Prior Vaginal Trauma

[ChuckMaureen]

What I'm sure of is that most "adult women" are not aware of the condition of their hymen when they were 6 years old. UNLESS they were molested, bet they'd know for sure. As a woman and one that raised 2 daughters, I can tell you that my daughters rarely had UTI's and NEVER had yeast and other infections of their internal sexual organs. The first time I took my oldest to the doctor with a UTI his advice was "absolutely no bubble baths" and guess what, no more UTI's. What I don't and have never understood is all of the dr. visits that JB made. Patsy Ramsey was looking for an answer and she either never got the one she wanted or she failed miserably to follow the dr's advice. She was not a stupid woman and I want to know why LE didn't question her extensively about those doctor visits. Also, if Dr. Beuf was not called to testify to the Grand Jury, then I can't see the reason to even covene it. Normal six year old girls don't have to go to the doctor umpteen times a year with UTI's and yeast infections and they don't soil their underpants or have to have help wiping, even from non-family members. I know some of the posters who believe these things are not indicative of molestation are men and I guess I can almost understand that, but I cannot understand a woman who would not recognize these signs for what they were: she was being abused! I don't proclaim to know who did it, but someone did it. Look at autopsy reports all you like, but the autopsy report you should be concerned with was probably never done. Was there a psychological autopsy done on JonBenet? I bet not. The family would never have allowed it. If you are not familiar with what that term means, please go here: http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Autopsy-Psychological.html

RANT OVER

Hi, joeskidbeck,

You seem quite intent, without prevarication, in categorizing the condition of JBR's genital region as being the result of molestation.

I do understand your position. It's difficult to ignore an "alarm bell" after previous experience has honed and polished the bellform and clapper.

But surely you understand that such a conclusion can not be definitive without supportive medical and other history beyond the information offered in the autopsy report that describes a condition that is more common to pathology and / or physical causes other than molestation. Include bed wetting and doctor visits. Collectively, are they "indicators" of molestation? Not always and that is just as valid an observation as is yours.

Your hard conclusion would have to implicate Dr. Beuf, since certainly he would have to be in on the cover-up. Why would he risk his practice? Why would he not question the frequency of necessary visits unless he had concluded to other cause? There is no evidence of conspiracy nor of cover up.

"Doctor B, my little JonBenet has this vaginal infection, can you fix? hush hush". It's possible it was a result of molestation but moreso as unlikely.

There are other possible causes for what was described in the autopsy and for her behaviors. Molestation isn't and shouldn't be an automatic diagnosis, although it definitely should be investigated and ruled out or addressed immediately and appropriately.

JBR might have suffered from an immunity disturbance or perpetual bacterial infections caused by poor hygiene or even overzealous hygiene.

Given how JBR was pampered to the nth degree, all that pampering was teaching JBR to be reliant upon whomever was her caretaker of the moment.

Once JBR had someone unquestioningly wipe for her, I suspect that royal treatment went a long way in instilling such dependent behavior. I'm wet, dry me. I've messed, wipe me. To a 6 year old, wouldn't that seem as "normal", given that might have been all she'd experienced during her life? Queens are as Queens do.

I've read comments attributed to BR (during interviews) that indicated he was at times jealous of the heightened attention JBR received. I suspect his personal experience was often a stark contrast.

I also suspect if JBR had learned to properly wipe herself, she would have suffered less often from infection since she would have learned to be careful on the upstroke (if she could not perform a downstroke) whereas, someone wiping for her might not be as careful nor observant as to what ended up where, with JBR oblivious as to consequence.

If there was abuse, I expect Dr. Beuf would have been aware, at least inwardly and when JBR was murdered why would he not come forward? Why would he remain friends with the abuser(s) and risk being "found out" during an investigation of the murder of a 6 year old?

Fear? Perhaps, but we'd be making assumptions beyond realities that are more common.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

1) I think their hymens would have tears, not erosion.

2)Even if they did, were their vaginal walls eroded, too?

