Question

[Imon128]

The bloodstains were fresh and the panties had never been laundered.

Has that been documented in a book, or some other source that can be sued, should it be wrong?

I've never read either of those things you just stated to be fact or discovery until you posted it.

 

[tipper]

Try an experiment sometime--maybe in a psych class you teach---and see what people can actually remember about actual daily, mundane events. You've probably seen some televised experiments on TLC or Discovery you could model after.

That would be interesting. And before they start answering the questions tell them there will be negative repercussions if they answer something imcorrectly. So they are to say they don't know or don't recall for anything they don't have a clear, positive, and distinct memory of.

 

[Ivy]

On the other hand, LP, it would take some powerful arguments to convince a jury that JonBenet's molester/killer left only a teensy bit of DNA.

 

[Barbara]

Barbara, it's just you

This transcript is an interview more than 2 years after JonBenét's death.

Not only has Patsy been told to answer *as best she can* but she's encouraged not to make definite statements if she actually doesn't remember.

Try an experiment sometime--maybe in a psych class you teach---and see what people can actually remember about actual daily, mundane events. You've probably seen some televised experiments on TLC or Discovery you could model after.

Hi LP

LOL, so it is just me eh? Somehow that surprises me.

As far as the memory experiment, you can't go by ordinary mundane events. JBR's murder is no mundane event. Granted, I couldn't tell you what I did a week ago in detail, let alone 2 years ago. BUT...I can tell you every detail about what happened the day my father died, the day my daughter was born, the day I got married, and especially the details on the day my divorce papers came through

 

[Shylock]

PATSY: "I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on."
KANE: "And I will just state a fact here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties taken out of, by the police, out of JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom."
KANE: "Okay. And every one of those was either a size four or a size six. Okay?"


So where are the rest of the size 12 Bloomi panties? Patsy says they were in JonBenet's drawer-that she put them there herself. Kane says all the panties taken from that drawer by the police were size 4 or size 6.

 

[tipper]

Hi LP

LOL, so it is just me eh? Somehow that surprises me.

As far as the memory experiment, you can't go by ordinary mundane events. JBR's murder is no mundane event. Granted, I couldn't tell you what I did a week ago in detail, let alone 2 years ago. BUT...I can tell you every detail about what happened the day my father died, the day my daughter was born, the day I got married, and especially the details on the day my divorce papers came through

But how often do you get grilled and challenged on your recollection of those events?

Wouldn't happen in a non-mundane event?
From Crimelibrary:

An enterprising newspaperman had been tipped off that there was a kidnapping involving the Franks' boy. He had also heard that a boy had been found dead in a culvert near Wolf Lake, a probable drowning victim. He relayed the description of the dead boy to Mr. Franks, who did not think it matched his son. Franks' brother-in-law went check it out.

When the telephone rang, "George Johnson" told Ettelson, "I am sending a Yellow Cab for you. Get in and go to the drugstore at 1465 East Sixty-third Street." Ettelson handed the phone to Jacob and the message was repeated. In the trauma of the events, both men immediately forgot the address of the drugstore.

 

[Imon128]

However, Patsy not only remembered her addy in her 911 call, she gave it. Was she as distraught as she and John had tried to purport? Doubt it.

 

[popcorn]

I tried to do an underwear count on another thread and now that's totally screwed up- doesn't it seem all the panties removed in the search were JonBenet's even though they are given different vernacular and taken by different detectives, as if they weren't all kept in the same little old bathroom drawer.

 

[Toth]

A teensy bit is all it takes.

 

[Toth]

maybe,
not specifically
I'm not sure
I don't recall
it's possible, but..
I can't say for sure
I don't really remember
I think so, but....
Perhaps, but

And if you are ever deposed, your transcript will have the same phrases in it.

 

[Jayelles]

That would be interesting. And before they start answering the questions tell them there will be negative repercussions if they answer something imcorrectly. So they are to say they don't know or don't recall for anything they don't have a clear, positive, and distinct memory of.

Also tell them that the more they do remember, the more likely it will be that you will nail the perp who terrorised, brutalised and killed a beautiful, innocent 6 year old child.

 

[Barbara]

And if you are ever deposed, your transcript will have the same phrases in it.

lol Toth, nothing in my life is that exciting any more to require a deposition. As far as those phrases, well with menopause beginning, and turning 50, I use those phrases at least three times a day now. :crazy:

 

[Jayelles]

DNA in the underwear or on the body of a sexually assaulted and murdered person is powerful evidence against the person who owns that DNA. It happens more and more as DNA is used as physical evidence in cases of rape, murder, assault, etc

It would take some powerful, logical, and physical explanations to convince the parents, law enforcement, a judge, and a jury that the owner of that DNA mixed with JonBenét's blood in her panties was not her killer.

