Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

I totally understand your point on this, and I think they're good points, but I do think the connections and coincidences are extremely relevant. On the four to five miles of distance issue, the remains of Peaches and Karen Vergata were five to seven miles west (sources vary) of Gilgo Beach. In a New York Times 2011 article, I see them noting these sets of remains were two-three miles apart. The span across Ocean Parkway where known victims are located is (from what I can ascertain from sources) about 10 miles. And RH has been charged for a murder victim found all the way over in North Sea; he has left remains of known victims all the way over in Manorville; and LE also discovered remains of a known Ocean Parkway victim in Fire Island. So far with the cases we know about, he did use burner phones. That does not mean he only used burner phones. And again, so far with the cases we know of, he took victims alone, not accompanied by others (such as drivers). That does not mean, however, he always adhered to this practice and viewed it as a prerequisite to his murders, and indeed, LE themselves recognized this, wondering at various points if Asian Doe hadn't been a companion to one of the other victims. And by the time the murderer would have had Shannan Gilbert, her driver was not present. RH did not always require discreet places and complete privacy. He murdered Amber Costello despite the presence of a witness. He simply doesn't "always" do anything, quite frankly. Sometimes he used burlap, other times plastic. Sometimes, a Rubbermaid container. Sometimes he dismembered victims, sometimes he did not. Sometimes he posed a victim, in most cases we're aware of, he did not. His dropoffs were probably not all that quick, LE noted LISK would have been plagued with outbreaks of poison ivy from trudging through brambles. He didn't always use victim phones to contact friends and relatives. He only "sometimes" did so. He's profoundly sadistic and enjoys his sick games, that does not mean he in every instance required them or had the opportunity to engage in them. Agreed he loves complete control, but he clearly has a variety of means that he employs to acquire it ("I told you I could find you anywhere," as he noted to the coworker he tracked to a cruise ship for her vacation.) He's a slick, cunning, manipulative chameleon, and there's no way I'd rule him out as a suspect in the case of Shannan Gilbert, which in my mind was anything but an accident.

You're right that he didn't adhere to everything I said for all of his victims. However, that is because he evolved over time. When comparing Shannan to LISK victims, I am of the opinion that you need to compare her with the Gilgo Four, as she went missing during that 2007-2010 period when he had progressed to finding girls online and using burners. Sandra Costilla (1993) may have been his first, or at least one of his first victims. She went missing during a period when he had to pick up girls off the street. The newspapers reported that she had been identified by her fingerprints (we now know that he read these newspapers). This may have been the reason why he started dismembering victims and throwing their identifiable remains into the bushes off Ocean Parkway (no fingerprints or dental records).

He clearly evolved his practices over time. However, the 2007-2010 period shows that he had largely settled on his latest method of operating. You can even see a slight evolution between Maureen (2007, no burlap) and the other Gilgo Four (2009 - 2010), who were wrapped in burlap. Shannan's case, on the other hand, shows no evidence that she was apart of any such evolution. Her case in an orange among a pile of apples. For Shannan to be a Heuermann victim, he would have had to discard his entire modus operandi and just so happen to be in a private gated community at the right moment when she ran from Brewer's home. A community that he has no known ties to. Then, he would have had to revert right back to his original MO as though nothing had ever happened.

Am I saying that it is impossible? Definitely not, MO can change. It would be foolish to speak in absolutes. What I'm saying is that the likelihood is pretty low, and we can only play it by what is likely or not.

Also, in regards to the witness, it's still unclear whether Heuermann knew that Amber's roommate was present that night. Dave didn't accompany her to the truck. Regardless, I still think it fits with his evolution. Complacency was clearly creeping in. Dumping the remains in one spot as opposed to spacing them apart, calling a victim's sister multiple times (2009), and visiting the same woman twice (Amber). 2010 also seems to be the first known year where he began picking up victims on Long Island instead of Manhattan.
 
I tend to agree with those who feel that RH was not directly or even indirectly involved with Shannan's death. Other than the location of where Shannan's body was found, nothing points to RH and his usual MO.

