Quesions for RDI about Burke's role

[Ravyn]

Where I live I became a foster mom cause people will dump them out and they find their way to my house so I keep them and one time I had 36 all together but found good homes for them...

 

[Ripley007]

Where I live I became a foster mom cause people will dump them out and they find their way to my house so I keep them and one time I had 36 all together but found good homes for them...

As a CAT Lover, may I say, God Bless You and your generosity!:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

 

[voynich]

As a CAT Lover, may I say, God Bless You and your generosity!:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

i like cats to

 

[Mysteeri]

Ok, I`m now thinking about the possibility of Burke being the cause of signs of prior sexual abuse and killing her sister (accidentally or not), and John and Patsy covering up for him and making sure he doesn`t say anything or remember anything about that night, that he just slept. I have to think about this option too. I want to know, on what basis is Burke excluded as the possible abuser and killer of JB? Didn`t JB sometimes sleep in Burkes room?


Burke seemed to have been described as a quiet child who played a lot with his Nintendo. An interview done with Burke on january 8th, 1997 by Suzanne Bernard, a spezialist in child psychology, describes some peculiar features. He seemed to be distant from his parents and also JB and showed little emotion, had difficulty in opening up. I thought that this implies he was hiding something and that his relationship with especially his father (according to the interview) was not very close, and thought that this supports JR/PR did it. Burke told the doctor that he felt safe with her, which according to the doctor is unusual: "Generally speaking, a child who goes through this kind of trauma, where a sibling or a family member has been killed, they don`t feel safe". I got to thinking, if the parents killed JB, would he feel safe? If John was away a lot and distant, and Patsy paid more attention to JB, could he be jealous? Ok, I know that doesn`t make a murderer, I`m just speculating here..

 

[voynich]

Ok, I`m now thinking about the possibility of Burke being the cause of signs of prior sexual abuse and killing her sister (accidentally or not), and John and Patsy covering up for him and making sure he doesn`t say anything or remember anything about that night, that he just slept. I have to think about this option too. I want to know, on what basis is Burke excluded as the possible abuser and killer of JB? Didn`t JB sometimes sleep in Burkes room?


Burke seemed to have been described as a quiet child who played a lot with his Nintendo. An interview done with Burke on january 8th, 1997 by Suzanne Bernard, a spezialist in child psychology, describes some peculiar features. He seemed to be distant from his parents and also JB and showed little emotion, had difficulty in opening up. I thought that this implies he was hiding something and that his relationship with especially his father (according to the interview) was not very close, and thought that this supports JR/PR did it. Burke told the doctor that he felt safe with her, which according to the doctor is unusual: "Generally speaking, a child who goes through this kind of trauma, where a sibling or a family member has been killed, they don`t feel safe". I got to thinking, if the parents killed JB, would he feel safe? If John was away a lot and distant, and Patsy paid more attention to JB, could he be jealous? Ok, I know that doesn`t make a murderer, I`m just speculating here..

Of the RDI theories, I've told SithDave that I think BDI is most plausible. I've also wondered if BR may have written the RN (any exemplars of his handwriting/linguistic style?)

BR did strike JB w/a golf club which required medical attention. He could have struck JB w/a flash light and garrote her in some sexual game he read about on the web and wrote the RN and staged the CSI.

 

[Ravyn]

Now the IDI's are RDI's if BR done it...I'm guessing about the web the LE checked the hard drive cause they was in fact looking for certain stuff...And on Dec 28,1996 the LE got handwritting samples from BR and this is from the R's book..Getting wraped up into video games to hide from the truth of what happen that night not so hard to see if both parents were in on it....The crime scene well BR don't look like he could carry JB cause you have to think after she died she would began dead weight..

 

[Mysteeri]

Of the RDI theories, I've told SithDave that I think BDI is most plausible. I've also wondered if BR may have written the RN (any exemplars of his handwriting/linguistic style?)

BR did strike JB w/a golf club which required medical attention. He could have struck JB w/a flash light and garrote her in some sexual game he read about on the web and wrote the RN and staged the CSI.

To me the RN seems to be written by an adult and it`s difficult to imagine he would do everything on his own. It wouldn`t hurt to see Burkes handwriting, though.

