Premeditation

[Wudge]

TY! Houston's crime lab is a joke.

My father didn't work there...up in the Panhandle for 30 years as a Pathologist...he would curse a blue streak over stuff like this. My dad was the type of guy to flip one slide three ways to Sunday to find anything...he didn't care about how many slides he went through a day. Just sat at his desk with a recorder with three peddles...rewind...stop and record and dictate what he saw in it. Best I ever saw and probably will ever see.

I get the stuff that could be sealed. ie...Casey's reaction to the remains and subsequent behavior in front of Baez shortly thereafter (without audio). The first I think should be used at trial if needed. The later I think is a violation of the attorney client privilege and should not be used.

So there is a period of time that the defense has to review the evidence before we get it? It sounds like that should be the case regardless...so they have to review...object...try to seal it or whatever. Do they know in advance what documents they will be given by the Prosecution? I am just thinking that the release of the entomology stuff...given the tit for tat stuff going on between the SA and Baez that they released it before the hearing for a reason. But that is just me.

If there were coffin flies...that would be extremely damaging for the defense...but I have no knowledge that there were actual coffin flies involved. Guess we will find out in a week or more...but they did say that another document dump will happen within the week.

The other thing is we got the information on Casey's tattoo yesterday...but it was supposedly in the last document dump prior to yesterday. But it wasn't in that dump. I guess their Sunshine Law reads like sanscrit or stereo instructions to me...because I am still not understanding what happens after the state gives over the documents to the defense before we get them.

I'm sure your Father was a wonderful man who was filled with integrity. Stanch integrity in Houston's crime lab could have prevented hundreds (if not thousands) of wrongful convictions.

 

[Brini]

The death penalty was reinstated in America in 1976. From 1976 to date,1175 prisoners have been executed. During the same time, 130 prisoners have been exonerated.

The standard of review for the death penalty is 'no lingering doubt.' This is a step above 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'. Yet at that higher proof standard, the exoneration to conviction ratio is 130/1175. That's higher than 10%.

If we can't get death penalty verdicts called right, what hope is there for the rest of jury called verdicts?

(In the immortal words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and it is us".)

That has always been my fave Pogo quote!

However, don't forget, most of the exonerated were convicted PRIOR to the techno advancement in the use of DNA evidence (for one example).

As the technology improves even further, there will likely be fewer and fewer errors.

Evidence reliability will just keep getting better and better.

 

[Bittiness39]

The death penalty was reinstated in America in 1976. From 1976 to date,1175 prisoners have been executed. During the same time, 130 prisoners have been exonerated.

The standard of review for the death penalty is 'no lingering doubt.' This is a step above 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'. Yet at that higher proof standard, the exoneration to conviction ratio is 130/1175. That's higher than 10%.

If we can't get death penalty verdicts called right, what hope is there for the rest of jury called verdicts?

(In the immortal words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and it is us".)

To me, one innocent life lost is too many. But those are my views. I don't pretend nor would even suggest that anyone should hold my views. I always think of this quote from a movie (about debate...) "Listen to Me" that sums up my views on all life...and again...there are only my views. No one else should have to believe or think like me.

Imagine that you were creating a fabric of human destiny. With the object of making men and women happy in the end. Giving them peace and rest at last. But that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature. That little baby beating it's breast with it's fists for instance. And to found that edifice, that wonderful new world on that child's unavenged tears. Would you consent to being the architect on those conditions? Tell me ... and tell the truth.

The most I can hope for and believe in is that Caylee's tears will be avenged. Her mother will never leave jail. If she receives the DP...so be it. She is where she is at for a reason. But her death will not bring Caylee back.

The case against Casey will be primarily won if the jury members believe that Casey INTENDED for Caylee to die and that Caylee did not die from an accident. If the defense can poke holes in that aspect of the case, imo, Casey will walk...which would be a travesty...as I believe in my heart there was no such accident. At best...she drugged her and threw her in the trunk so she could enjoy her "date." At worst she drugged and/or just watched her suffocate.