If RH was involved somehow at Brewer's house it would be easy now for Brewer to say so now, and be sort of a hero.
 
I tend to agree with those who feel that RH was not directly or even indirectly involved with Shannan's death. Other than the location of where Shannan's body was found, nothing points to RH and his usual MO.

If RH was involved somehow at Brewer's house it would be easy now for Brewer to say so now, and be sort of a hero.
I have come to feel as you have.
 
RH and supposedly his wife were allegedly swingers, per reports of the Karen Vergata incident. Someone thought to be KV was last seen by a witness running from RH's house, naked and terrified in a supposed sex game.

RH is a sexual predator and a serial killer; he researched his victims, taunted family members, had kill checklists and preferred dump sites.

I see him and his sexual predator buddies routinely inviting escorts, primarily young vulnerable women, some that they have met before, to come to sketchy sex parties on LI where they "partied" with them (drugged?) and perhaps tortured them.

From what I can gather from the 911 call from Shannon; I can hear Joseph Brewer telling her that the guy wants her to go with him and she's like "No!" so there was someone or something she was afraid of and that's why she didn't want to leave initially.

She was adamantly refusing to go; I think the man PB wanted SG to leave with was RH and Shannon recognized him and did not want to leave with him.

When she was forced out she was so scared that she ran down the street from house to house begging for help while on the phone with 911 but no one would help her.

Purely speculation; What if by the time she got to Peter Hackett's house he knew what she was running from and told her he would help her (in his halfway house for "wayward" girls, how convenient!) then brought her inside his house (did he allow RH to come inside as well?)

This would explain why PH felt the need to call her mom, to cover his tracks or cover for RH, maybe one or both of them still had possession of her for a few days before ditching her belongings and then RH taking her to one of his preferred dump sites.

I don't think SG got where she was found on her own and I don't think her death was accidental. I think she almost got away that night and the men involved couldn’t have that.

All speculation and my opinion of course

 
RH and supposedly his wife were allegedly swingers, per reports of the Karen Vergata incident. Someone thought to be KV was last seen by a witness running from RH's house, naked and terrified in a supposed sex game.

RH is a sexual predator and a serial killer; he researched his victims, taunted family members, had kill checklists and preferred dump sites.

I see him and his sexual predator buddies routinely inviting escorts, primarily young vulnerable women, some that they have met before, to come to sketchy sex parties on LI where they "partied" with them (drugged?) and perhaps tortured them.

From what I can gather from the 911 call from Shannon; I can hear Joseph Brewer telling her that the guy wants her to go with him and she's like "No!" so there was someone or something she was afraid of and that's why she didn't want to leave initially.

She was adamantly refusing to go; I think the man PB wanted SG to leave with was RH and Shannon recognized him and did not want to leave with him.

When she was forced out she was so scared that she ran down the street from house to house begging for help while on the phone with 911 but no one would help her.

Purely speculation; What if by the time she got to Peter Hackett's house he knew what she was running from and told her he would help her (in his halfway house for "wayward" girls, how convenient!) then brought her inside his house (did he allow RH to come inside as well?)

This would explain why PH felt the need to call her mom, to cover his tracks or cover for RH, maybe one or both of them still had possession of her for a few days before ditching her belongings and then RH taking her to one of his preferred dump sites.

I don't think SG got where she was found on her own and I don't think her death was accidental. I think she almost got away that night and the men involved couldn’t have that.

All speculation and my opinion of course

100 percent with you on this. mOO
 
Just noting, I've seen really good arguments (jmo) on the threads about it having been an accident, but the problem for me is that these arguments are actually much better than the explanations put forward by LE, or at least the manner in which they were put forward by LE. Since LE is the most powerful arm in terms of investigating critical details of the case, this worries me tremendously (MOO). I'll never be convinced it was an accident, but can definitely see how some might view it as such.

