Premeditation

[Wudge]

I look at it differently. I do not see how LE could release anything about Caylee being bound, if they aren't sure whether or not she was. Dependent upon where and how the other pieces of duck tape were positioned when found, it might be hard to conclude with certainty and release that as fact.

I also do not see fulfilling the Sunshine Law requirements as leaking evidence, but that is just my perception of the current information that has been released.

:wink: And no, I do not think happenschance works for me either, but I like that you offfered an alternate to consider.

If you're willing, would you outline a scenario you can envision that would cause duct tape to be applied to a body (living or dead) in a serendipitous or happenschance manner? I'm willing to consider it, I just can't come up with a workable image of that.

Swimming pool water that continued to leak out around the edges of the tape.

 

[snow_walker]

I am trying to move on.. one thing I noticed that no one else has mentioned yet is that the hair caught in the tape appears to have been horizontal, more or less with the tape. suggesting to me that Caylee's head (and body) was in a lying down sort of position. Which would give some credence to the idea of a child lying on a bed or floor when the tape was applied.. so possibly a child being controlled with the perpetrator kneeling over them, contolling their hands with their knees and body wieight.

 

[JBean]

JellyBean, How can duct taping of all the airways (nose and mouth) NOT kill? All of Caylee's airways were occluded.

Oh! I thought we did not know the cause of death.

ETA: Has Dr G named the death as cause by suffocation or whatever it would be? I have embarrassingly missed that and would appreciate it of someone could bring me up to speed.

 

[Wudge]

Very true, but if it is possible it would explain the lack of bondage you seem to feel is critical. Since it is not necessary to use restraints to duct tape a toddler, the lack of restraints found at the crime scene therefore becomes irrelevant.

The point was that prosecutors need evidence, a nd imagination, conjecture, suspicion, possibility, etc., are not evidence.

 

[Brini]

Swimming pool water that continued to leak out around the edges of the tape.

Evidence of swimming pool water?

Or, is that conjecture?

Why would a little water coming out of the nose or mouth be a problem, if one was going to dispose of the body in three layers of garbage bags?

Bottom line-- there is plenty of evidence of the placement of the tape, and the damage that it would do to a living entity. The tape was still stuck to the baby's skull. The jury will not like that, and they prolly won't accept that it was accidental. We are talking the law in FL, as it is, and not as anyone thinks it should be.

 

[ThoughtElf]

Swimming pool water that continued to leak out around the edges of the tape.

Sorry Wudge, I give you advance permission to beat me with the 'stupid stick' without worrying about me taking any offense to it, because I am still not grokking how the tape could be placed in a happenschance manner to begin with?

I follow what you've noted about the swimming pool water leaking, but I'm still three steps back to how the tape got on Caylee in the first place.

Perhaps, you are saying that the tape was displaced and moved (relocated?) to a different position on Caylee's skull due to the swimming pool water loosening the adhesive, so it only appeared that it had been deliberately placed over her mouth & nose?

If so, still doesn't explain how the tape was placed on Caylee initially. I can't work this through unless I can grasp the concept of duct tape being placed on Caylee in a manner that was not purposeful.

 

[ThoughtElf]

Oh! I thought we did not know the cause of death.

ETA: Has Dr G named the death as cause by suffocation or whatever it would be? I have embarrassingly missed that and would appreciate it of someone could bring me up to speed.

OK, that got a genuine LOL - right there. You don't miss a thang.

Manner of death as determined by Dr. G is homicide. COD is unknown. (as you know) LOLOL.

 

[wonders]

A heart sticker does not suggest a sinister intention. It suggests the opposite.

BBM
In this case I believe with all my being that the heart stickers are sinister.
Could you please tell me why someone would duct tape another human beings face other then accomplishing a sinister deed heart stickers or not.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Oh! I thought we did not know the cause of death.

ETA: Has Dr G named the death as cause by suffocation or whatever it would be? I have embarrassingly missed that and would appreciate it of someone could bring me up to speed.

No, you haven't missed anything. COD is still undetermined and manner of death is still homicide.

Jurors are suppossed to use common sense and decide guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt what so ever. My common sense tells me there is no reason for 3 pieces of duct tape to be over a 2 year old's nose and mouth except for causing harm to said 2 year old.

 

[Jolynna]

Applying three pieces of tape instead instead of one very well thought out piece of tape (which would have been wrapped around the entire head) strongly suggests a serendipitous application.

Do remember too that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together behind her back. Nor were her hands tied or taped to her waist. The fact is that her hands were not tied or taped together in any way. In a murder where tape was going to be used to sufficate someone, a planned approach would be to ensure the victim could not use their hands to pull the tape away.

Wudge, Caylee couldn't pull industrial strength duct tape off of her face. Regular duct tape can pull skin off. KC used the industrial strength going clear back into Caylee's hair.

Sitting on Caylee with her arms pinned underneath KC's legs would have left KC's arms free to apply the duct tape any way KC wanted to put it. It would have been especially easy if KC had the duct tape ready in advance. KC wouldn't have to bind Caylee. IIRC, it takes 4 minutes to die with your air shut off. Which would be a long and cruel time for Caylee, but not much effort for KC.