I think right now a case could be made for both. An accidental drowning doesn't make KC look as bad as say throwing her in the trunk without intending her to die.

The strength of the prosecution's case will rest on whether there is enough evidence to prove that it was done with premeditation and intent to kill Caylee. Thus far, I have not seen any evidence that suggests an intent to kill. I have seen circumstantial stuff...but not enough to eliminate reasonable doubt.

What would ultimately take this case to the level of the DP is that the tape was intended to suffocate Caylee and cause her demise...or something with the body...cooberates that she was eliminated for a purpose.

If it was accidental death in the trunk/overdosing or both...each one doesn't rise to the same level as DP. You need intent and premeditation for that.

Given how long it took the state to put the DP back on the table after Caylee's remains were id'd and cause of death determined "homicide by undetermined means" something just tells me the state has something that made them decide to put it back on the table. Call it a hunch.

Speaking on the tape on her chest...I can't speak to any knowledge...but given how symbolic Casey is...could she have left a note with Caylee...? Likely it would have been disintegrated...but is it possible? Tagged her with a good bye letter and a heart sticker. I don't know.

But if KC fries...she has no one to blame but herself. I know I won't shed a tear...but I won't feel elation either. The only elation would be if Caylee had been found alive.

 

[ZsaZsa]

The death penalty was reinstated in America in 1976. From 1976 to date,1175 prisoners have been executed. During the same time, 130 prisoners have been exonerated.

The standard of review for the death penalty is 'no lingering doubt.' This is a step above 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'. Yet at that higher proof standard, the exoneration to conviction ratio is 130/1175. That's higher than 10%.

If we can't get death penalty verdicts called right, what hope is there for the rest of jury called verdicts?

(In the immortal words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and it is us".)

For myself I am very glad those 1175 were executed. They will never again repeat their crimes. That is the perfect deterrent.
From what I read of crimes and criminals as a layperson, my feeling is that the 130 were most likely exonerated by some technicality,legal maneuvering, high priced lawyering, and not because the initial Jury did not properly consider the evidence or apply the correct sentence. I have recently watched one in the town next to where I live; behind the scenes legal shenanigans have got him off- critical evidence that could not be presented to the Jury- there is also another case that makes every Citizen around here livid with anger,of a man who has now been convicted twice for the murder of his wife and 2 kids, the State Supreme court has tossed out those convictions and ordered another trial-on a technicality. This man should have been put to death already. The Jury has got it right twice now.... who is failing who? I would be very surprised if a totally innocent person was convicted and sentenced to death for a crime in which he had no part. From what we see here the odds are very much in favor of the criminal.

 

[Brini]

Imo, if it is a slam dunk that the tape was placed on her nose and mouth and it killed her, then Dr G would have been able to make that determination.

Perhaps the tape was applied post mortem but prior to decomposition. Therefore, I cannot conclude that this was the cause of death and as a result show clear premeditation.
If she died accidentally and a coverup by KC ensued then I am not sure I could vote premed. By accident it could certainly be an accident caused by negligence which could be argued to be premed in an of itself.

I think the state's argument is legitimate and I understand completely why things are leaning in this direction. I would need to see all the evidence put together and argued before I would be able to reach verdict.

The irony, as I see it and at this point, is that no one is arguing accidental death and consequently the states argument will go unanswered in terms of premeditation. It is going to come down to she did it by any means or she didn't do it at all... period.
Faced with that, the jury could very well return a guilty verdict even if the murder was not premeditated.
It could have been 100% accidental through no fault or negligence of KC and KC only disposed of a body in such a way that is against the law, filed a false report and endangered her child. Even though those crimes are serious, they are not murder 1 and any one of them would be a better conviction for KC than the charge at hand.
before anyone gets excited, I don't think that happened, I am just saynig that if it did happen, she is a fool to not defend it.

Nope! No slam dunk, here, honey.

The pathologist goes by soft tissue pathology. As previously discussed, she'd need the soft tissue changes to make an accurate determination of cause of death.

