Quesions for RDI about Burke's role

[BBB167893]

While what you say is possible, wouldn't PR be even more pissed off at JR? I'm not PR but if JB told me she and daddy were having sex, I wouldn't bash her skull, it'd be JR I'd want to strangle.

That's easy to say, voynich. (And keep in mind that I have great respect for your feelings about this case.) But, sadly, many, many times, mothers tend to blame the victims. Don't take my word for that, either. I could cite any number of cases, but the one that best illustrates this tragic phenomenon is that of Marilyn Van Derbur. She's a former Miss America who grew up in the Denver area. Perfect family on the outside. Father was a successful pillar of the community. But secretly he was molesting Marilyn. When Marilyn got up the courage to tell her mother, her mother blamed HER and punished her for telling such "lies."

How do you rule out sexual abuse by BR or unknown?

I DON'T, as I've said before. I just go with my gut. You asked me for my opinion and I gave it to you.

Given BR's bedroom proximity to JB how could he not have heard PR JR arguing?

Voynich, when I was a kid, I slept so heavily I would not have heard a bomb blast right next to me. But, for the sake of argument, let's say he did. How many of us got out of bed when we heard our parents arguing? Not me, I can tell you. Incidentally, that may go to what you said about BR not spilling the beans and killing him. Maybe he thought "if I talk, they'll kill me too." Just spitballing.

-- I posted about the Meredith Kercher murder here at WS on another forum and sadly I got no replies. I know, boo-hoo, but this murder alleged by Foxy Knoxy has enough lurid details to make any hetero young male like me fascinated with this case -- it involves two women bisexuals and a bf, in a threesome and sex games leading to death. I've not heard of any murder quite like this.

Oy!

 

[voynich]

That's easy to say, voynich. (And keep in mind that I have great respect for your feelings about this case.) But, sadly, many, many times, mothers tend to blame the victims. Don't take my word for that, either. I could cite any number of cases, but the one that best illustrates this tragic phenomenon is that of Marilyn Van Derbur. She's a former Miss America who grew up in the Denver area. Perfect family on the outside. Father was a successful pillar of the community. But secretly he was molesting Marilyn. When Marilyn got up the courage to tell her mother, her mother blamed HER and punished her for telling such "lies."



I DON'T, as I've said before. I just go with my gut. You asked me for my opinion and I gave it to you.



Voynich, when I was a kid, I slept so heavily I would not have heard a bomb blast right next to me. But, for the sake of argument, let's say he did. How many of us got out of bed when we heard our parents arguing? Not me, I can tell you. Incidentally, that may go to what you said about BR not spilling the beans and killing him. Maybe he thought "if I talk, they'll kill me too." Just spitballing.



Oy!

You know I've never ever heard of Marilyn Van Derbur prior to you mentioning it.

Why not suggest PR was sexually abusing JB and when she refused PR snapped?

Someone replied Foxy can be found here
[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55843"]British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[voynich]

That's easy to say, voynich. (And keep in mind that I have great respect for your feelings about this case.) But, sadly, many, many times, mothers tend to blame the victims. Don't take my word for that, either. I could cite any number of cases, but the one that best illustrates this tragic phenomenon is that of Marilyn Van Derbur. She's a former Miss America who grew up in the Denver area. Perfect family on the outside. Father was a successful pillar of the community. But secretly he was molesting Marilyn. When Marilyn got up the courage to tell her mother, her mother blamed HER and punished her for telling such "lies."


Oy!

If that's what happened then that's what happened. The ZK after all, dressed up as a medieval executioner and sent ciphers.

There's quite a difference between a mother blaming her daughter v.s killing her daughter. One might as well speculate PR was sexually abusing JB and on that night she rejected PR's advances, or perhaps PR was in an adulterous relationship with X, and X abused and killed JB and PR covered for him.

Post-crime behavior and fiber evidence is suspicious IMHO.

 

[BBB167893]

You know I've never ever heard of Marilyn Van Derbur prior to you mentioning it.

That's not surprising. She has a book out: Miss America by Day if you're interested.

Why not suggest PR was sexually abusing JB and when she refused PR snapped?

I've not totally ruled THAT out, either. Richard Krugman suggested something similar.

Someone replied Foxy can be found here
British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Ah, now we're cooking.

If that's what happened then that's what happened.

Right...IF that's what happened.

The ZK after all, dressed up as a medieval executioner and sent ciphers.

I assume ZK stands for Zodiac Killer. Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with that one.

There's quite a difference between a mother blaming her daughter v.s killing her daughter.

True, but that assumes PR MEANT to kill her. But, as Nedra said, JB was a fighter.