Wall erosion can result from chronic inflammation, as tissue breaks down and sheds.

 

[BBB167893]

Wall erosion can result from chronic inflammation, as tissue breaks down and sheds.

All in one spot, though?

 

[ChuckMaureen]

All in one spot, though?

Pathology and potential chronic supervenities are not democratic. It is most common for infections and inflammations to "favor" a location (typically areas prone to weak or even increased immune response).

 

[BBB167893]

Pathology and potential chronic supervenities are not democratic. It is most common for infections and inflammations to "favor" a location (typically areas prone to weak or even increased immune response).

I'm just trying to figure this stuff out, Chuck. What you've said so far has a lot behind it, but to me, it's not a question of "this one thing proves molestation." It's the combination of all the elements.

 

[Tadpole12]

I do not rule out moderate or even perpetual sexual abuse as a possible cause. - CM

Hiya CM.

What is "moderate sexual abuse"?
Do you mean occasional vs longterm?

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I'm just trying to figure this stuff out, Chuck. What you've said so far has a lot behind it, but to me, it's not a question of "this one thing proves molestation." It's the combination of all the elements.

I agree that taken as a whole, it might appear the situation indicates molestation but very important aspects are missing, such as:

JBR's reported demeanor.

Where is the depression? and / or
Where is the acting out? and / or
Where is the bad-girl behavior? and / or
Where are the tantrums? and / or
Where is the introvertive brooding?

I'm not implying none of that occurred, but to date I have not read anything that leads me to have to include those in the 'overall picture'.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I do not rule out moderate or even perpetual sexual abuse as a possible cause. - CM

Hiya CM.

What is "moderate sexual abuse"?
Do you mean occasional vs longterm?

Hi, Tadpole12,

Casual, as in random "playful" (perhaps once this week, then again three weeks later, maybe again in a few days, then not for another 3 months), as opposed to structured or scheduled abuse that fulfills a regular desire or need.

 

[Tadpole12]

Let us not forget JBR was a pageant girl who practiced dance and various movements while learning her presentation craft. Ask any adult woman whom began active sports or horseback riding when they were 6 or 7, if their hymen was eroded at that time? I'm sure more than a few would confirm.

Heyya CM.

So, you're suggesting dance movements may cause erosion of the hymen?

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi, Tadpole12,

Casual, as in random "playful" (perhaps once this week, then again three weeks later, maybe again in a few days, then not for another 3 months), as opposed to structured or scheduled abuse that fills a regular desire or need.

Gosh.
Hugh? "playful", odd terminology for inappropriate sexual contact, that would encompass penetration with an object or finger?

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Heyya CM.

So, you're suggesting dance movements may cause erosion of the hymen?

Under certain conditions, yes. Tight-fit 'wedged' clothing and repetitive and prolonged movements can cause erosion of the hymen or other contacted tissues.

Horseback riding and gymnastics also play their role.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Gosh.
Hugh? "playful", odd terminology for inappropriate sexual contact, that would encompass penetration with an object or finger?

There are multiple ways of which to apply terminology .. one might include from an LE perspective, another might include from a perp perspective.

From a perp's pespective, s/he approaches their victim with a "playful" attitude as a coersive tactic.

 

[Tadpole12]

There are multiple ways of which to apply terminology .. one might include from an LE perspective, another might include from a perp perspective.

From a perp's pespective, s/he approaches their victim with a "playful" attitude as a coersive tactic.

s'cool,
cause it did sound/read right creepy,
sorry for my misinterpretation,
if it was said as portraying the mindset of a perp, then I understand the delivery.

 

[BBB167893]

I agree that taken as a whole, it might appear the situation indicates molestation but very important aspects are missing, such as:

JBR's reported demeanor.

Where is the depression? and / or
Where is the acting out? and / or
Where is the bad-girl behavior? and / or
Where are the tantrums? and / or
Where is the introvertive brooding?

I'm not implying none of that occurred, but to date I have not read anything that leads me to have to include those in the 'overall picture'.

