Questions you'd like answers to...

[UKGuy]

Because it was disposed of, along with the other items that were disposed of, from the house.

Userid,
How do we know this, why does it need to be disposed of, what is the percentage in that when the remaining piece is just put back into the paint-tote?

The curious aspect is Coroner Meyer's verbatim autopsy remarks

Search Warrant 12/29/96. Excerpt

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Which suggests a sexual assault using a finger and not an injury caused by some unknown instrument, sometimes termed as Instrumental Assault a bit like the Blunt Force Trauma phraseology.

Yet nearly everyone assumes a piece of wooden splinter was found inside JonBenet, so how does that square with a Digital Sexual Assault?

i.e. was the sexual assault separate from any assault using the paintbrush?

 

[Userid]

Userid,

What theory, what work, please demonstrate with an example? If I possess knowledge that Patsy did no housework, I cannot infer from it that she never served JonBenet a bowl of pineapple after arriving back from the White's party.



Your maybes and hypotheticals are just that, a diversion from the common sense assumption that either/or both Patsy and Burke handled the bowl after arriving back from the White's party. Why, because as you suggest fingerprints dissolve over time and should not LHP's fingerprints be on the bowl also as she was the one carrying out the housework?

Maybe everything on the table, no in the breakfast bar, had been left out for days, who can tell?

The analysis of the pineapple would tell BPD how old it was, i.e. days, hours, etc. If only Burke's and Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl then its safe to conclude one of them were the last to handle the bowl?

Burke Ramsey's fingerprints were on the Glass with the teabag, and the Bowl of pineapple. I've never seen any fingerprint test results from the serving spoon in the bowl being released.

So those fingerprints and Burke Ramsey's touch-dna being deposited on JonBenet's favorite Barbie Nightgown place him directly in JonBenet's vicinity on the night of her death.

.

If her prints are on it, and JB had pineapple in her system, then anyone can easily infer that she was served pineapple by PR. That is my example. Serving her pineapple that night, and regularly doing housework, are two separate things entirely.

And also, my "maybe" was just as valid as the "maybe PR put the glass bowl away days before" theory that you didn't have any problems with. Funny how you accept that hypothetical, but dismiss my hypothetical. That's hypocrisy.

If we're talking common sense, the common sense here would be to believe that PR served JBR the pineapple. You are the one who is bending over backwards to disregard common sense.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
How do we know this, why does it need to be disposed of, what is the percentage in that when the remaining piece is just put back into the paint-tote?

The curious aspect is Coroner Meyer's verbatim autopsy remarks

Search Warrant 12/29/96. Excerpt


Which suggests a sexual assault using a finger and not an injury caused by some unknown instrument, sometimes termed as Instrumental Assault a bit like the Blunt Force Trauma phraseology.

Yet nearly everyone assumes a piece of wooden splinter was found inside JonBenet, so how does that square with a Digital Sexual Assault?

i.e. was the sexual assault separate from any assault using the paintbrush?

We know because it was never found. None of these things (the size 6's, if they even existed; the missing paintbrush; etc.) were never found.

 

[UKGuy]

We know because it was never found. None of these things (the size 6's, if they even existed; the missing paintbrush; etc.) were never found.

Userid,
We have never been told if JonBenet has any missing size-6 underwear, BPD have never released a description by day of the week or manufacturer, e.g. Bloomingdale, curious that.

The missing piece of paintbrush may or may not be missing as Missing in Action or simply redacted, only BPD knows !

.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
We have never been told if JonBenet has any missing size-6 underwear, BPD have never released a description by day of the week or manufacturer, e.g. Bloomingdale, curious that.

The missing piece of paintbrush may or may not be missing as Missing in Action or simply redacted, only BPD knows !

.

I know we were never told that. You alluded to that yourself (that there was).

Again, as we've gone over, there is absolutely zero evidence of any redaction. Zero. Also, the ME would not resort to "code words" to "obscure" the finding.

 

[sharebear]

My question may seem odd to others, but why such a major holiday as "Christmas", especially with young children, would ya just umm.. say "forget" to charge batteries for your video camera? Johns' answer basically just doesn't cut it with me, because he contradicts his own self. This information is from his and Patsy's own book. So for him to say they didn't make home video's since Beth's death is a flat lie because they did. I don't believe anything this man says. I just wonder why they for some reason or another didn't want videos done on this Chrismas morning? Does anyone know if they had videos made Christmas of 1995? I don't have this book and can't find info anywhere except that they had Christmas '95 in Boulder.

