Questions you'd like answers to...

[kanzz]

Here is a question I'd like an answer to:

Does anyone know how long it takes for the body of a deceased person to begin to smell? I've tried to google it to no avail. I ask because of this reason: would there have been a smell when FW opened the wine cellar door around 6 am? I suppose it's somewhat of an impossible question because we don't definitively know when the TOD was for JBR.

I don't think FW would have detected any odor when he opened the door to the WR.
I've been around a lot of corpses in the hospital setting. Some of them have had to wait up to 24 hours for the mortuary or ME to pick up. In the absence of terminal disease (which sometimes has an odor all its own) or gross contamination of the body, an odor in a controlled environment is not usually easily detectable.
JBR was on a concrete basement floor.. therefore, somewhat cooler than a regular floor. That might have slowed decomp somewhat.
I've always thought that the comments about an odor of decomposition at the time the body was found was primarily due to the tape having just been removed from her mouth and the movement of the body making the gasses that had formed in her belly escape.

 

[Userid]

I was wondering the same thing.

When you buy meat from a supermarket (and it isn't kept refrigerated) it doesn't begin to smell for a very long time, does it?

I'm a vegetarian btw.

That may be a hard question to have answered because, (at least from personal experience) those who buy meat tend to immediately refrigerate it as opposed to leaving it out for any length of time (in order to prevent it going stale and wasting your money). Leaving any meat out for a prolonged period of time isn't typical, like ice-cream. Even if you're not freezing meat, you're putting it in the fridge (if you're not immediately cooking it). At least, that's how I've always done it (with the belief that is how it should always be done, unless you want to get sick).

But to state the obvious, a piece of butchered meat (that's wrapped) is probably not the best comparison.

 

[Userid]

I don't think FW would have detected any odor when he opened the door to the WR.
I've been around a lot of corpses in the hospital setting. Some of them have had to wait up to 24 hours for the mortuary or ME to pick up. In the absence of terminal disease (which sometimes has an odor all its own) or gross contamination of the body, an odor in a controlled environment is not usually easily detectable.
JBR was on a concrete basement floor.. therefore, somewhat cooler than a regular floor. That might have slowed decomp somewhat.
I've always thought that the comments about an odor of decomposition at the time the body was found was primarily due to the tape having just been removed from her mouth and the movement of the body making the gasses that had formed in her belly escape.

Thanks Kanzz -- I know she was wrapped in blankets as well, so perhaps that had an effect one way or another. But assuming she was murdered by 1 am, that would be at least 5 hours that she was in the room, and an incredibly small room to boot. Evidently, FW didn't smell anything, which is all we can really know at this point.

 

[otg]

Here is a question I'd like an answer to:

Does anyone know how long it takes for the body of a deceased person to begin to smell? I've tried to google it to no avail. I ask because of this reason: would there have been a smell when FW opened the wine cellar door around 6 am? I suppose it's somewhat of an impossible question because we don't definitively know when the TOD was for JBR.

Left alone (undisturbed), it would take a dead body about a day to become noticeably foul-smelling. But before that it would probably begin to start smelling from decay.

As kanzz mentioned, some of the gasses in the intestines might escape after having been suppressed earlier from the tape over her mouth. Most of those gasses are produced while a person is alive, but they are absorbed and carried away by the blood circulating in a living person. After death, they begin building up until released. This is the cause of the bloating seen in unattended corpses. External putrefaction of a body will become evident by the color on the outside before the skin itself begins to smell. Following is a pretty good article that you may find interesting:

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

Also consider that some of the foul odor from her body was possibly from the urine on her clothing which, by ~12 hours later, would be pretty rank. When White opened the door to the WC, it wasn't as old and it was still wrapped up in the blanket.

One more factor to consider in comparing the human body to meat from the supermarket is that the meat has been maintained in a refrigerated environment, so some time would be involved for it to reach a temperature at which it will start becoming putrefied. A body OTOH begins decomposition from a temperature of just under 100 degrees.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

As I’m viewing this photo of JAR’s bedroom, it looks as though there is a cord dangling in front of the night stand. JR’s statement in the ’98 interview suggested there was a phone in JAR’s room which he references as PR’s room - I think there was phone in Patsy's room.

View attachment 105123

In connection to this topic there was once a report in one of the tabloids which was never verified, but caught my eye as it mentioned an email. As most everyone knows there was both truth and gossip printed in the tabloids in the early years. Many times because they were paying for information, they did end up with material prior to the mainstream newspapers. After the publishing of PMPT Schiller appeared in a chat sponsored by Barnes and Noble. The listeners in the chat room were presenting written questions to Schiller to extract additional information not in his book. One of the questions was to verify the information within the tabloid which indicated that a late night email was sent from BR’s computer on December 25/26. Unfortunately Schiller never answered whether it was true or not.