Well, before I get into that, I should just point out that something like 90% of abused children show no outward signs at all. It's called Child Abuse Accomodation Syndrome.

That said, around two years ago, Pam Griffin said in an interview that Patsy had expressed concern over JB being too friendly and flirting with people. That was the word she used. There are also stories about her arguing with her mother, stomping on Burke's toys, etc. And then there are those late pageant pictures. She looks like a little zombie.

Thoughts?

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Well, before I get into that, I should just point out that something like 90% of abused children show no outward signs at all. It's called Child Abuse Accomodation Syndrome.

That said, around two years ago, Pam Griffin said in an interview that Patsy had expressed concern over JB being too friendly and flirting with people. That was the word she used. There are also stories about her arguing with her mother, stomping on Burke's toys, etc. And then there are those late pageant pictures. She looks like a little zombie.

Thoughts?

CAAS .. for a pageant-child like JBR, who was trained and seemingly enjoyed to present and pomp I would expect her to act out if she was being sexually abused, not clam up.

I don't believe it would be a 'secret' she could keep .. because how would her parents have introduced it to her from the beginning? As a secret pageant ritual, perhaps?

JBR consistently was exposed to many people on the pageant circuit, and also during family and friends parties .. and perhaps comparatively often for such a young girl. I do not believe the Rs would risk JBR revealing such a 'secret' if that secret existed.

As for the "too friendly" and "flirting" perceptions of PR regarding JBR's demeanor, how can such behavior be removed from the inherent result of pageant training and socializing during R parties?

As for JBR having argued with her mother and having stomped on Burke's toys .. such behavior, in context, typically is considered as "normal" when the child does not know how to deal with discipline, frustration, anger or fear of the unknown.

And then there are those late pageant pictures. She looks like a little zombie.

I am not sure to which specific photos you refer, but given the repetitive training, rehersals, clothing changes, performance runs and competition pressures I would not find it unusual if JBR presented as being tired of or worn out from the process from time to time.

 

[BBB167893]

CAAS .. for a pageant-child like JBR, who was trained and seemingly enjoyed to present and pomp I would expect her to act out if she was being sexually abused, not clam up.

It's exactly the training that bothers me, Chuck.

FWIW, I think she told the secret to exactly the wrong person, and that's WHY she ended up dead.

I don't believe it would be a 'secret' she could keep .. because how would her parents have introduced it to her from the beginning?

The same way all abusers introduce it. Most children don't even know it's wrong, especially if the person is a loved one.

As a secret pageant ritual, perhaps?

If that's a joke, it's not funny.

JBR consistently was exposed to many people on the pageant circuit, and also during family and friends parties .. and perhaps comparatively often for such a young girl. I do not believe the Rs would risk
JBR revealing such a 'secret' if that secret existed.

Kids are very easy to control and manipulate, Chuck. That's why they make such good victims.

As for the "too friendly" and "flirting" perceptions of PR regarding JBR's demeanor, how can such behavior be removed from the inherent result of pageant training and socializing during R parties?

Probably the same way as she referred to herself as a "sexy little witch." Tell me that's appropriate for a kid.

As for JBR having argued with her mother and having stomped on Burke's toys .. such behavior, in context, typically is considered as "normal" when the child does not know how to deal with discipline, frustration, anger or fear of the unknown.

You asked.

Like I said, Chuck: it's not one thing; it's everything.

Here's how I look at it: you've got a beautiful little girl with a vaginal opening stretched twice normal size with most of her hymen gone and areas of vaginal erosion that match where a right-handed person would likely stick their finger. This same girl was trained to obey adults and acted out in ways that may have been inappropriate for her age. She regressed in her toilet training in a severe fashion after seemingly being fully potty-trained. On top of all that, we've got 7-8 top-of-the-field experts saying, independently of each other, that this little girl was an abuse victim, at least in the physical sense.

Now tell me, Chuck: if you were in my position, what would you think?