Some people think that JB was hit with Johns golf club? What`s the deal with Johns golf bag? I believe the flashlight is the most probable weapon because of tests done: "The forensic lab did testing with an identical flashlight by smashing it into peaces of Styrofoam. The impressions left in the Styrofoam by striking it with the head of the flashlight were identical to the fracture found during the autopsy. --some of them (golf clubs in R`s basement) were found to have certain consistensies with the area of injury, but none matched as closely as the test results from the flashlight." (Bonita Papers)

Another interesting part from the interview I wrote about in my previous post:
"When asked to draw a picture of his family, he drew a father figure who was distanced from Burke, a mother figure which was the smallest figure in the picture, and JonBenet was not in the picture at all. Dr. Bernhard interpreted the drawing to suggest that Burke felt his father was not emotionally available to him and that his mother was insignificant and did not have a great deal of power. Dr. Bernhard thought it extremely abnormal that JonBenet was not in the family picture at all, since her heath had occurred only 13 days prior. Most children continue to include deceased siblings in family drawings years after the death because it is too devastating for them to think about the loss. Burke also told Dr. Bernhard that he was “getting on with his life.”, another very abnormal reaction for a child who had so recently lost his sibling." (Bonita papers)

There seems to be some detachment from his family, whatever the reason is.

I hope I won`t offend anyone by asking this, but I was wondering if Burke or JB had some kind of toy that could produce the double marks on JB, the ones thought to be from a stun gun? Dr. McCann thought that the trauma in JB`s vagina is likely caused by a fairly small and firm object, not necessarily a finger. I was wondering if the marks on JB could come from the same object, legs of a toy or something.

 

[Ravyn]

well if I'm not mistaken the oject in question was the paintbrush handle cause I do believe they found a wood shard in her vagina..

 

[Mysteeri]

well if I'm not mistaken the oject in question was the paintbrush handle cause I do believe they found a wood shard in her vagina..

I remember something like that too, but I`m not sure if it was concluded that it was the paintbrush or only the paintbrush used in the penetration. Also the signs of prior sexual abuse could have been (to my understanding) caused by a fairly narrow, firm object.

 

[Ravyn]

Well in this case you have Dr.Lee and Cycil Wecht saying there are indeed signs of prior sexual abuse and I would think if it happen that night these signs wouldn't be there..Cause I read in PR interview that JB and BR had bedwetting problems and also JR"s daughter Melinda til she was about 8 years old so honestly I find something odd that 3 of R's kids had problems wetting the bed...

 

[madeleine]

Well in this case you have Dr.Lee and Cycil Wecht saying there are indeed signs of prior sexual abuse and I would think if it happen that night these signs wouldn't be there..Cause I read in PR interview that JB and BR had bedwetting problems and also JR"s daughter Melinda til she was about 8 years old so honestly I find something odd that 3 of R's kids had problems wetting the bed...

Not only Lee and Wecht.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Evidence-of-Prior-Sexual-Abuse

Expert Opinion. Cyril Wecht, along with 4 other doctors concurred that the injury to hymen "dated from an old injury," including Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of CO Health Sciences Center; Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital); Dr. John McCann (see below); and Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois (Schiller 1999:437 according to Internet poster The Punisher). Forensic pathologist Robert Kirschner also said that the injuries to JonBenet were consistent with long-term sexual abuse. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida said she believed JonBenet had been sexually abused over time (Bonita Papers).



From B.papers:

Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but He had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation.


-------------

You know that saying.....if there are already two people claiming you're drunk,you should go to bed.
How many more experts do IDI's need?

 

[Mysteeri]

I`ve also read that Burke had bedwetting problems at some point, I have not yet read about Melindas problem.

I quickly googled if bedwetting can be genetic, and found that it can, if it`s primary nocturnal enuresis. I wonder if John had a bedwetting problem as a child.

"Contrary to popular opinion, bed-wetting is a very common problem. It affects somewhere between five and six million children. Unfortunately, most of those kids and their parents feel that something must be emotionally wrong; that they must be suffering from low self-esteem, trauma, or stress in their lives. The great news is that, in the vast majority of cases, this is not true! Bed-wetting, or nocturnal enuresis, can be divided into two types: primary nocturnal enuresis and secondary nocturnal enuresis. These two types are very different in their causes and treatments.

In primary nocturnal enuresis, children have never achieved complete nighttime control - always wetting at least two times a month. Secondary nocturnal enuretics are completely dry at night for a period of at least six months and then begin wetting again.