BUT, irregardless of all of that, there is no reason anyone would put THREE pieces of industrial strength duct tape over a child's mouth and nose except to kill the child.

 

[wonders]

I can easily imagine straddling a toddler and using one's knees to pin down their arms. I don't think physical restraints like tape or ligatures would be necessary at all.

cecybeans that was my first thought whenever all this came out. I had that exact image in my mind. If she had been found early on I'd bet my life she would have been covered in bruses and God knows what else.

 

[Wudge]

Sorry Wudge, I give you advance permission to beat me with the 'stupid stick' without worrying about me taking any offense to it, because I am still not grokking how the tape could be placed in a happenschance manner to begin with?

I follow what you've noted about the swimming pool water leaking, but I'm still three steps back to how the tape got on Caylee in the first place.

Perhaps, you are saying that the tape was displaced and moved (relocated?) to a different position on Caylee's skull due to the swimming pool water loosening the adhesive, so it only appeared that it had been deliberately placed over her mouth & nose?

If so, still doesn't explain how the tape was placed on Caylee initially. I can't work this through unless I can grasp the concept of duct tape being placed on Caylee in a manner that was not purposeful.

You asked for a scenario, and I gave you leaking swimming pool water.

The scenario has Caylee dead from drowning and swimming pool water leaking out of her mouth, so a piece of duct tape was used to stop the flow. However, it continued to leak from around the edges of the duct tape, so more tape was used until the leaking stopped.

 

[Brini]

Oh! I thought we did not know the cause of death.

ETA: Has Dr G named the death as cause by suffocation or whatever it would be? I have embarrassingly missed that and would appreciate it of someone could bring me up to speed.

We don't have cause of death. There was no soft tissue left to examine. Suffocation is assessed by changes in the eyes, skin, and respiratory systems. None of that was present.

We DO know what effect occluding the airways with duct tape has.

We know that she died at her mother's hands.

And, we know that the defense is going to have to convince the jury that there was some benign reason for taping up the baby's face.

So far the defense is still making SODDI noises. They do not seem to be discussing swimming pool accidents.

 

[Brini]

You asked for a scenario, and I gave you leaking swimming pool water.

The scenario has Caylee dead from drowning and swimming pool water leaking out of her mouth, so a piece of duct tape was used to stop the flow. However, it continued to leak from around the edges of the duct tape, so more tape was used until the leaking stopped.

Conjecture.

As you have opined, the jury will not be allowed to imagine a swimming pool. And, there is no physical evidence of same to submit to them.

All we have is the coroner's opinion- "homicide," and the placement of the duct tape on the baby's face.

 

[darnudes]

Bottom line is that no one knows if that tape was put on Caylee before or after she died. If LE know or have evidence to support a theory either way they haven't released it yet. So all else is speculation and conjecture. No one here can definitively state when the duct tape was put on Caylee.

 

[wonders]

As much as I hate to say it, duct taping the mouth isn't necessarily done with the intent to kill.

Indiana Teacher Fired for Duct Taping Kid's Mouth Shut
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480259,00.html

Disabled child hurt when stepfather rips duct tape from his mouth
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13169561

Child's Mouth Duct-Taped At Day Care, Says Family
LINDEN, Tenn. -- The parents of a Perry County child said their 4-year-old son had his mouth duct-taped by his teacher while attending day care.
http://www.wsmv.com/news/20949720/detail.html

All due respect JBean it is still sinister and the nose was not taped on these children.

 

[snow_walker]

well, okay, leaking pool water.. if my kid was leaking pool water I would be strongly tempted to try to get the water out of her lungs.. and to call 911. I am not all that sharp, so I doubt it would occur to me to tape her mouth shut, just in case she managed to catch a breath somehow. But perhaps that is exactly what another mother would do under the circumstances.

 

[Wudge]

Wudge, Caylee couldn't pull industrial strength duct tape off of her face. Regular duct tape can pull skin off. KC used the industrial strength going clear back into Caylee's hair.

Sitting on Caylee with her arms pinned underneath KC's legs would have left KC's arms free to apply the duct tape any way KC wanted to put it. It would have been especially easy if KC had the duct tape ready in advance. KC wouldn't have to bind Caylee. IIRC, it takes 4 minutes to die with your air shut off. Which would be a long and cruel time for Caylee, but not much effort for KC.

BUT, irregardless of all of that, there is no reason anyone would put THREE pieces of industrial strength duct tape over a child's mouth and nose except to kill the child.

Don't expect the judge to allow prosecutors to demonstrate your suspicion in the courtroom on a little girl -- thus still suspicion only.

 

[darnudes]

We don't have cause of death. There was no soft tissue left to examine. Suffocation is assessed by changes in the eyes, skin, and respiratory systems. None of that was present.

We DO know what effect occluding the airways with duct tape has.

Correct, however there were no airways left to examine. Your point is moot.

 

[Wudge]

Bottom line is that no one knows if that tape was put on Caylee before or after she died. If LE know or have evidence to support a theory either way they haven't released it yet. So all else is speculation and conjecture. No one here can definitively state when the duct tape was put on Caylee.

titcr