It's a concern to me, too, that Burke is suspected of smoking crack (along with other misdeeds) and he had a lot of power when this case was being investigated. I fear sometimes that some in LE may have had the inclination to "marry" or "bury" their mistake and never admit it, possibly beleving already it would be almost impossible to ultimately get formal charges in the case. Would also fear personal animosity towards John Ray on behalf of some in LE, perhaps resenting the idea (speculating) that a sex worker had gone ahead and "lawyered up." Wasn't SG's family one of the first to obtain an attorney? Even were this not the case, there's imo a lot of bad feeling towards John Ray generally. (I don't think it's warranted, but jmo.)
 
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I tend to agree with those who feel that RH was not directly or even indirectly involved with Shannan's death. Other than the location of where Shannan's body was found, nothing points to RH and his usual MO.

If RH was involved somehow at Brewer's house it would be easy now for Brewer to say so now, and be sort of a hero.
I think she was aware of some stuffs , she wasn't ever leaving alive , she knew that. I don't think RH was a quiet killer , people knew. ...IMO , He might have started out like itchy from b-more.. , east coast territories an all that, but he got. thirsty. mid 90's. imo ..IMO .. Again IMO .
 
shastababy said "From what I can gather from the 911 call from Shannon; I can hear Joseph Brewer telling her that the guy wants her to go with him and she's like "No!" so there was someone or something she was afraid of and that's why she didn't want to leave initially.

The assumptions of RH being involved in Shannan's demise are all predicated on RH's presence at Brewer's house. Nobody has confirmed that fact, not Brewer, or Pak who were questioned by the SCPD, or the SCPD.

This is where the 'lost' video of the entrance gate would be most valuable. But it is gone.

Is there any other bit of evidence, admissible or not, that could implicate RH, such as.
1) Brewer, and/or Pak and/or Hackett were acquainted with RH?
2) Somebody saw RH or his vehicle in Oak Beach that day or previously?
3) RH does not have an alibi for that day and time?
4) Brewer, Pak and Hackett have stated if RH was at Oak Beach that day and time.

I would think that if RH was there, it would be in Brewer's best interest to say so. RH is already in jail, and is likely not getting out. No reason for anybody in Oak Beach to protect him.

MOO
 
shastababy said "From what I can gather from the 911 call from Shannon; I can hear Joseph Brewer telling her that the guy wants her to go with him and she's like "No!" so there was someone or something she was afraid of and that's why she didn't want to leave initially.

The assumptions of RH being involved in Shannan's demise are all predicated on RH's presence at Brewer's house. Nobody has confirmed that fact, not Brewer, or Pak who were questioned by the SCPD, or the SCPD.

This is where the 'lost' video of the entrance gate would be most valuable. But it is gone.

Is there any other bit of evidence, admissible or not, that could implicate RH, such as.
1) Brewer, and/or Pak and/or Hackett were acquainted with RH?
2) Somebody saw RH or his vehicle in Oak Beach that day or previously?
3) RH does not have an alibi for that day and time?
4) Brewer, Pak and Hackett have stated if RH was at Oak Beach that day and time.

I would think that if RH was there, it would be in Brewer's best interest to say so. RH is already in jail, and is likely not getting out. No reason for anybody in Oak Beach to protect him.

MOO
But are they protecting only RH? There's no way of knowing what was really going on there. Perhaps by not talking they are protecting themselves and other friends? I have no idea what happened in Oak Beach, nor the rest of LI during that time. But we have glimpses into lifestyles that in the light of today, many people would prefer to deny any involvement.
 
