Procedure and legal questions

[Wudge]

Good info to know, Wudge! Thanks! So, if JB can successfully get a COV and be heard by a different judge, he may want to opt for a bench trial. If he did this, would it make the Nanny story more easily usable by the defense? I mean, would it be easier to use it for a judge in a bench trial than try to sell it to a jury in a jury trial? TIA!

I don't know what the defense will do with the Nanny story. Moreover, we simply do not know how they intend to defend Casey. It would not surprise me to see Casey's attorneys opt for a defense other than what many people expect.

What I will say is that if I had a COV and a neutral judge seated at the bench in this case, I would ask for a bench trial (prosecutors may not approve a bench trial) and request the judge to read to the courtroom a finding of facts along with their verdict. For I have long maintained that the reliability of evidence necessary to support a "premeditated" murder is very low to non-existent in this case.

My experience is that a neutral (and even a pro-prosecution judge) trial judge will measure the reliability of required evidence far more astutely than jurors who are caught in the floodlights of a high-profile case.

Moreover, if sufficiency of evidence is likely to be an appeal issue, judges often document (or otherwise reveal) their deliberations more clearly than a jury -- jury deliberations (how a jury decides a case) often remain a total mystery. On appeal, I would want to know as much as possible.

 

[Wudge]

Thanks Wudge, I was trying to come up with a possible scenario that would explain missing information. I guess both sides try this maneuver on occasion ?

Far and away, a charge of withholding evidence is largely leveled against LE and/or prosecutors. Up until a few years ago, North Carolina's Attorney General had an actual state policy that, in spite of three Supreme Court rulings, supported prosecutors withholding exculpatory evidence from the defense (I kid you not, it was state policy). The D.A. in the Duke lacrosse rape case, Mike Nifong, was neither an exception nor an accident. He was a well known, well developed and well accepted breed.

 

[KenoshaKid]

I just looked in the bag of information and skills I've collected over several decades (both federal and state) and posted what I understand. I didn't do any specific research on this one. If you have some more information, please feel free to throw it out there. :blowkiss: I'm always willing to learn.

No, nothing specific. Just remembering the stories my hubby told about listening in to drug dealers on wiretap and having to listen to hours of boring minutiae before they got to the good stuff. I don't think they were required to hang up when they were talking about laundry vs coke. :crazy: Thats why I thought maybe fed laws were different than state or county.

 

[AZlawyer]

Despite mutiple Supreme Court rulings, exculpatory or exonerating evidence is still frequently withheld from the defense (let's play: hide the football). When they are caught, prosecutors will usually claim that what was not turned over to the defense is not really exculpatory or exonerating evidence. I think its fair to say that it's not a prosecutor's call to determine what evidence is exculpatory or exonerating evidence.

Make prosecutors criminally liable for withholding evidence, and such happenings would be dramatically reduced.

Well, let's not assume that what TL told law enforcement officers about KC's statements during their 2-hour conversation on July 16 was exculpatory. It's perfectly possible--and indeed likely--that her statements that day were just more obvious (and therefore inculpatory) lies about squirrels and nannies and beaches and Universal Studios and pigs eating pizza in the trunk.

 

[Wudge]

Well, let's not assume that what TL told law enforcement officers about KC's statements during their 2-hour conversation on July 16 was exculpatory.

SNIP

Correct. I did not so assume nor mean to imply.

My post was in reference to the existence of but a well recognized problem; i.e., the malacious withholding of exculpatory evidence by LE and/or prosecutors, which takes place across the nation.

 

[Searchfortruth]

Well, let's not assume that what TL told law enforcement officers about KC's statements during their 2-hour conversation on July 16 was exculpatory. It's perfectly possible--and indeed likely--that her statements that day were just more obvious (and therefore inculpatory) lies about squirrels and nannies and beaches and Universal Studios and pigs eating pizza in the trunk.

If I had to make a bet it would be that any additional interview material, related to Tony's conversation on the 16th, ends up on the inculpatory side, but that's just a guess.

I believe even JB ended up in trouble, during his last trial, when he waited until the last minute to bring in evidence that may have helped his client out..the judge ruled that it was inadmissable because he waited too long to present this evidence.

 

[DotsEyes]

Wudge,

KC was charged, by indictment, with First Degree Murder without specifying a subsection classification. Subsections 1,2 or 3 are all capital offenses. Only subsection 1 contains the requisite element of premeditation. Subsections 2 and 3 do not. Therefore, the DA is not limited to proving premeditation to get a DP. Subsection 2 specifies things such as death resulting from aggravated child abuse and requires no premeditation.

She was also charged, by indictment, with Agg. child abuse, Agg. Manslaughter of a child and 2 counts of obstruction by lies to LE all on the same indictment. August 8.

They seem to have covered all bases here. What is all this about "felony" murder? Of course she was charged with a felony murder.

Where is the charge where it specifies "premeditated" murder under subsection 1? I can't find it. Anyone?

