ironically, Andre's head was later found in East Moriches in a frozen pond, which is very close in proximity to Manorville.
It just seems like most of the victims are taken from the west and their bodies are sprawled out east. This is the MO of the killer. The other MO of the killer is his odd affinity with tattoos. He either hates them or loves them. ex; asked Melissa's boyfriend about his...but also seems to want to hide his victims tattoos. Another interesting thing for me personally was when the "so-called" killer called Melissa's sister and said he heard she was a "half-breed" why was that so important to be brought up I wonder? Many of the girls dated men of other color and or race, as well as some had biracial children. Not sure if that means anything.

But again, when we look at the time frame or in chronological order, the first set of body parts were found in near Fire Island. The second was "Peaches" in Hempstead Lake Park. Then the next two were in Manorville, (Jessica & Valerie) and then G4 and the others. However, we don't know if there are other numerous dumping grounds, as I am sure there are and if many others are missing, connected, etc. The killer just seems like he's trying or tried so hard to stay well ahead of LE and after this became so public, things quieted down.
I believe he's still out there gleaming over knowing he's still getting away with all this but his day is coming. He will slip up.

***PS...does anyone think the women to the right of the pimp (Khalil White) could be Sugar Bear? Not sure if this was mentioned or not before?

 

[Sallyla]

***PS...does anyone think the women to the right of the pimp (Khalil White) could be Sugar Bear? Not sure if this was mentioned or not before?

That’s a great spot, looks a lot like the the pic of Sugar Bear already circulating, I think it is. Is the girl on the left Jessica? Where did you find this?

 

[DetectiveB]

That’s a great spot, looks a lot like the the pic of Sugar Bear already circulating, I think it is. Is the girl on the left Jessica? Where did you find this?

I found the pic on Khalil White's Myspace...however it has been posted here in WS before, so the pic has been circulated. I also think it does look like Jessica on his left and I wonder if any of the other girls are connected to those who are missing. One of the things that stuck me was this quote also found on his page..."the hommie twist ,my girl shorty 240 angie and the rest of the union square crew.shorty you know I had to post this on my page.lol"...If you read in to it...saying that he HAD to post it, and then put LOL. ? Who could be shorty? and perhaps Jessica went by the name Angie?

 

[Specklesoffreckles]

I'm about halfway through The Killing Season and already listened to all of the LISK Podcast (so sorry if this has already been discussed), but what is everyone's thoughts on the fact that Khalil White mentioned Jessica's remains were found in a burlap sack in Manorville (Not Gilgo)? If you believe the theory that there are two serial killers, this fact would certainly go against that...

 

[lilojlo77]

We watched the Killing Season and they really should have concentrated more on LISK. There is NO WAY that the serial killer in Daytona Beach is LISK. That's absolutely ridiculous. LISK is not a seasonal serial killer. As far as the women in the burlap, that were right behind Dr. Hakket's house in our opinion is LISK. As far as the dismembered women with body parts found in different locations is a completely different serial killer that started in way before LISK. That serial killer started in the '90's, or possibly before that. Therefore LISK and serial killer are not one in the same. LISK made his escorts feel that they could trust him and felt as if they knew him because none of them brought their cell phones, identification or any other personal objects. LISK is still out there and active. He may still be killing or just taking a break because of unknown reasons to us. LISK LOVING ALL THE ATTENTION AND BLOGS AND SHOWS DETICATED TO HIM. THAT'S WHAT HE LIVES FOR. ALL SHOULD STILL BEWARE OF LISK

 

[Fabra]

Mom thinks death of son who dressed as a woman, found dismembered is tied to Gilgo Beach murders


"The mother of a young female impersonator who was murdered and dismembered in late 2002 told PIX11 News she thinks her son, Andre Isaac, was targeted by the elusive Long Island serial killer, known by the acronym LISK."

 

[Al Ka]

Mom thinks death of son who dressed as a woman, found dismembered is tied to Gilgo Beach murders


"The mother of a young female impersonator who was murdered and dismembered in late 2002 told PIX11 News she thinks her son, Andre Isaac, was targeted by the elusive Long Island serial killer, known by the acronym LISK."

Mom thinks death of son who dressed as a woman, found dismembered is tied to Gilgo Beach murders

“They called him ‘Sugar Bear,’” Isaac’s mother Kim Jordan said of her son’s friends in her first TV interview. “They were all petite little guys and Andre was like the big giant, the gentle giant.”

Andre Isaac stood about 6 feet 3 inches tall and was 25 when he disappeared in November 2002.

“I knew my son was gay; I knew since he was very young,” the mother said. “I loved him from the time I conceived him.”

Jordan raised four of her own children and four nieces and nephews who were very close with her son.
---
The 25-year-old’s torso was found dressed in a body suit and skirt in Far Rockaway, Queens in December 2002.
---
Her son’s remains weren’t identified until months after a skull was discovered embedded in the ice of a pond in Moriches, Long Island in January 2003. The location was 60 miles away from Far Rockaway.

“I used to dream, have nightmares, about his head on a platter,” Jordan recalled.

There was a bullet hole in one of Isaac’s temples.

“They told me the FBI was involved and I felt this sense of relief,” Jordan said.
---
It’s believed the serial killer did murder another man dressed in female clothing, whose remains were found on Ocean Parkway and are still unidentified.

That man was believed to be between the ages of 17 and 23; he was discovered in April 2011, very close to the original “Gilgo Four”
---
Isaac’s mother is glad his unsolved case is finally getting some attention.

“I think the more attention the story gets, something may come of it,” Kim Jordan said. She's hoping for justice for her beloved son.

 

[Al Ka]

***PS...does anyone think the women to the right of the pimp (Khalil White) could be Sugar Bear? Not sure if this was mentioned or not before?

Latest article mentions that Sugar Bear was 6 feet 3, so it is not likely that it is him/her in this photo. He would be definitely the tallest.

It would be good to find out when or in which year photo was actually taken. If Jessica was really only few weeks in New York, than photo is definitely from 2003, sometime prior to July when she was found.