Am I saying that it is impossible? Definitely not, MO can change. It would be foolish to speak in absolutes. What I'm saying is that the likelihood is pretty low, and we can only play it by what is likely or not.
I don’t have a strong feeling one way or the other about RH and SG. But I do disagree that MO can be used to rule out SG as a victim.
1. We know that RH actually did change his MO at least once. For years people were convinced different MOs meant the Long Island murders couldn't possibly have been committed by the same killer. Did we not learn our lesson from that?
2. I think it’s highly unlikely that every victim has been discovered. We may only have a small sample of what his MO(s) look like.
3. The last known victim was murdered in 2010. Do we really think he never murdered again? It makes sense to me that he may have switched it up then - SG could very easily be his first try at something different before moving onto a method that made the bodies harder to find. Arrogant jackass that he is, it’s not even impossible that after he tired of his Gilgo 4 MO, he left SG there in the open purposefully so that LE would find his other victims.
The least likely scenario IMO is that we know enough about RH and his activities to confidently rule out victims based on what we know.
JMO
 
I don’t have a strong feeling one way or the other about RH and SG. But I do disagree that MO can be used to rule out SG as a victim.
1. We know that RH actually did change his MO at least once. For years people were convinced different MOs meant the Long Island murders couldn't possibly have been committed by the same killer. Did we not learn our lesson from that?
2. I think it’s highly unlikely that every victim has been discovered. We may only have a small sample of what his MO(s) look like.
3. The last known victim was murdered in 2010. Do we really think he never murdered again? It makes sense to me that he may have switched it up then - SG could very easily be his first try at something different before moving onto a method that made the bodies harder to find. Arrogant jackass that he is, it’s not even impossible that after he tired of his Gilgo 4 MO, he left SG there in the open purposefully so that LE would find his other victims.
The least likely scenario IMO is that we know enough about RH and his activities to confidently rule out victims based on what we know.
JMO

He changed his MO multiple times, but there was always a pretty clear reason for doing so. For him to be involved in Shannan's murder, he would have had to do a complete 180 on everything. Personally, I just don't see it.

MO, etc., aside, there is nothing linking him to Shannan or Oak Beach. If she was murdered, then there is an offender out there who has so far managed to escape justice.
 
Just came by to express my wishes that Shannan's story will someday be accurately told.

It does my heart good to find this thread active.

IMO, there is absolutely no way that she was not the victim of a crime. An accident is simply impossible given the 911 call and the subsequent behaviors of witnesses who were awake.

While SCPD called it an accident, they also refused to share evidence on the grounds that it was an investigation, which calls their credibility into question. Before the 911 call was released, the SCPD misled the public about its contents, including in an OP-ED type letter to local press. Then, when the call was released in spite of aggressive SCPD resistance, the PD spun the contents to the point of mischaracterization.

WINDSOR, as always, has thoughtful, empathic contributions to this thread. But I'm not so sure that RH can be ruled out of being on the scene of Shannan's disappearance on the grounds that it would give Brewer an opportunity to draw positive attention. There is no evidence that bigger power brokers than the press and the public wanting justice for Shannan do want the case solved. Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary. Brewer seemed smugly certain of this when he brought Alex to the SCPD. If he was well aware that Alex would get the run-around searching for Shannan, he was also aware that they were not motivated to find her.

I do not know if RH has a direct criminal connection to Shannan's murder. No degree of involvement or lack of involvement will surprise me. But IMO, there is some connection in the cover-ups and the reluctance to investigate. And both Brewer and RH might be very aware of the whole of it or part of it.

About Lost Girls: It's quality journalism. It relies on interviews. The accuracy of the reporting is very dependent on the accuracy of the interviewees, and it is not easy to decide when to take an interviewee at their word. I think Kolker may have over trusted Pak and Amber's sister. I know he offended Bear (friend and housemate of Amber's) with the reporting, especially that which we seem to come from Amber's sister's POV. He feels Amber's story is very distorted in that book. I think it is a helpful book, but it doesn't mean it has the story correct from a objective recording from a camcorder in the sky-it's reporting from subjective sources.

MOO
 
shastababy said "From what I can gather from the 911 call from Shannon; I can hear Joseph Brewer telling her that the guy wants her to go with him and she's like "No!" so there was someone or something she was afraid of and that's why she didn't want to leave initially.

The assumptions of RH being involved in Shannan's demise are all predicated on RH's presence at Brewer's house. Nobody has confirmed that fact, not Brewer, or Pak who were questioned by the SCPD, or the SCPD.