:thinking: Hard not to wonder a little more about the Atlanta break-in in which JR's laptop was stolen.

I'm getting caught up on this thread so I don't know if anyone has commented on this yet or not, but I came across the article in question recently and was like wtf. I pretty much discard this as BS since we've never heard anything about this since but it definitely made me wonder where this story came from. I can dig up the link if anyone cares, it's from the Internet Archive so I don't believe this is available anywhere else online anymore.

3-16-1999
Star: JonBenét E-mail Mystery

Brother sent secret computer message on night of murder

JonBenét Ramsey's brother Burke sent an e-mail to a friend after his sister was murdered--and authorities now believe it could be a key piece of evidence in the baffling case.

Law enforcement authorities say the newly discovered computer message proves the Ramseys lied to cops when they said Burke slept through the night.

STAR has also learned exclusively that top investigators have real confidence--for the first time in more than two years--that JonBenét's murder can be finally solved.

Three computers were taken from the Ramsey house for analysis, one of them Burke's. And though authorities are tight-lipped about the e-mail investigation, they call its discovery "significant."

STAR has learned that investigators now believe that the trigger for the Christmas-night violence in Boulder was when the 6-year-old child beauty queen wet her own bed and then crawled into bed with Burke, then 9.

"Burke immediately got angry at his sister," says a highly placed source. "We now think the horrors that followed were set in motion at that moment."

While family friends insist the two were close, investigators have long speculated that Burke had every reason to be resentful of all the attention heaped on JonBenét.

The potential new e-mail evidence is further proof that Burke knows far more than he's admitted in two interviews with authorities.

Sources say that negotiations are under way between the separate lawyers for John, Patsy and Burke Ramsey to have him testify before the JonBenét grand jury. No one under 10 at the time of a crime can be charged in Colorado.

"Burke's never really been properly interviewed," says a source. "But we know a lot more now to press him on."

The first evidence that Burke was not asleep came last summer with the disclosure that a high-tech enhancement of the tape of the 911 call made by Patsy the morning of December 26 had revealed a boy's voice in the background.

STAR was the first to report on the discovery that JonBenét had been up late the night of her murder eating pineapple--and that fingerprint evidence indicated Burke was up with her.

By Richard Gooding



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[DrollForeignFaction]

Here's mine:
When was this video taken?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e2kucILnOxo

If anyone knows I'd be eternally grateful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[claudicici]

It says it was taken January 1997?

 

[Miz Adventure]

Here is a question that I would like an answer to.

Was Burke's computer removed from the house by police, and analysed?

Someone on another thread stated, or showed a link to, the fact that BR sent an email to a friend during that night which incriminated the family.

Could there be any truth in this?

---------------------------------------------

Oh, and here's another question - there is a pro-Ramsey poster on another forum by the name of undertheradar. Am I correct in thinking this is JAR? I think I read somewhere that it was him.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Here's the question that boggles my mind for a while along with follow up questions ..

** How come JB's hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the paintbrush? **

1- How was JB's hair style at the party?
(my guess half pony tail top of her head as seen in Ramsey party pictures and kids Christmas morning picture)
2- With the Gap top on her , it doesn't seem that she was readied for bed so the second ponytail done for bed claim does not sit well imo.
3-When was the second ponytail under the first one fixed ?
(was it fixed during the cover up ? / was she strangled twice the second being for staging? P probably might have loosened / cut the rope around her neck when she found JBR unconscious if that was the case )

 

[Miz Adventure]

I think JBR had two partial ponytails in her hair at the party - one above the other.

And it's quite understandable how her hair got entwined in the garrote. I would have been surprised if it hadn't.

I can see no point in strangling the child again after the first time. It wouldn't have staged anything. As far as I know she was only strangled once. I don't believe the garrotting was for staging anyway - it was something that was done by somebody with mental issues.

 

[Userid]

^ I'm unsure....I'm like Servant in that, I'm somewhat befuddled why her hair was entwined also, because it was entwined in the knot of the broken-paintbrush of the garrotte. So evidently, the "noose" (for lack of a better word) was applied around her neck first, then the other end was tied around the broken handle while the noose was already around her neck. I literally just thought of that right now -- because I always assumed that the knots on the paint brush would have been fastened first, before the noose was tied around her neck.

I wonder, if this gives the IDI'ers more ammo -- because if the noose was tied first, and the knots of the paintbrush were tied after the noose had already been applied, one could argue that is evidence that the killer needed to control JBR while he tied the knots on the paintbrush, which perhaps would be indicative of her being alive and/or struggling.