In secondary enuresis, the key is finding out exactly what has changed. There might be a new psychological stress such as a divorce, a move, or a death in the family. It might be something physical: the onset of a urinary tract infection or diabetes, for example. It might be a situational change - perhaps altered eating, drinking, or sleeping habits. Clearly, something has changed. The first step in solving the problem is identifying that something.

The great majority of bed-wetting children are primary enuretics. For primary enuretics, the cause is decidedly NOT stress or behavioral concerns. Research has shown that primary nocturnal enuresis is often inherited. If both parents were bed-wetters, 77% of their children will be. If only one parent was, 44% of their offspring will be. If neither parent wet the bed, only about 15% of their children will wet the bed. With primary nocturnal enuresis one almost always finds another relative who was a bed wetter. This corresponds to what is called an autosomal dominant inheritance pattern.

In recent years, researchers have identified an association with bedwetting and two genes named ENUR1 and ENUR2. The ENUR1 gene is located on the 13th chromosome while ENUR2 is found on chromosome 12. In studying certain families with primary nocturnal enuresis, researchers discovered that members who wet the bed were more likely to have the ENUR1 or ENUR2 gene than those who did not. More recently, the possibility of a third primary nocturnal enuresis-related gene (ENUR3) on chromosome 22 has also been uncovered. Presumably these genes affect either whether children will need to urinate at night or how easily they can wake up when their bladders are full.

Alan Greene MD FAAP"

http://www.drgreene.com/21_585.html

I wonder, what type of bedwetters JB/Burke/Melinda were?



If it was a sex game of some sort that night, it seems violent and also left marks on her skin. It`s hard to see any of the R´s doing that on Christmas night while leaving for a family vacation in Charlevoix the next morning.

About "toilet rage", so JB was abused that night before the toilet rage incident? Or were the injuries part of staging? What was she hit with? I don`t think the sink leaves fractures like on JB`s skull.


Another interesting part from the Bonita papers (where my recollection of JB sometimes sleeping in Burkes room came from): "Until recently, JonBenet wore pull up diapers, but Patsy quit using them because she thought the absorbent material would prevent her from feeling the wetness and waking up. Now when she had a bedwetting incident during the night JonBenet would usually get up and change her own clothes. Sometimes she would go into her brother’s bedroom and crawl into the extra bed to avoid going back to her own cold, wet one."

Was it even necessary for JB to wake up Patsy, when she had panties and clothes in her own room?

 

[BBB167893]

If it was a sex game of some sort that night, it seems violent and also left marks on her skin. It`s hard to see any of the R´s doing that on Christmas night while leaving for a family vacation in Charlevoix the next morning.

Agreed.

About "toilet rage", so JB was abused that night before the toilet rage incident?

Hard to say.

Or were the injuries part of staging?

My best guess. The Feds said that the injury from that night was staging.

What was she hit with?

Likely the flashlight, unless she was thrown into something.

I don`t think the sink leaves fractures like on JB`s skull.

That would depend on things like force, angle, etc.

Another interesting part from the Bonita papers (where my recollection of JB sometimes sleeping in Burkes room came from): "Until recently, JonBenet wore pull up diapers, but Patsy quit using them because she thought the absorbent material would prevent her from feeling the wetness and waking up. Now when she had a bedwetting incident during the night JonBenet would usually get up and change her own clothes. Sometimes she would go into her brother’s bedroom and crawl into the extra bed to avoid going back to her own cold, wet one."

Was it even necessary for JB to wake up Patsy, when she had panties and clothes in her own room?

Assuming PR was ever in bed that night...

 

[DeeDee249]

JR made a point of asking specifically for his golf clubs just DAYS after he found his daughter dead in their basement. In December. In Colorado. Why was it so important to get that golf bag out of the house? It's not like he had an urgent tee time scheduled. We know it was stored in the basement just on the other side of the wineceller door. There was plenty of room in that bag to hide things- the panties, the tape roll, etc. even if the golf club was not the weapon.

It was Patsy's sister who removed the golf bag in her police-sanctioned raid on the crime scene.

 

[GingBreade]

JR made a point of asking specifically for his golf clubs just DAYS after he found his daughter dead in their basement. In December. In Colorado. Why was it so important to get that golf bag out of the house? It's not like he had an urgent tee time scheduled. We know it was stored in the basement just on the other side of the wineceller door. There was plenty of room in that bag to hide things- the panties, the tape roll, etc. even if the golf club was not the weapon.

It was Patsy's sister who removed the golf bag in her police-sanctioned raid on the crime scene.