So says my microbiology prof-- who is a pathologist, anyway.

However, the placement of the tape may be what led Dr. G. to the verdict of homicide. Or, maybe not.

I was given examples, by my prof, in fact: Suppose the crime scene superficially reflected the likelyhood of suffocation. Victim bound, airways closed off.

However, there were no petacchi in the eyes, nor was there any cyanosis. Blood CO2 was not elevated. Clearly, the victim did not die by suffocation.

The pathologist would then have to pursue other changes in the soft tissues to isolate the cause of death.

Or, another example. A human skeleton found hanged by the neck from a tree. If the actual cause of death was, say, acute poisoning, and the hanging was postmortem, it would be impossible to assess that. No soft tissues.

Or, a guy was shot in the chest. However, what killed him was the cerebrovascular accident that he suffered, when he saw the gun (true story).

Here's one from my personal work history. Guy fell and hit his head at work. He was dizzy, went home, and died that night. It appeared that his death was the result of an accident at work. However, the coroner found that a previous head injury from years back had reopened. There was no damage to the head from the LATEST fall. In summary, he didn't become dizzy because he fell, he fell because he was dizzy. And a five-year-old injury is what killed him.

So.. how would Dr. G. figure out whether Caylee's death was caused by suffocation, with no eyes, other tissues, and no blood?

 

[Bittiness39]

I'm sure your Father was a wonderful man who was filled with integrity. Stanch integrity in Houston's crime lab could have prevented hundreds (if not thousands) of wrongful convictions.

TY!!!! :angel:

 

[Bakersmom]

IMHO - Casey, without a shadow of a doubt, is responsible for Caylees death. IMHO - Casey, should be convicted, I have absolutely no doubt given the enormous amount of evidence (circumstantial and otherwise) that she is guilty, and premeditation can occur within seconds.
She willingly and intentionally did harm to her minor child, she willingly and intentionally obstructed justice, she willingly and intentionally with malice neglected the well being of her minor child.

I agree that there are a few cases in which innocent people have been convicted. This is not at all one of those cases. Any innocent person would have been screaming at the top of their lungs from Day 1 that their child was missing, any innocent person would have been screaming at the top of their lungs from Day 1 that they were wrongfully accused and not spewing really insignificant lies that would make you look even more guilty. The point I am trying to make is that Casey did it, nobody else.Nobody had the opportunity or the motive, but Casey did. If it were an accident, Casey would have used that "out" after she was busted on the lies about Universal. Unfortunately, if they unravelled the truth about that they would have unravelled the "accident truth" too, so she "has" to keep up with her "script story", because Lord knows she doesn't want to look like an idiot again on national television that she lied again. She will stick to her story until she dies, even if it means the death penalty or a very long prison sentence. And her family cannot comprehend the real ugly truth. And that, my folks is my humble opinion. Guilty with premeditation and yes, she deserves the death penalty.

 

[Jolynna]

The state is claiming Caylee (a child under 12) was killed by KC in the course of committing aggravated child abuse.

There is no requirement for a specific cause of death to bring a first degree charge to trial. Or to convict.

The Florida Supreme Court has already determined that putting duct tape over the mouth and nose of a dead human being is not a reasonable hypothesis. (Hicks vs State)
imo

 

[Wudge]

For myself I am very glad those 1175 were executed. They will never again repeat their crimes. That is the perfect deterrent.
From what I read of crimes and criminals as a layperson, my feeling is that the 130 were most likely exonerated by some technicality,legal maneuvering, high priced lawyering, and not because the initial Jury did not properly consider the evidence or apply the correct sentence. I have recently watched one in the town next to where I live; behind the scenes legal shenanigans have got him off- critical evidence that could not be presented to the Jury- there is also another case that makes every Citizen around here livid with anger,of a man who has now been convicted twice for the murder of his wife and 2 kids, the State Supreme court has tossed out those convictions and ordered another trial-on a technicality. This man should have been put to death already. The Jury has got it right twice now.... who is failing who? I would be very surprised if a totally innocent person was convicted and sentenced to death for a crime in which he had no part. From what we see here the odds are very much in favor of the criminal.