Home movies were 'not' filmed Christmas morning in Boulder (DOI pg 4)
John Ramsey forgot to charge movie camera batteries (DOI pg 4)
John Ramsey didn't want home movies after Beth died in 1992 (DOI pg 4)

Soon JonBenét slipped under the tree and removed a brightly wrapped gift from its hiding place near the back. She had found exactly the right present for me at FAO Schwarz during a trip to New York City with her mom in November. Patsy later told me that when JonBenét had seen the shiny red gumball machine that dispensed jellybeans, she insisted I had to have it because I love jellybeans. She marched across the room and proudly presented the gift to me, with a big hug and kiss.
"Betcha can't guess what this is!" she teased.
"Give me a little hint," I pried. The suspense was too much for her, so she quickly helped me unwrap the package.
"Oh, wow. Would you look at that!" I exclaimed.
"Do you really like it, Daddy?"
"I sure do, Honey. I love it and I love you!" I gave her a big hug.
A moment later she looked up at me. "Daddy, what about . . .?" She did the standard charade symbol for a movie camera with one hand to her face and the other cranking the film reel. She was excited and wanted me to take home videos.
"Well . . ." I said rubbing my chin. "I forgot to charge the batteries of the video camera last night. They're all run down. But here is our regular camera. I can take a few pictures. You get over there next to Mommy."
Since the death of my oldest daughter, Beth, I hadn't wanted to take away from the moment at hand by stepping out of the scene to videotape or photograph it. I felt that life was too precious and went past too quickly to interrupt it by fussing with a camera. Now I wanted to live in the moment, rather than preserving it for later enjoyment. We had learned the hard way that sometimes later can be too sad. I still was not up to looking at the home videos we had made of all those earlier Christmases when Beth was still with us. I thought about just how special this Christmas morning was as I snapped a few pictures of the children with their opened gifts lying around the room. I had no way of knowing these would be the last photographs I would take of my youngest and most defenseless daughter.



Beth Ramsey killed in automobile accident Chicago Illinios (DOI pg13) 1992- 01-08
Home movies were filmed Christmas morning in Boulder (DOI pg89) 1993-12-25
Home movies were filmed Christmas morning in Boulder (DOI pg92) 1994-12-25

Ramseys spent Christmas in Boulder, Colorado (DOI pg1) 1995-12-25
Bill McReynolds played Santa at Ramseys Christmas party (DOI pg98) 1995-12-25
Ramseys had Christmas dinner at Fleet/Priscilla White's house (DOI pg8) 1995-12-25

Creepy santa maybe he came over that night did not JBR say Santa will be making a special visit?

 

[sharebear]

And lets not forget that pedophiles, are child molestors who, according to all stats are repeat offenders, and never "cured". There had never been, nor since, ever been a child who was killed in this manner. IMO, had it been an intruder, there would have been reports of another victim. Lets give the benefit of the doubt, and say he died or was imprisoned for some reason. He would have still commited child abuse, using auto asphixia before or after JBR, before being imprisoned or having died. Never, ever happened. That dog don't hunt, as they say. What was done to JBR, was ONCE in history considering ALL the facts (garrotte, sexual rape using an implement all while staying in the home, leaving her in the home, etc. etc. etc) THIS is one of the many reasons that leads me to fully believe it was a family member.

Maybe not a family member but people the family had over because JBR was being abused not only by the pageants she was made to do but then the family letting others abuse her?

 

[sharebear]

"There had never been, nor since, ever been a child who was killed in this manner. IMO, had it been an intruder, there would have been reports of another victim."

There would have been a HUNDRED by now!

There was something else, too. I came across this just by chance.

It was a drawing Burke had done: it was of a vagina. It was EXTERMELY accurate in it's depiction. He even knew where the clitoris was. This was about a year and a half after the murder.

Why would a ten-year-old have that kind of knowledge?

Maybe he was also abused physically as well at an early age? If they were letting pedophiles have access to the kids this would certainly show why the parents refused to talk with the police.

 

[sharebear]

i don't have a source, but i have read where patsy's father gave patsy a book entitled something like, "why does johnny touch his sister?" i think patsy was worried for a long time about burke being inappropriate with jbr. anyone else heard this. it's in one of the books by steve or schiller.

He was only 10 not really old enough to rape anyone right? But he could be forced to participate in child if parents as weird as they are with known child predators. I am sure investigators probably looked into whether she had been exploited this way?

 

[sharebear]

Angelwngs--
"The R's said, Since the older daughter's death in a car accident JR did not want videos taken of the children. (For what it's worth...that was the "R Spin" in answer to the question of why there was no video, in addition to the camera battery not being charged...Which brings up another inconsistency...If JR didn't want videos taken, why mention the camera battery not being charged as a reason for no video?????)"