Yes! You'd think he'd be scared of the cops finding that stuff in the golf bag. IF they decided to look as Pam was leaving. Were there many cops there at the time?

 

[Mysteeri]

SuperDave wrote:
My best guess. The Feds said that the injury from that night was staging.

This is getting really bizarre.

About the golf bag- how many days afterwards was it retrieved? Was it on the same occasion that Pam collected things for the R`s before they left to Atlanta (I assume you can play golf there)? The golf bag was near the wine cellar and it wasn`t searched?

I now have PMPT and DOI, I think I should retriet to read them. But I don`t know if I`m going to get any wiser.. and don`t know who to believe.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes! You'd think he'd be scared of the cops finding that stuff in the golf bag. IF they decided to look as Pam was leaving. Were there many cops there at the time?

Don't know the exact number of cops, but they waited OUTSIDE while Patsy's sister was allowed unsupervised access to "retrieve a few things". One of the cops present said that the "few things" filled a patrol car or two.
Patsy's sister was given a police jacket to wear so as not to attract attention when going in and out. HA. What they REALLY mean was so as not to let anyone know they were allowing a family member of people still under the "umbrella of suspicion" to enter the crime scene.
That "umbrella of suspicion" had a lot of holes.
The police were told by the DA to treat the Rs as victims, not as suspects. Remember that without a search warrant (DA Hunter was responsible for those) the cops would not have been allowed to look in the golf bag. Or in anything else she may have removed from the home.

 

[DeeDee249]

SuperDave wrote:
My best guess. The Feds said that the injury from that night was staging.

This is getting really bizarre.

About the golf bag- how many days afterwards was it retrieved? Was it on the same occasion that Pam collected things for the R`s before they left to Atlanta (I assume you can play golf there)? The golf bag was near the wine cellar and it wasn`t searched?

I now have PMPT and DOI, I think I should retriet to read them. But I don`t know if I`m going to get any wiser.. and don`t know who to believe.

The golf bag was retrieved a few days after.
Now be realistic here...they were taking their murdered 6-year old daughter to Atlanta for BURIAL. Do you really thing distraught parents would be thinking about making sure they had their GOLF CLUBS? What, you think JR wanted to get in a little putting at the cemetery?
The Rs were planning to move back to Atlanta anyway, and professional movers packed up the house as soon as LE released it (far too soon, IMHO).
Why couldn't they have had the golf clubs sent with the rest of their things? Have you seen the crime scene photo of exactly where the golf bag was? It is on here under "The Crime Scene". Scroll down to find the "crime scene- basement" and it is photo #72. If you can't find it I will post it for you.
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ramseycase.htm

 

[madeleine]

I never understood the thing about dolls,what is it about the dolls,who took them out of the house and why?

 

[DeeDee249]

I never understood the thing about dolls,what is it about the dolls,who took them out of the house and why?

There has been confusion about the dolls. There were several dolls that factor into this case. There was a custom-ordered MyTwinn doll that Patsy gave to JB that Christmas morning, expecting JB to love it. She hated it. These dolls are custom ordered to look like a specific child- hair, eyes, distinguishing facial features, etc. Patsy ordered hers to look like JB in her pageant finery. The dolls are expensive, and there is speculation that Patsy was upset that JB tossed the doll aside, saying that it "didn't look like her".

There is also the American Girl dolls. JB owned some, including a Samantha doll. These dolls have vinyl heads and limbs with stuffed tan cotton cloth bodies. The heads are held on with a cord (NOT like the cord on the JB). I have a photo posted here on a thread stating so. It is down a little further on this page. It says "American Girl Doll Neck Cord".
The cord on these dolls has a knot at the back of the neck which gets in the way of the dolls' hair and clothes sometimes, and the manufacturer (the Pleasant Company) suggests to parents that they put a piece of duct tape over the knot.
There is speculation that this could have been where the tape came from. Tan cotton fibers that could have come from the tan cotton cloth doll body were found on JB.
It would be suspicious for that particular doll to have been removed (I think Patsy's sister removed it) from the house because the fibers could then have been matched to the fibers on the body, and if they were also on the tape, then it is even less likely that an intruder would have known that this particular doll had duct tape hidden under the clothes. But if the parents put it there, then it follows when staging the crime scene they'd know exactly where to find a piece of duct tape to tape her mouth. I am sure you know that there is no evidence that she struggled against the duct tape, and experts feel she was not conscious when it was applied.