One might as well speculate PR was sexually abusing JB and on that night she rejected PR's advances, or perhaps PR was in an adulterous relationship with X, and X abused and killed JB and PR covered for him.

One thing at a time, please. First of all, if there is a hidden implication in there, it's very embarrassing to me. One could get the feeling that I'm just willy-nilly tossing stuff out. I can assure you that my conclusions have been formed after years of consideration. Let's just get that right out there.

Okay, second: It has been speculated that PR had a "boyfriend." One of her interviews mentions a man named Raoul, and how JR wasn't too pleased about PR spending time with him.

Post-crime behavior and fiber evidence is suspicious IMHO.

Mm. An infinite mystery, is the case.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm happy to learn that most posting here are RDI's. I still need/want to seek out total like-minded folks. I don't buy into JR dictacting the RN. I give PR full credit. I believe head-blow followed by garrote. I've NEVER bought into sexual abuse by Daddy or younger brother.

(I've wondered about older step-brother DESPITE his air-tight alibi. Want to learn more. Hidden suspect or possible set-up by PR?...)

I believe younger brother BR maybe have witnessed some things and may come forward in the future with his truths.

I agree. I have ALWAYS been suspicious of stepbrother JAR. If BR had witnessed anything, that would also explain the Grand Jury failing to issue an indictment. And also explain the way the DA refused to prosecute this case. In Colorado, by law, no child under 10 can be accused, arrested, or indicted for a crime, no matter what the crime was. And if the crime was committed by an adult or someone over 10, THEY can't be prosecuted either if the child under 10 was a part of it.
I have never though BR did this alone. If that was truly the case, it had to be an accident, with him bashing her head, but not intending to kill her. I can see his parents covering up for him to protect him from the trauma of this being made public. It stretches my limits, but I have to at least consider this.
We often wonder here when and if the day will come when BR speaks about that night. I personally do not think he ever will. Someone here said (forgive me, I don't recall who it was) "There will be no hero in this case". Good way of putting it.

 

[voynich]

That's not surprising. She has a book out: Miss America by Day if you're interested.



I've not totally ruled THAT out, either. Richard Krugman suggested something similar.



Ah, now we're cooking.



Right...IF that's what happened.



I assume ZK stands for Zodiac Killer. Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with that one.



True, but that assumes PR MEANT to kill her. But, as Nedra said, JB was a fighter.



One thing at a time, please. First of all, if there is a hidden implication in there, it's very embarrassing to me. One could get the feeling that I'm just willy-nilly tossing stuff out. I can assure you that my conclusions have been formed after years of consideration. Let's just get that right out there.

Okay, second: It has been speculated that PR had a "boyfriend." One of her interviews mentions a man named Raoul, and how JR wasn't too pleased about PR spending time with him.



Mm. An infinite mystery, is the case.

Hi,
sorry about that hidden implication--obviously no insult intended.
My point is this: "Mom, Daddy and I have been playing doctor." PR "WTF? Wack!" skull cracks. This is what could have happened but then, maybe BDI or unknown PR boyfriend-X. If anything, it seems that B might have wacked his sister while playing around as kids do play around and B has hit his sister with a golf club which required medical attention.

ZK = as in "killing is so much fun, man is the most dangerous animal" ZK and Jonbenet are on a list of top 10 unsolved murder mysteries.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi,
sorry about that hidden implication--obviously no insult intended.

No problem.

My point is this: "Mom, Daddy and I have been playing doctor." PR "WTF? Wack!" skull cracks.

Something like that.

This is what could have happened but then, maybe BDI or unknown PR boyfriend-X. If anything, it seems that B might have wacked his sister while playing around as kids do play around and B has hit his sister with a golf club which required medical attention.

Well, that did happen one time.

ZK = as in "killing is so much fun, man is the most dangerous animal" ZK and Jonbenet are on a list of top 10 unsolved murder mysteries.

I noticed.

 

[voynich]

No problem.

Something like that.

Well, that did happen one time.

I noticed.

If that's what actually happened then I'm rendered speechless.

 

[SeekingJana]

I've been a strong RDI since early 1997.
I have always thought that Burke can be heard on the 911 tape asking " What did you find?" and JR telling him that it didn't involve Burke, etc.

I believe Burke overheard things after JBR's murder, probably couldn't help but pick up on things going on in the family.

I have gone back and looked at his behavior as it is documented at the time JBR was murdered, and IMO, he was a normal, if somewhat immature 9 year old boy. I do not think he killed his sister, either accidentally or intentionally.

I think he probably has knowledge related to his parents' behaviors and I hope that one day he speaks out. IMO, he is a secondary victim of the crime because his childhood was changed in very personal ways.