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

Therefore, the DA is not limited to proving premeditation to get a DP.

She was also charged, by indictment, with Agg. child abuse, Agg. Manslaughter of a child and 2 counts of obstruction by lies to LE all on the same indictment. August 8.

They seem to have covered all bases here. What is all this about "felony" murder? Of course she was charged with a felony - FDM!

The legal community understands that when a person is said to have been charged with committing a premeditated murder (numerous elements must be proved), the reference is to a charge of murder one.

A charge of murder one equates to a wilfull (intended), premeditated (planned) and deliberated (considered) killing that was commited with malice aforethought -- not all willful, premeditated and deliberated killings are done with malice aforethought.

As an additional reference, a charge of murder two simply requires that malice aforethought be proved.

Casey has not been charged with felony murder.

 

[DotsEyes]

The legal community understands that when a person is said to have been charged with committing a premeditated murder (numerous elements must be proved), the reference is to a charge of murder one.

A charge of murder one equates to a wilfull (intended), premeditated (planned) and deliberated (considered) killing that was commited with malice aforethought -- not all willful, premeditated and deliberated killings are done with malice aforethought.

As an additional reference, a charge of murder two simply requires that malice aforethought be proved.

Casey has not been charged with felony murder.

Well, according the FL statutes, there are 3 classification for capital murder and we don't know which one applies to Miss KC's case and since 2 of the 3 murders of the first degree do not require premeditation I am not seeing what your "felony" distinction here. Is there a seperate "felony" murder statute in FL? I didn't see it, do you have a link?

In pari materia. :bang:

 

[Wudge]

Well, according the FL statutes, there are 3 classification for capital murder and we don't know which one applies to Miss KC's case and since 2 of the 3 murders of the first degree do not require premeditation I am not seeing what your "felony" distinction here. Is there a seperate "felony" murder statute in FL? I didn't see it, do you have a link?

In pari materia. :bang:

I won't attempt to unravel how you are interpreting Florida's murder statutes (dial 782.04 for murder). That statute also covers murder two, and murder two does not include premeditation. Keeping things simple, no state attaches the death penalty to a charge of murder two.

My old files are on another computer, but, from prior research, I recall Florida's felony murder statute to be 782.04 (3).

 

[ClockWatcher]

Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 001
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 782.04(1)(A)(1) - FIRST DEGREE MURDER
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: FELONY Charge Degree: CAPITAL
Phase: Prosecutorial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 001
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 782.04(1)(A)(1) - FIRST DEGREE MURDER
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: FELONY Charge Degree: CAPITAL
Result: FILED/NOT DISPOSED AT PROSECUTORS LEVEL Result Date: 10/14/2008



Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 002
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 827.03(2) - AGGRAVATED CHILD ABUSE
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: FELONY Charge Degree: SECOND DEGREE
Phase: Prosecutorial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 002
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 827.03(2) - AGGRAVATED CHILD ABUSE
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: FELONY Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Result: FILED/NOT DISPOSED AT PROSECUTORS LEVEL Result Date: 10/14/2008


Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 003
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 782.07(3) - AGGRAVATED MANSLAUGHTER OF A CHILD
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: FELONY Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Phase: Prosecutorial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 003
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 782.07(3) - AGGRAVATED MANSLAUGHTER OF A CHILD
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: FELONY Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Result: FILED/NOT DISPOSED AT PROSECUTORS LEVEL Result Date: 10/14/2008


Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 004
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Phase: Prosecutorial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 004
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Result: FILED/NOT DISPOSED AT PROSECUTORS LEVEL Result Date: 10/14/2008


Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 005
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Phase: Prosecutorial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 005
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Result: FILED/NOT DISPOSED AT PROSECUTORS LEVEL Result Date: 10/14/2008


Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 006
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Phase: Prosecutorial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 006
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Result: FILED/NOT DISPOSED AT PROSECUTORS LEVEL Result Date: 10/14/2008


Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 007
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Phase: Prosecutorial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 007
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 837.055 - FALSE INFO TO LEO RE MISSING PERSON OR FELONY
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: MISDEMEANOR Charge Degree: FIRST DEGREE
Result: FILED/NOT DISPOSED AT PROSECUTORS LEVEL Result Date: 10/14/2008

 

[ClockWatcher]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM



The 2008 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 782
HOMICIDE

View Entire Chapter

782.04 Murder.--

(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:

a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

b. Arson,

c. Sexual battery,

d. Robbery,

e. Burglary,

f. Kidnapping,

g. Escape,

h. Aggravated child abuse,

i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

j. Aircraft piracy,

k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

l. Carjacking,

m. Home-invasion robbery,

n. Aggravated stalking,

o. Murder of another human being,

p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,

q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.