The 130 exonerations were not based on a sleight-of-hand manuver by a lawyer or a legal technicality. These poor souls were wrongfully convicted and had their lives ruined -- as well as the lives of their family members. If it were not for DNA, many of them would surely have been wrongfully executed.

 

[Brini]

The 130 exonerations were not based on a sleight-of-hand manuver by a lawyer or a legal technicality. These poor souls were wrongfully convicted and had their lives ruined -- as well as the lives of their family members. If it were not for DNA, many of them would surely have been wrongfully executed.

This is true, and that was very unfair. The Sam Sheppard case was an example of wrongful conviction.

However, NOW we DO have the DNA tech, as well as other advanced forensic technologies. This isn't the 1970s.

 

[Bakersmom]

The defense is not opposing child abuse or neglect. It is reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was abused at some point, because she is now dead. It is also reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was neglected which may have resulted in her death. For example, Caylee was obviously getting on Casey's nerves from what the witness at WalMart stated. Who is to say that at the next shopping area, Caylee was left in the car, dies of heat stroke? A death from high temperatures can result in foam and bubbleing coming out of ones mouth upon death, could be that Casey put her in the trunk after discovery and grabbed the duct tape off the gas cans back there to "seal" up Caylees mouth and drove back home to "drop her off for a bit in the backyard"
Just a theory....

 

[ZsaZsa]

The 130 exonerations were not based on a sleight-of-hand manuver by a lawyer or a legal technicality. These poor souls were wrongfully convicted and had their lives ruined -- as well as the lives of their family members. If it were not for DNA, many of them would surely have been wrongfully executed.

Why were those 130 'poor souls' convicted in the first place? Were all the Labs incompetent, all the Jurors out for blood, all the defense Attorneys hopeless,all the Prosecutors out to persecute innocent people in order to improve their statistics?
We have a couple of 'poor souls' in our area right now, unfortunately. I'm afraid your argument has no resonance with me, so I will agree to disagree with you, I just don't believe it and so I will get back on topic.

 

[Wudge]

To me, one innocent life lost is too many. But those are my views. I don't pretend nor would even suggest that anyone should hold my views. I always think of this quote from a movie (about debate...) "Listen to Me" that sums up my views on all life...and again...there are only my views. No one else should have to believe or think like me.

Imagine that you were creating a fabric of human destiny. With the object of making men and women happy in the end. Giving them peace and rest at last. But that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature. That little baby beating it's breast with it's fists for instance. And to found that edifice, that wonderful new world on that child's unavenged tears. Would you consent to being the architect on those conditions? Tell me ... and tell the truth.

The most I can hope for and believe in is that Caylee's tears will be avenged. Her mother will never leave jail. If she receives the DP...so be it. She is where she is at for a reason. But her death will not bring Caylee back.

The case against Casey will be primarily won if the jury members believe that Casey INTENDED for Caylee to die and that Caylee did not die from an accident. If the defense can poke holes in that aspect of the case, imo, Casey will walk...which would be a travesty...as I believe in my heart there was no such accident. At best...she drugged her and threw her in the trunk so she could enjoy her "date." At worst she drugged and/or just watched her suffocate.

I think right now a case could be made for both. An accidental drowning doesn't make KC look as bad as say throwing her in the trunk without intending her to die.

The strength of the prosecution's case will rest on whether there is enough evidence to prove that it was done with premeditation and intent to kill Caylee. Thus far, I have not seen any evidence that suggests an intent to kill. I have seen circumstantial stuff...but not enough to eliminate reasonable doubt.

What would ultimately take this case to the level of the DP is that the tape was intended to suffocate Caylee and cause her demise...or something with the body...cooberates that she was eliminated for a purpose.

If it was accidental death in the trunk/overdosing or both...each one doesn't rise to the same level as DP. You need intent and premeditation for that.