 

[Tadpole12]

Heyya CM,

It's a difficult issue to determine, but if one accepts the birefringent material as being talcum powder and the 'cellulose' as being the filler in diaper cream, then the sexual assaults of JBR might be a 'ritual' taking place during diaper change.

 

[joeskidbeck]

It's exactly the training that bothers me, Chuck.

FWIW, I think she told the secret to exactly the wrong person, and that's WHY she ended up dead.



The same way all abusers introduce it. Most children don't even know it's wrong, especially if the person is a loved one.



If that's a joke, it's not funny.



Kids are very easy to control and manipulate, Chuck. That's why they make such good victims.



Probably the same way as she referred to herself as a "sexy little witch." Tell me that's appropriate for a kid.



You asked.

Like I said, Chuck: it's not one thing; it's everything.

Here's how I look at it: you've got a beautiful little girl with a vaginal opening stretched twice normal size with most of her hymen gone and areas of vaginal erosion that match where a right-handed person would likely stick their finger. This same girl was trained to obey adults and acted out in ways that may have been inappropriate for her age. She regressed in her toilet training in a severe fashion after seemingly being fully potty-trained. On top of all that, we've got 7-8 top-of-the-field experts saying, independently of each other, that this little girl was an abuse victim, at least in the physical sense.

Now tell me, Chuck: if you were in my position, what would you think?

Thanks, Dave. You provided a lot of the answers from my reply to Chuck's earlier post asking me about her behavorial issues. How many issues does it take before someone is supposed to start asking the appropriate questions of abused children? JonBenet exhibited more than just a few emotional as well as physical issues. How could a little girl as obviously beautiful as JB sit on the stairs and cry because she "doesn't feel pretty"? Did anyone bother to ask her why she didn't feel pretty? What about her reaction to the My Twinn doll her mother purchased for Christmas? That was an out and out slap in Patsy Ramsey's face. This little girl had probably told her mother about the abuse and her mother probably expressed doubt. That happens a lot and there are other posters here who will back me on that. I don't need a link to a doctor to know this. If the truth was really known, JonBenet probably hated the way she looked because of the abuse. Who knows how a six year old would come to conclusions about why things happen to them?
Earlier when I mentioned the amount of visits to the doctor, it was because my opinion is that Patsy was not going to believe JB was being molested until a dr. told her. The trouble with that is she didn't ask the doctor to examine her for abuse. Granted, the doctor should have been smart enough to bring it up anyway, but if he is (and he was) a family friend, he probably had a big problem with bringing it up. It was a terrible circle, for sure.
Please don't just accept my words, do like I have done, and read every single piece of information that you can find on this case and then see how you feel. This taking one piece of evidence at a time is all well and good, but when you see the puzzle with all the pieces in place, you will know exactly why I feel the way I do.

 

[DeeDee249]

JB has BLOOD in her vagina, bruising too. Dance movements, gymnastics and tight clothing did NOT cause THAT, in addition- those injuries were from that day. Are you suggesting JB went to a dance contest or gymnastics meet after leaving the White's that night (while asleep, of course, as her parents said she was).
It astounds me that people will consider anything to avoid considering the one thing they should- this little girl was being sexually abused. Whether she was abused many times before or just that day/night, her injuries were not caused by bubble baths, tight clothing, dancing or gymnastics. And this is true for IDI as well as RDI.
Many young woman who are virgins will not have an intact hymen, true. This is caused by factors such as you mentioned, as well as tampon use. But JB was SIX years old, not an equestrienne, not a gymnast and did not menstruate. Her injuries were sexual assault-related.
If I found a dead little girl in a basement and her autopsy revealed the injuries JB had, I would not be thinking "Oh, she must be a gymnast or dancer".

 

[Toltec]

I read something last night that bothered me...Nedra's statement regarding JonBenet "dirtying" herself.

She (Nedra) revealed a bit more about JonBenet messing her pants and bed, a subject she had minimized in out previous interview. Now, however, she said that the child did not wipe properly after a bowel movement, and quite often an adult would have to wash her bottom and change her undies. ITRMI by Steve Thomas ppb pg 154-5.