Maria

 

[DeeDee249]

If that's what actually happened then I'm rendered speechless.

BR DID hit his sister with a golf club, and she was taken for stitches. No serious harm done. If you mean the "playing doctor" bit, housekeeper LHP said that on at least one occasion she walked into BR's room and found them under a blanket- she suspected "playing doctor" and BR yelled at her to get out of his room. I don't know what further action was taken, or whether she told Patsy what the kids might have been doing. It is not an uncommon thing between opposite-sex siblings, but certainly something a parent would want to keep in check. Who knows what PR did about it, if anything.

 

[voynich]

BR DID hit his sister with a golf club, and she was taken for stitches. No serious harm done. If you mean the "playing doctor" bit, housekeeper LHP said that on at least one occasion she walked into BR's room and found them under a blanket- she suspected "playing doctor" and BR yelled at her to get out of his room. I don't know what further action was taken, or whether she told Patsy what the kids might have been doing. It is not an uncommon thing between opposite-sex siblings, but certainly something a parent would want to keep in check. Who knows what PR did about it, if anything.

So hypothetically speaking the "chronic inflammation" and "eroded hymen" could be attributed to this. I don't have any sisters so I would not know.

 

[DeeDee249]

So hypothetically speaking the "chronic inflammation" and "eroded hymen" could be attributed to this. I don't have any sisters so I would not know.

Depends. I hate to be graphic here, but a child's fingers are not as long as an adult's, but then again the anatomy of a 6-year old girl is not the same as an adult's either. The vagina is shorter. There was digital penetration by SOMEONE. While boys of that age may not explore to that extent, it has to be considered.

 

[voynich]

Depends. I hate to be graphic here, but a child's fingers are not as long as an adult's, but then again the anatomy of a 6-year old girl is not the same as an adult's either. The vagina is shorter. There was digital penetration by SOMEONE. While boys of that age may not explore to that extent, it has to be considered.

What about girls self-penetration? Can THAT be excluded?

 

[DeeDee249]

What about girls self-penetration? Can THAT be excluded?

Yes.
Her little fingers would not have reached to the hymen. And not to be graphic again, but masturbation in a 6-year old girl, while not unheard of, would not involve penetration, but more rubbing of the external parts of the vulva. You are looking at this from an adult perspective. Penetration would simply not be pleasurable to a child. The physical and hormonal response linked to pleasure with penetration is not there in such a young girl. Masturbation in a very young girl is nearly ALWAYS an indication of sexual abuse. Not so with very young boys, who can discover those pleasurable sensations accidentally. Sorry to offend anyone, but I have seen toddler boys "touching" themselves. They don't know what they are doing, they do not associate it with sex, but they know it feels good.

 

[voynich]

Yes.
Her little fingers would not have reached to the hymen. And not to be graphic again, but masturbation in a 6-year old girl, while not unheard of, would not involve penetration, but more rubbing of the external parts of the vulva. You are looking at this from an adult perspective. Penetration would simply not be pleasurable to a child. The physical and hormonal response linked to pleasure with penetration is not there in such a young girl. Masturbation in a very young girl is nearly ALWAYS an indication of sexual abuse. Not so with very young boys, who can discover those pleasurable sensations accidentally. Sorry to offend anyone, but I have seen toddler boys "touching" themselves. They don't know what they are doing, they do not associate it with sex, but they know it feels good.

I'll take your word.

 

[voynich]

Shall we put that to a vote?

t.

They know your power will be too strong to control. Allow me to help you break through the fog of lies the Ramseys have created.

 

[Ripley007]

I can't believe I never thought this thought before...a head wound...severe bleeding...it's common knowledge that a head wound often appears worse than it really is due to excessive bleeding.

Was luminol ever used in JB's bathroom. (If PR cleaned up blood, it would still show up under luminol, right?)

It's always been my own personal theory that PR snapped, JBR received a head wound, PR thought the wound was either severe enough to cause brain damage, and she would prefer a dead child to a brain-damaged one, OR she thought the wound was minor and due to her sleep deprivation, her thoughts weren't rational and all she could think of was "JB is going to TELL ON ME" and she couldn't face this. JMHO!

 

[Ravyn]

I asked the same question but the only sign of blood was in her ear, nose, and mouth if I remember right..However she got the headwound didn't break the skin and the bleeding was on the inside of the brain.

 

[Ripley007]

What's your own personal opinion Ravyn? (PS-cat fancier here-I love your avatar!)

Head-wound first or strangulation first?

 

[Ravyn]

I believe the head wound cause there was no evidence under JB fingernails that she fought the stangulation even if someone told her not to move if you were being strangled you would fight against it And thank you about my avatar..