Given how long it took the state to put the DP back on the table after Caylee's remains were id'd and cause of death determined "homicide by undetermined means" something just tells me the state has something that made them decide to put it back on the table. Call it a hunch.

Speaking on the tape on her chest...I can't speak to any knowledge...but given how symbolic Casey is...could she have left a note with Caylee...? Likely it would have been disintegrated...but is it possible? Tagged her with a good bye letter and a heart sticker. I don't know.

But if KC fries...she has no one to blame but herself. I know I won't shed a tear...but I won't feel elation either. The only elation would be if Caylee had been found alive.

This case is shaping up to be very much in tune with the convictions of Darlie Routier and Cynthia Sommer. A conviction based not on clear and unyielding evidence but rather on the emotions of jurors who don't like the defendant's behavior (a Salem, 1692 style conviction).

 

[Brini]

The defense is not opposing child abuse or neglect. It is reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was abused at some point, because she is now dead. It is also reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was neglected which may have resulted in her death. For example, Caylee was obviously getting on Casey's nerves from what the witness at WalMart stated. Who is to say that at the next shopping area, Caylee was left in the car, dies of heat stroke? A death from high temperatures can result in foam and bubbleing coming out of ones mouth upon death, could be that Casey put her in the trunk after discovery and grabbed the duct tape off the gas cans back there to "seal" up Caylees mouth and drove back home to "drop her off for a bit in the backyard"
Just a theory....

Your guess is as good as anyone else's.

Bottom line: The defense had better have an explanation for the tape that will satisfy the jurors.

 

[ZsaZsa]

The defense is not opposing child abuse or neglect. It is reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was abused at some point, because she is now dead. It is also reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was neglected which may have resulted in her death. For example, Caylee was obviously getting on Casey's nerves from what the witness at WalMart stated. Who is to say that at the next shopping area, Caylee was left in the car, dies of heat stroke? A death from high temperatures can result in foam and bubbleing coming out of ones mouth upon death, could be that Casey put her in the trunk after discovery and grabbed the duct tape off the gas cans back there to "seal" up Caylees mouth and drove back home to "drop her off for a bit in the backyard"
Just a theory....

That's a very likely scenario. In Florida heat, it would not take long in a closed car for a kid that had ?been sedated, to expire.

 

[Brini]

This case is shaping up to be very much in tune with the convictions of Darlie Routier and Cynthia Sommer. A conviction based not on clear and unyielding evidence but rather on the emotions of jurors who don't like the defendant's behavior (a Salem, 1692 style conviction).

What would you consider clear and unyielding evidence. Other than an eyewitness, which is almost never present?

 

[Bittiness39]

The defense is not opposing child abuse or neglect. It is reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was abused at some point, because she is now dead. It is also reasonable to ascertain that Caylee was neglected which may have resulted in her death. For example, Caylee was obviously getting on Casey's nerves from what the witness at WalMart stated. Who is to say that at the next shopping area, Caylee was left in the car, dies of heat stroke? A death from high temperatures can result in foam and bubbleing coming out of ones mouth upon death, could be that Casey put her in the trunk after discovery and grabbed the duct tape off the gas cans back there to "seal" up Caylees mouth and drove back home to "drop her off for a bit in the backyard"
Just a theory....

IIRC the defense wants the child abuse/neglect charges thrown out along with the DP charge. Everyone has their particular theories...but I still think given what was going on between KC and her mom at the moment...and there was no ZFG to speak of...no babysitter so she could enjoy her night with her boyfriend of the month...she likely pushed the seats down...shoved Caylee in the trunk...may or may not have drugged her...may or may not have put duct tape on her mouth...may have kept the seats down...Caylee fell asleep in fetal position and died in the trunk. Mommy dearest comes back from her fabulous date to see no live Caylee. But this would not rise to the level of a death penalty case...I don't think. However horrific.

But if she intended to kill Caylee an entirely different matter.

The real crux of the issue to me about the above is did she intend to cause death and can the state prove that out with evidence...?