This is where the 'lost' video of the entrance gate would be most valuable. But it is gone.

Is there any other bit of evidence, admissible or not, that could implicate RH, such as.
1) Brewer, and/or Pak and/or Hackett were acquainted with RH?
2) Somebody saw RH or his vehicle in Oak Beach that day or previously?
3) RH does not have an alibi for that day and time?
4) Brewer, Pak and Hackett have stated if RH was at Oak Beach that day and time.

I would think that if RH was there, it would be in Brewer's best interest to say so. RH is already in jail, and is likely not getting out. No reason for anybody in Oak Beach to protect him.

MOO
I think Brewer, Pak, Hackett or anyone else around that night would only mention RH's presence that night if it was some great benefit to them. These aren't upstanding citizens looking to "do the right thing". At best, they're shady, unscrupulous people. None of them have done anything more than absolutely necessary to help solve any of these crimes.

It's not to say RH was there that night or in some way involved, I'm not sure. But I doubt any of these people would tell LE if he was there.
 
I think Brewer, Pak, Hackett or anyone else around that night would only mention RH's presence that night if it was some great benefit to them. These aren't upstanding citizens looking to "do the right thing". At best, they're shady, unscrupulous people. None of them have done anything more than absolutely necessary to help solve any of these crimes.

It's not to say RH was there that night or in some way involved, I'm not sure. But I doubt any of these people would tell LE if he was there.
Brewer could realistically be afraid of angering the SCPD by helping break the case.

A normal person would have been perhaps embarrassed that they were publicly outted for hiring a sex worker, but horrified none-the-less that she went missing.

Brewer, in contrast, clearly lied about what happened that night. He was on tape trying to lure Shannan out of the house, and he claimed he was trying to kick her out of the house. That lie is not just shame for hiring a sex worker. That is knowingly covering up that he had some knowledge that something beyond sex commerce was occurring, and covering up that at least until a point, the point he said he's going to bed, he was willing to help.

Then, when she was missing and likely deceased, his only "help" was marching Alex to the SCPD. I mean, theoretically he spent a few hours with her playing cards or something. If that's true, why would he do that, unless he was abetting another crime. (Of course, it is also possible he just hired her for more typical activities, but...why from a Manhattan ad, and why in contact with Pak?)

I hope Brewer is afraid of the SCPD. It is the least reprehensible theory about him.

IMO, of course

MOO
 
Brewer could realistically be afraid of angering the SCPD by helping break the case.

A normal person would have been perhaps embarrassed that they were publicly outted for hiring a sex worker, but horrified none-the-less that she went missing.

Brewer, in contrast, clearly lied about what happened that night. He was on tape trying to lure Shannan out of the house, and he claimed he was trying to kick her out of the house. That lie is not just shame for hiring a sex worker. That is knowingly covering up that he had some knowledge that something beyond sex commerce was occurring, and covering up that at least until a point, the point he said he's going to bed, he was willing to help.

Then, when she was missing and likely deceased, his only "help" was marching Alex to the SCPD. I mean, theoretically he spent a few hours with her playing cards or something. If that's true, why would he do that, unless he was abetting another crime. (Of course, it is also possible he just hired her for more typical activities, but...why from a Manhattan ad, and why in contact with Pak?)

I hope Brewer is afraid of the SCPD. It is the least reprehensible theory about him.

IMO, of course

MOO
Brewer is truly an interesting individual. I believe Alex Diaz, Shannan's pimp and boyfriend and the guy who broke her jaw previously was brought to Oak Beach the day after Shannan disappeared by Michael Pak. I cannot recall anything that Brewer might have done that been helpful to Shannan, or the investigation.

Remember Brewer is the nexus of all the divergent individuals coming together. Without Brewer's involvement no Michael Pak, no Shannan Gilbert, no drive to the CVS, no 911 call, no Peter Hackett and no disappearance. None of these things would have happened without Brewer.
 
