Premeditation

[RR0004]

It sounds like you consider Ray Kronk to be an innocent bystander. It's been quite awhile (Furhman comes to mind) since I ran into a more preposterous storyline than his. Kronk should end up under the bus; his claims truly boggle the mind.

It just happens to be that a former bountry hunter accidently collects on the reward in this case? That's a ... Ripley eat your heart out story.

Evidence please that he's NOT telling the truth?

 

[Wudge]

Than why have others wrote about lesser included charges, and you have not corrected them?

Someone throw me a bone here. Marspiter (spell?) I think wrote about the possible murder convictions. I just don't believe it is all or nothin!

Manslaughter is generally considered to be lesser charge to murder. And a manslaughter charge is on the table. It's just not murder.

HTH

 

[RR0004]

I especially like the scorched earth theory when it applies to defense throwing innocent victims under the bus. Which this team has and will continue to do. If there are ethics to abide by...why bother if you are a prosecutor when the defense can simply say a random phantom nanny did it...when no such nanny exists nor will ever be proven to exist. KC's check fraud conviction should convince her to stray from her ridiculous notions of a mistrial. She'll be in jail for a while. Which is where someone who has not contributed anything other than grief to the human experience belongs.

BTW, you are cool.

Well, I sure hope no one is expecting a "scorched earth" performance by JB...cause that just ain't happening IMHO.

 

[Wudge]

Evidence please that he's NOT telling the truth?

As I said, his story is Ripley material, and unlike Casey, Kronk cannot avoid taking the stand. He's a dream come true for a defense attorney. His cross is certain to be a real crowd pleaser.

You know how you hear ooooo's and ahhhhh's when the fireworks go off, just wait for Kronk's cross. The 4th of July is coming to the courtroom early next year.

(chuckle)

 

[RR0004]

I'll let Casey's defense team have at it before I critique them. They need to satisfy their clients defense wishes (SODDI?) but they also need to strongly attack premeditation. I've been on the lack of proof to support murder one from the earliest days of this case. The heart sticker, the lack of duct tape being wrapped around the skull, Caylee's hands not being bound and now multiple and very short strips of duct tape et al. Add in the fact that driving around with a body in the trunk of your car for days -- as the State alleges -- certainly works against a planned and deliberated murder, and presto, reasonable doubt in spades.

Then we have the meter reader and his absurd story; he's a death spiral waiting to go down in flames on the witness stand.

The material is there to put on a stellar Broadway performance and the defense crosses should be truly brutal -- I admit to enjoying scortched-earth, cross-examinations by a defense attorney, call it a weakness.

(chuckle)

Very short strips of duct tape? She was a two year old!! How much tape would you want around her skull to reconsider Murder 1...wrapped like a mummy?

I tried to copy the duct tape photo from the FOX website, but it blew out the margins. Go and take a look...'cause the tape I saw was pretty long.

ETA: are you assuming he's lying because of how he behaved, or as you called it...his "performance"?

 

[RR0004]

As I said, his story is Ripley material, and unlike Casey, Kronk cannot avoid taking the stand. He's a dream come true for a defense attorney. His cross is certain to be a real crowd pleaser.

You know how you hear ooooo's and ahhhhh's when the fireworks go off, just wait for Kronk's cross. The 4th of July is coming to the courtroom early next year.

(chuckle)

I still want evidence that he's not telling the truth.

 

[Bittiness39]

Ah. I would wait a bit. The defense Casey's team offers up could well change.

If it were me, I certainly would look to misdirect and surprise the prosecutors at the latest possible moment.

Love your logic...but there are no obvious suspects. Only KC was driving around in a car with a dead toddler and wiping her decomp on paper towels. KC is the suspect. The defense should be looking at an accidental death theory...not some bull about a nanny that WILL never be proven to exist. She doesn't exist. There was never a nanny. Her friends didn't kill Caylee...no motive...maybe the squirrels and the pizza did it. LOL. :banghead:

 

[KeenEyes]

Brini
Thank you. I am so uneducated and wish I knew how to get my point across like you and so many others here on WS. I give up but will be reading what all of you great people have to say.