I truly believe that KC meant to kill her. But I haven't seen a direct solid piece of evidence that says she did. I have seen a lot of circumstantial evidence. KC is clearly responsible for the death of Caylee. KC is scum and should be in the shower room right now cleaning the floor with a toothbrush to earn that stinking money in her commissary account. JMO.

 

[Bakersmom]

This case is shaping up to be very much in tune with the convictions of Darlie Routier and Cynthia Sommer. A conviction based not on clear and unyielding evidence but rather on the emotions of jurors who don't like the defendant's behavior (a Salem, 1692 style conviction).

Honestly.... I believe both Darlie and Cynthia would be agree to Casey's guilt given the amount of evidence piling up. It is 2009, we have come a long way in how crime and evidence is processed and have become quite eloquent in how the results are worded in reports. I would also think that both of those women would be mortified by compareing them to Casey. And let me add... I think both those women are indeed guilty as well.

 

[Bittiness39]

This case is shaping up to be very much in tune with the convictions of Darlie Routier and Cynthia Sommer. A conviction based not on clear and unyielding evidence but rather on the emotions of jurors who don't like the defendant's behavior (a Salem, 1692 style conviction).

I would imagine though amoung the many differences in this case from the others...is that neither was driving around in a car reaking of dead toddler. Blaming a phantom nanny.

But you are correct in the sense that I have seen nothing that can show YET (and I stress the YET because I believe that the dark lass that is KC will be found guilty and rightfully so) that it was an accidental car death/death by trunk/death by drugging and car...NOR a deliberate attempt to kill her. That is where the reasonable doubt lies. The state is charged with proving that the defendent killed her with premeditation and obvious neglect. The defense only has to present reasonable doubt.

I know that most think we have seen all we are going to see that suggests premeditation...ect...that there are no smoking guns. Nothing that will make that link stick. I am betting my almost paid for car that there is. Call it a hunch. JMO.

 

[Jolynna]

TY! Houston's crime lab is a joke.

My father didn't work there...up in the Panhandle for 30 years as a Pathologist...he would curse a blue streak over stuff like this. My dad was the type of guy to flip one slide three ways to Sunday to find anything...he didn't care about how many slides he went through a day. Just sat at his desk with a recorder with three peddles...rewind...stop and record and dictate what he saw in it. Best I ever saw and probably will ever see.

I get the stuff that could be sealed. ie...Casey's reaction to the remains and subsequent behavior in front of Baez shortly thereafter (without audio). The first I think should be used at trial if needed. The later I think is a violation of the attorney client privilege and should not be used.

So there is a period of time that the defense has to review the evidence before we get it? It sounds like that should be the case regardless...so they have to review...object...try to seal it or whatever. Do they know in advance what documents they will be given by the Prosecution? I am just thinking that the release of the entomology stuff...given the tit for tat stuff going on between the SA and Baez that they released it before the hearing for a reason. But that is just me.

If there were coffin flies...that would be extremely damaging for the defense...but I have no knowledge that there were actual coffin flies involved. Guess we will find out in a week or more...but they did say that another document dump will happen within the week.

The other thing is we got the information on Casey's tattoo yesterday...but it was supposedly in the last document dump prior to yesterday. But it wasn't in that dump. I guess their Sunshine Law reads like sanscrit or stereo instructions to me...because I am still not understanding what happens after the state gives over the documents to the defense before we get them.

BBM

I agree with you that the release of the entomology report before the hearing is for a purpose.

Finding coffin flies wouldn't be the nail in KC's coffin. Not finding blow flies along with the coffin flies would be a problem. The adipocere (found on the napkins in KC's car trunk) is also not great for KC. Not finding blow flies and finding the "grave wax" (which needs an anaerobic environment to form & survive) suggests Caylee was sealed in the trunk soon after death (or even while still alive).

I'm going to start a thread about what it would mean if blow flies (or blow fly maggots, or blow fly casings) weren't found in the trunk and coffin flies were.
jmo