Don’t misunderstand. I was just tossing around possible explanations. And you (not you, but people) have to have a reason, right? Even if there’s a thrill kill, sporadic action situation, there’s still a reason. That’s all. If someone killed her, than why? If she died on her own, then LE was right all along.
Sadly, the reason could be - for fun. It’s not something most people can relate to. So they tend to brush it off.
 
Brewer is truly an interesting individual. I believe Alex Diaz, Shannan's pimp and boyfriend and the guy who broke her jaw previously was brought to Oak Beach the day after Shannan disappeared by Michael Pak. I cannot recall anything that Brewer might have done that been helpful to Shannan, or the investigation.

Remember Brewer is the nexus of all the divergent individuals coming together. Without Brewer's involvement no Michael Pak, no Shannan Gilbert, no drive to the CVS, no 911 call, no Peter Hackett and no disappearance. None of these things would have happened without Brewer.
Actually, I seem to remember Brewer saying ”he could tell us things” - paraphrasing .

But I’ve been looking around for the old clips of Brewer and Pak talking about this case and I can’t find much.

Anyway, those statements he made were in 2011 or something - it takes on a whole other meaning after the Epstein/Diddy/Alexander revelations.
 
I'm just going to say this... 7 dead sex workers in an affluent gated residential costal area ...a nature park...call girls don't generally work in nature parks and swamps...and so we find out they were murdered by one man..RH...right..but then we have this other one, SG...who was previously seen with Rex by a taxi driver at a hotel.

Rex set this up...he chased her around and killed her in the middle of the night and left her there..because it was too hot with cops to move her..he chased her deep into the reeds because he couldn't get to her to kidnap her...and now she would live to tell the tale...

she's not some "extra" sex worker who died on Gilgo Beach. she's just not..there are no "sex workers of Gilgo Beach"... she didn't even know where she was. The gate video's are missing..how convenient..no one can see who came and went and one of the men there made sure no one could ever see it.

The phone calls to the family fit Rex to a tee... how weird RH and PH making the same kind of creepy phone calls.. the various middle aged men who are somehow involved but lying...there is no way she died of hypothermia right next to Rex's girl garden...I also think we get in trouble if we start to think Rex didn't have other murders that were not committed in his home...we will find out one day I think. we also know a young woman riding her bike was terrorized by Rex in a park with a similar kind of nearby area and was popping in and out of the wood...and at this time, Aesa was NOT on vacation mOO.
 
So did Rex know where she was? How can that be? Could they have communicated ? she didn't seem to know where she was so this is the part that is hard to work out. Maybe he recommended her to those guys...how did Brewer initially find Shannen? on line? Rex enjoys hunting and stalking so it could be that he literally followed her there all the way from her house or wherever she left from with Pac, but then how crazy is it she has a job right where Rex has his
victims? how convenient! Rex has lived there all his life and if it's true there was a swinger scene , Rex may know
who's who out there..

maybe he was just out there checking on things and spots her going in or coming out and things escalate..maybe she had never met Rex before..but she sees him out there in the darkness ..she see him and he's moving around and waiting for her, maybe she does recognize Rex and thinks Pac told Rex where to find her and that's why she won't get in the car..

I pray someday we will get a confession.

Added...as a matter of fact we really don't know where Shannen died ..what if Rex picked her up and she got in his truck and he took her somewhere..maybe he dumped her out there days later...along with her pants and her purse.
did they find her phone? I can't remember.. all we know is she supposedly left Hacketts and there is no proof she spent the night out in those reeds..

mOO
 
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another really weird thought..stay with me. is there a way Rex could have called Shannen's sister pretending to be Hackett? maybe some of the calls didn't come from Peter...but Peter was in the news etc...and why didn't they find her early on? why do the calls sound/seem so similar to the calls made to Maureen's sister? this type of behavior is very specific. I just feel it's all too coincidental.

added: I hope Rex comes clean..he will get a lot of attention if he does..He can use the courts to entertain himself while he rots in prison.

mOO
 
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