I would be more convinced of this if the DNA under her nails and in her underwear was fresh.

That's a bugaboo for me.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

I caught something interesting regarding the panties. First of all who is Jenny? The person Patsy claims to have bought the panties for in the first place?

Was the package the panties were taken from ever found? It sounds like to me that only ONE pair of size 12 panties were taken. Is it just me or is it ODD for someone else's parents to be buying another little girls underwear? I cannot recall ever receiving underwear for our daughter as a Christmas gift from any of my brothers or sister in laws.

Is Jenny even a realitive? I know Thomas mentions a package of oversized panties in his book, but I no longer have the book. To me the oversized panties suggest they were bought for an entirely different reason. To go over the diapers Pasty used for JonBenet when she wet the bed. By denying that the panties were used for that purpose indicates Patsy was lying about the bed wetting.

 

[Jayelles]

I think the point is that these particular knickers were "Bloomies" which have a certain degree of novelty value. So that said, I don't think it was a case of Patsy buying underwear for her niece as Patsy buying Bloomies for her niece. There is a 'subtle' difference.

 

[Toth]

What makes you think it was "not fresh"?
What exactly do you mean by 'fresh'?
If a stain were a week old would it be fresh? OR stale?
What about twelve hours old?
What about twenty-four hours old?

 

[Jayelles]

What makes you think it was "not fresh"?
What exactly do you mean by 'fresh'?
If a stain were a week old would it be fresh? OR stale?
What about twelve hours old?
What about twenty-four hours old?

We seem to be going round and around in circles here.

Remind me of a man
(what man?)
A man with power
(what power?)
The power of Voodoo
(Who doo?)
You do
(Do what?)
Remind me of a man
(What man)
....

By not fresh - I mean that the foreign DNA degraded to less than 10 markers whereas JonBenet's DNA - which we know to have been deposited withing the previous 24 hours, was complete.

THAT is the problem that so many of us (including experts in DNA) have in believing that the DNA definitely came from her killer and WHY it is important to consider the fact that it may not have come from her killer.

Let's look at it another way.

A farmer has two hens which lay one egg a day. The white hen lays white eggs and the red hen lays brown eggs. One day, the red hen goes missing. A few days after that, the farmer find a white egg and a brown egg in the barn. The white egg is fresh, but the brown egg is starting to go off. Should the farmer still assume that his beloved brown hen came back in the night and laid him a degraded brown egg? Since the eggs are together, does that mean they were laid at the same time?

What does logic say about the DNA. Why should her killer's DNA degrade within 12 hours when her own does not?

If she scratched her killer, why has the DNA from the skin cells degraded after only 12 hours when it can survive for much

According to this article, most DNA degrades within 72 hours of death, but it can survive for decades and even centuries.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/12/25/dna_may_aid_hunt_for_roots/

So... to answer your question, with some questions....
Would a week old egg which had been kept in the cool be fresh or stale?
Would a two day old egg which had been lying in the sun be fresh or stale?
If you've got two samples of DNA and one is intact and the other is cracked and degraded - which is fresh and which is stale?

 

[Shylock]

Would a week old egg which had been kept in the cool be fresh or stale?
Would a two day old egg which had been lying in the sun be fresh or stale?
If you've got two samples of DNA and one is intact and the other is cracked and degraded - which is fresh and which is stale?

Who cares. The only thing we need to know is: If you leave sour cream out, does it go good?

 

[popcorn]

PATSY: "I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on."
KANE: "And I will just state a fact here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties taken out of, by the police, out of JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom."
KANE: "Okay. And every one of those was either a size four or a size six. Okay?"


So where are the rest of the size 12 Bloomi panties? Patsy says they were in JonBenet's drawer-that she put them there herself. Kane says all the panties taken from that drawer by the police were size 4 or size 6.

So it's possible there wasn't even a brand new package in the first place. Just a single pair as in maybe she borrowed them at a pageant if Jonbenet had an accident.

There weren't other days of the week in a size 12, that's quite a profound revelation.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

No, it's not possible that it's an old pair. The package was recovered by Ramsey investigators after the house was turned back over to the Ramseys by BPD. The Ramseys never went back into the house, but private investigators did.

Lin Wood turned the package over to the Boulder DA last year (or was it 2002?).

If the panties were previously worn and washed there would never have been this silly suggestion that some male worker in the Asian manufactoring plant left his DNA via a sneeze over the panty fabric.

Edit to add that the BPD collected used underwear from the house in case there was incriminating evidence on any of it.