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Great Point! Inconsistency was a kind word to use. LOL
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BBB167893 ---
"It was a drawing Burke had done: it was of a vagina. It was EXTERMELY accurate in it's depiction. He even knew where the clitoris was. This was about a year and a half after the murder.

Why would a ten-year-old have that kind of knowledge?"
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OMG I'm shocked at this! Maybe I'm even shocked enough
to revisit the BDI idea. Could this whole case be any more
confusing?
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BBB167893
Anybody else notice that the doll looks like she has a cord tied around her neck?"
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Seriously did you ever see a picture of the twin doll?
I think it's surprising that we didn't have pictures of
JonBenet with her twin doll next to her in front of the
Christmas tree.
Maybe something did go wrong that morning.
Too bad about those batteries, isn't it?

Almost like the parents saw these two kids as worthless without the older child. Why would you not want videos of them unless maybe you only take sick photos of them together?

 

[David Rogers]

Creepy santa maybe he came over that night did not JBR say Santa will be making a special visit?

Maybe creepy Grandpa came over.

 

[amateuragent]

"I'm sorry to get so graphic, so please don't read my question if you are sensitive. My question is why would the sexual pervert, whether John or another male use the paint brush for vaginal penetration rather than a more intimate way such as a finger? Sorry! This has been bugging me for ages, and why I believe it was Patsy rather than John or an intruder. They would want it more "personal" interaction, wouldn't you think?"

Totally agree. The FBI said this was not done for gratification.

Often when an object is used for penetration, it signals some form of punishment or retaliation- so I agree, this act was not done for sexual gratification.

 

[Dragognosis]

How do you know the brush handle was inserted into JonBenet?

 

[amateuragent]

Good point, I've heard that before but not sure if its been verified.

 

[UKGuy]

Good point, I've heard that before but not sure if its been verified.

amateuragent,
It's never been verified and there is a piece of the paintbrush missing despite investigators searching and hoovering the carpet for it, which allows the idea it was left inside JonBenet?

If you consider what Coroner Meyer said:

Search Warrant 12/29/96. Excerpt

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Later that same evening JonBenet was examined by Dr. Andrew Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital Child Protection Team, and concluded that a foreign object had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00 o’clock position.

Also, now here is the important bit:
Foreign Faction by James Kolar, Excerpt

Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of sexual contact prior to the date of her death.

Dr. Sirontak could not provide an opinion as to how old those injuries were or how many times JonBenét may have been assaulted and would defer to the expert opinions of other medical examiners.

Putting it all together it loks as if one of the parents staged a sexual assault to cover a sexual assault that night as the prior assaults were patently not staged.

So the facts gathered so far are that Coroner Meyer thinks there was a sexual assault by someone using a finger, Dr. Sirontak thinks someone used an instrument, i.e. the paintbrush to cause the acute injury, which is separate from the assault by finger and that there is evidence of prior chronic sexual assault, e.g. healed scar tissue.

My take on all this is that a prior sexualized staging was morphed into the wine-cellar kidnapping scenario, so JonBenet was wiped down and redressed.

To my eyes the case looks like JDI or BDI with Patsy helping out?

.

 

[Tadpole12]

via candy

@1:23

'brown' attache case leaning against wall

screenshot?

 

[Userid]

Good point, I've heard that before but not sure if its been verified.

It's been supposed, due to the "birefringent material" that was found (in the AR). That material could have come from the paintbrush -- presumably, the piece that was never recovered (out of the 3 pieces). Only the brush and the middle piece (garrotte) were ever recovered.

 

[Tadpole12]

hmmm BR's
GrumpyPoll is back up post lawsuit.

Grumpy Poll

WHY?
a) cause it's a money maker?
b) cause cats can't sue for copyright infringement?
c) ISP spying?
d) cause the 'fat cat' left the corp?


***********
add:

the format/appearance of the site differs from original
other pages non functional
no responses:
http://www.grumpypoll.com/questions/585/responses

BUT

image of cat remains on google
GrumpyPoll - Google Search

 

[Swirlz]

Is there a way to be able to tell whether or not the paintbrush handle was inserted postmortem?

 

[UKGuy]

Is there a way to be able to tell whether or not the paintbrush handle was inserted postmortem?

Swirlz,
Yes, but with forensic qualifications. Depends on the passage of time postmortem, as a postmortem injury will have a different forensic profile, e.g. prior injuries show signs of healing so can be dated.

One question to consider: is the person who digitally assaulted JonBenet the same person who assaulted JonBenet with the paintbrush?

The distinction in the injuries might be why Coroner Meyer opted for a second opinion?

.