I recognize your avatar so I know I have read at least some of your posts, and I don't recall finding that they revealed your level of education (or lack thereof). I don't think many, if any, of us at WS read posts according to a specific criteria, other than the rules of order established by the administrator and moderators. It defeats the purpose of a forum. It is to be expected though that any contributor will at least be familiar with the topic and form an opinion responsibly, of course.

There will be the occasional gem by a particularly gifted writer or skilled sleuth which is well-received, and there will be some which consist of articulate, enjoyable speech and sound argument, even if not grammatically correct.

Additionally, there are many highly intelligent people who have not had the luxury of formal education; not that intelligence guarantees meaningful dialogue.

Don't dwell too much on what you write in your posts and rest assured no one else will--no one has the time. For what it is worth, I encourage you to continue to express your point of view as it is inherently unique and one to which the world wouldn't be privy if you didn't exist.

 

[RR0004]

I previously offered up pool water leakage and still do.

Oh, boy. It would be pretty interesting to time how long it would take for that leakage to stop. And the point of that...she didn't want to get water in her trunk? What does it matter really if she triple bagged her anyway?

 

[Wudge]

Very short strips of duct tape? She was a two year old? How much tape would you want around her skull to reconsider Murder 1...wrapped like a mummy?

I tried to copy the duct tape photo from the FOX website, but it blew out the margins. Go and take a look...'cause the tape I saw was pretty long.

That's the point. The duct tape was too short to go around her head.

Duct tape too short to go around her head along with her hands not being bound and pretty little hearts. That's not a combination that works for premeditation. Rather, it works against it.

 

[RR0004]

You read the tape as heinous evidence of premeditation. I read the tape as evidence that works against premeditation, because Caylee hands were not bound, heart stickers certainly do not suggest sinister intentions in my book and, most importantly, the tape is neither said nor claimed to be the instrument of death.

Regarding demonization, Casey has certainly suffered that fate. My high-profile case lessons strongly suggest there's an excellent chance it's unwarranted. However, our culture seems to have adopted demonization as an enjoyable form of sport. Holding to the presumption of innocence has definitely lost its cache in recent decades. Go figure.

Unwarranted? Yikes...even her family couldn't agree with you on that one.

 

[RR0004]

That's the point. The duct tape was too short to go around her head.

Duct tape too short to go around her head along with her hands not being bound and pretty little hearts. That's not a combination that works for premeditation. Rather, it works against it.

Nope...long enough. Have you ever held a 2 year old's face in your hands? Anyway...why would she want to attach the tape firmly (?) to hair? There would be more of a likelihood of slippage...and that wouldn't have served her purpose now would it? So you are suggesting she would have to be wrapped like a mummy in order to show premeditation.

 

[RR0004]

Brini
Thank you. I am so uneducated and wish I knew how to get my point across like you and so many others here on WS. I give up but will be reading what all of you great people have to say.

Please keep posting Wonder. Your opinions are most welcome and I do value them a great deal.

oxoxoxo

 

[Bittiness39]

That's the point. The duct tape was too short to go around her head.

Duct tape too short to go around her head along with her hands not being bound and pretty little hearts. That's not a combination that works for premeditation. Rather, it works against it.

Save for the heart sticker. There is nothing to suggest anyone else was involved in Caylee's demise than her glorious mother. I'll bet she is stuffing her face right now on pastries from her commissary account. Cuz she was arrested on a "whim." According to her own words, "What has been given can be taken away. Everyone lies. Everyone dies." There is no other SODDI. There is not proof of an accident/murder that I ahve seen. Other than KC knows the truth and WILL not SPEAK. She deserves whatever fate she has dealt for herself. The prosecutors are not painting her in an unfair light. She is.