(b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:

(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

(b) Arson,

(c) Sexual battery,

(d) Robbery,

(e) Burglary,

(f) Kidnapping,

(g) Escape,

(h) Aggravated child abuse,

(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

(j) Aircraft piracy,

(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

(l) Carjacking,

(m) Home-invasion robbery,

(n) Aggravated stalking,

(o) Murder of another human being,

(p) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or

(q) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,

by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(4) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated without any design to effect death, by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any felony other than any:

(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

(b) Arson,

(c) Sexual battery,

(d) Robbery,

(e) Burglary,

(f) Kidnapping,

(g) Escape,

(h) Aggravated child abuse,

(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

(j) Aircraft piracy,

(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

(l) Unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

(m) Carjacking,

(n) Home-invasion robbery,

(o) Aggravated stalking,

(p) Murder of another human being,

(q) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or

(r) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,

is murder in the third degree and constitutes a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(5) As used in this section, the term "terrorism" means an activity that:

(a)1. Involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life which is a violation of the criminal laws of this state or of the United States; or

2. Involves a violation of s. 815.06; and

(b) Is intended to:

1. Intimidate, injure, or coerce a civilian population;

2. Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

3. Affect the conduct of government through destruction of property, assassination, murder, kidnapping, or aircraft piracy.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Phase: Initial
Defendant: CASEY MARIE ANTHONY Count #: 001
Offense Date: 6/15/2008 Citation #:
Complaint Date: Information Date: 10/14/2008
Statute: 782.04(1)(A)(1) - FIRST DEGREE MURDER
General Offense Category:
Charge Level: FELONY Charge Degree: CAPITAL

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM



The 2008 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 782
HOMICIDE

View Entire Chapter

782.04 Murder.--

(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

respectfully snipped


So, if I understand what you posted correctly, KC is being charged with first degree murder under Florida statute: 782.04(1)(A)(1) which is murder with premeditation. I don't think the prosecution will have any problem proving this. Could they also say she qualifies due to statute 782.04(1)(A)(2) during trial or would that have to be specifically listed beforehand?

 

[ClockWatcher]

I just thought I'd put them up here for all to read.

I'm NOT an attorney, so I can't really answer your question Dear Prudence. It's part of the statute, so it can be used, is how I interpret that part.

 

[Wudge]

respectfully snipped


SNIP

Could they also say she qualifies due to statute 782.04(1)(A)(2) during trial or would that have to be specifically listed beforehand?

If prosecutors made such a request after the trial started, they would tell the Judge their request is based on:

a) We're morons and don't know what we're doing, humor us.

b) We now realize that we can't prove premeditation, so we want to try something else.

(Under any circumstance, the defense would, at the very least, proclaim: 6th and 14th Amendment violations, prejudice, double jeopardy -- mistrial would be an absolute minimum)

 

[AZlawyer]

After looking at the list of charges, and going back and reading the original indictment, I think it is clear that Casey was NOT charged with felony murder, only with premeditated murder. She was also charged with a felony that could certainly form the BASIS for a charge of felony murder, but the State would have to move to amend to bring the felony murder charge if they want to argue it at trial. Felony murder is not a "lesser included" charge of anything Casey was actually charged with--it is a separate charge requiring a different defense strategy, and the judge will make absolutely sure that the defense is given sufficient opportunity to prepare for that charge if he decides to allow an amendment.

 

[butwhatif?]

Does the US have unfair dismissal laws, to protect employees from being fired for no good reason?
Am just wondering if ZG could file a civil suit against her employer for getting rid of her when the news of the invisi-nanny came out in the media.
TIA

 

[AZlawyer]

Does the US have unfair dismissal laws, to protect employees from being fired for no good reason?
Am just wondering if ZG could file a civil suit against her employer for getting rid of her when the news of the invisi-nanny came out in the media.
TIA

All the states have different sets of laws...and there are federal laws as well...and the employee in question might have a contract...or be protected by a union agreement that says differently... BUT for most employees in most states in most employment situations I would not think there would be any claim for wrongful termination under such circumstances.

Besides, I'm not even sure ZG had a job at the time. Is she alleging that she lost her job, or just that no one will hire her because they don't want to get mixed up with an accused kidnapper?

 

[butwhatif?]

All the states have different sets of laws...and there are federal laws as well...and the employee in question might have a contract...or be protected by a union agreement that says differently... BUT for most employees in most states in most employment situations I would not think there would be any claim for wrongful termination under such circumstances.

Besides, I'm not even sure ZG had a job at the time. Is she alleging that she lost her job, or just that no one will hire her because they don't want to get mixed up with an accused kidnapper?

She says she was fired from her job, and kicked out of the place she was living in because people associated her name with the kidnapper. It was a house cleaning job IIRC.
I also have another zg question. Will she have to answer questions posed by JB in the civil suit?

 

[AZlawyer]

She says she was fired from her job, and kicked out of the place she was living in because people associated her name with the kidnapper. It was a house cleaning job IIRC.
I also have another zg question. Will she have to answer questions posed by JB in the civil suit?

Yes, ZG will almost certainly be deposed. But I don't think JB is involved in the civil suit. I can't remember the name of KC's civil attorney.