 

[RR0004]

I said: "The point is that based on all the evidence in the public domain, people in this forum have hundreds, if not thousands, of different holdings on what transpired. Obviously, this immemse breadth of view and holding points to an immense lack of clarity -- a smog pot centric case. This is true not only as regards premeditation and the murder one charge, but lesser charges as well.

This lack of clarity exists, because the evidence itself does not provide a high degree of clarity. And when the evidence does not provide a high degree of clarity, then people must necessarily guess amongst a large number of options."

I didnt say that you or others lack clarity in presenting hypos or alleged storylines. People here are certainly clear enough. But their hypos or storylines are anything but consistent as regards what transpired. And when the evidence is not clear, you will find an immense breadth of output as regards how people read the evidence and interpret what must have transpired. That lack of unity establishes that the evidence is ambiguous and open wide to interpretation. In other words, the evidence itself is not clear and does not produce for storyline consistency (not even close) on what transpired. In a non high-profile case, that would significantly favor the defense.

We'll just have to disagree on this one 'cause I sure as heck don't see it that way.

 

[RR0004]

Thanks LB35. I too am not convinced on the premed charge and that is the question.
She is charged with premeditated murder. Can the SA prove that and so she will be found guilty? or should the SA have charged her with something else? felony murder perhaps?

Why do we keep forgetting the "aggravated child abuse" tied in with Murder 1 (I know this is the premed thread)?

 

[sleutherontheside]

I'll put it this way.....I welcome the opportunity to listen to the defense explain away so many of our doubts with credible evidence. Insert "crickets chirping here".

 

[JBean]

Originally Posted by Wudge View Post


What do you mean by no murder conviction.
What happened to the lesser charges?
Are you saying if she is not found guilty of premeditated murder she will walk?

If she is convicted of say, manslaughter, that would not be a murder conviction . If the jury were instructed on felony murder, (although she is not currently charged with that) that would be a murder conviction.
The reason this thread is focused on the premeditation involved is because she is charged with premeditated murder and we are trying to determine if there is enough to prove premeditated murder in order to get a murder conviction.

The Cameron Brown trial is not a parallel to KC's case, but a good example of what can happen with a jury. There have been 2 mistrials. Not because any of the jurors thought the father was innocent of killing his little daughter, but because they could not agree on manslaughter or murder. IOW, they all agree he had a hand in her death, but they could not agree to what extent. He was charged with first degree and they were stuck between 2nd degree and manslaughter!

OS ANGELES—A second mistrial was declared Monday in the case of a former airline baggage handler accused of murdering his 4-year-old daughter by throwing her off a cliff into the Pacific Ocean.
The jury deliberated the fate of Cameron Brown for weeks before conceding another deadlock, with six jurors favoring second-degree murder and the other half supporting involuntary manslaughter.
The 48-year-old Brown was charged with first-degree murder for the death of Lauren Sarene Key in November 2000 in Rancho Palos Verdes. The charge included the special circumstance allegations of murder for financial gain and murder while lying in wait,
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13492197

 

[JBean]

Here is a little more on Cameron brown from a juror,which goes to what we are talking about:

"Nobody thought he was not guilty," said Dreskin, a doctor who works for Kaiser Permanente. "It was primarily a decision between if there was intent or not, not the method of the fall, the mechanism of the fall, as important as those things were, it wasn't the final sticking point. It was this question of intent."

Remember jurors are given specific instructions and so they have to deliberate the way they are told. This brings us back to the question as to whether there is enough to support Murder 1. so that a jury can convict on it.

 

[Imbackon]

Why do we keep forgetting the "aggravated child abuse" tied in with Murder 1 (I know this is the premed thread)?

When Manslaughter is a Felony of the First Degree

While Manslaughter generally is a felony of the second degree, some instances of manslaughter constitute a felony of the first degree.
When person causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence, this person commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, and in the State of Florida this type of manslaughter is a felony of the first degree

ETA, not that I DON'T believe she'll be found guilty of 1st degree premed murder anyway