I guess my point is, it befuddles me because if she was unconscious already, there would be no need to tie the knot on the paintbrush so close to her head/hair. It would have been easier to fasten that knot away from her head/hair, while she lay unconscious. There wouldn't have been a need to tie that knot so close to her. Of course, maybe I just don't know how a garrotte works -- maybe there is simply no other way around creating one without tying the noose around the neck first (whether the victim is unconscious or not).

 

[Userid]

Double post, sorry.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Here is a question that I would like an answer to.

Was Burke's computer removed from the house by police, and analysed?

Someone on another thread stated, or showed a link to, the fact that BR sent an email to a friend during that night which incriminated the family.

Could there be any truth in this?

---------------------------------------------

Oh, and here's another question - there is a pro-Ramsey poster on another forum by the name of undertheradar. Am I correct in thinking this is JAR? I think I read somewhere that it was him.

I was the one who posted the article about Burke's supposed email, I think in this thread. It was from the tabloid Star in 1999, before Burke testified to the GJ. It claimed that police had taken 3 computers including Burke's (which is likely true) and found an email on Burke's computer sent after the murder, proving he didn't sleep through the night (less likely to be true). If this is factual, which I doubt, it would have been something Burke was asked about under GJ secrecy. But if this info was obtained by police and in their files you'd expect Kolar would have been able to mention it in his book. My guess is the source was confused or lying, if the tabloid even had a source.


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[Miz Adventure]

There's an inventory here but it doesn't give specifics

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm

 

[UKGuy]

Here's the question that boggles my mind for a while along with follow up questions ..

** How come JB's hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the paintbrush? **

1- How was JB's hair style at the party?
(my guess half pony tail top of her head as seen in Ramsey party pictures and kids Christmas morning picture)
2- With the Gap top on her , it doesn't seem that she was readied for bed so the second ponytail done for bed claim does not sit well imo.
3-When was the second ponytail under the first one fixed ?
(was it fixed during the cover up ? / was she strangled twice the second being for staging? P probably might have loosened / cut the rope around her neck when she found JBR unconscious if that was the case )

1- How was JB's hair style at the party?
(my guess half pony tail top of her head as seen in Ramsey party pictures and kids Christmas morning picture)

Only party guests and BPD know.

2- With the Gap top on her , it doesn't seem that she was readied for bed so the second ponytail done for bed claim does not sit well imo.

OK for everyone who already doesn't know, here is a partial list of what does not match the R's version of events: 1. Ponytails, 2. Size-12's, and 3. The Pineapple.

3-When was the second ponytail under the first one fixed ?

Probably after she arrived home from the White's, but that's a guess.

was she strangled twice the second being for staging? P probably might have loosened /

Depends on who you think actually asphyxiated JonBenet. What is possible is that the ligature was looped twice around JonBenet's neck, knotted to the paintbrush, so to stage an asphyxiation effect?

Do we get that, i.e. the ligature plus paintbrush is simply staging to mask the first fatal ligature asphyxiation?

So lets assume, for whatever reason, BR ligature asphyxiates JonBenet with the cord.

Along comes, say Patsy, and fashions the ligature and paintbrush as above, possibly fiddling about to get it right. i.e. embedding her hair in the knots, then pulling it tight to make sure it looks effective, and that's it, job done?

Kolar reckons BR did it all, by that I'm assuming that means assaulting JonBenet, whacking her on the head, asphyxiating her, then redressing her in size-12's and his own long johns, essentially the parents did the rest of the staging?

.

 

[Annapurna]

I strongly suspect the second ponytail was done after she arrived home from the White's.

My reasons:
1) the elastic was blue and did not match her outfit. PR liked to be really matchy-matchy (just think of all the pics of them in matching sweaters and stuff!)
2) the hair products seen on the counter downstairs.
3) JBR had long, bleached hair. This would have been extremely prone to tangles and anyone who spends time around kids would know this can be a problem when it comes time to comb...there might be some tears. The hair products on the counter look like a detangler. It makes sense that PR would pull her hair into a pony to stop it from tangling so that she wouldn't have to fight with JB early the next morning.

 

[kanzz]

^ I'm unsure....I'm like Servant in that, I'm somewhat befuddled why her hair was entwined also, because it was entwined in the knot of the broken-paintbrush of the garrotte. So evidently, the "noose" (for lack of a better word) was applied around her neck first, then the other end was tied around the broken handle while the noose was already around her neck. I literally just thought of that right now -- because I always assumed that the knots on the paint brush would have been fastened first, before the noose was tied around her neck.

I wonder, if this gives the IDI'ers more ammo -- because if the noose was tied first, and the knots of the paintbrush were tied after the noose had already been applied, one could argue that is evidence that the killer needed to control JBR while he tied the knots on the paintbrush, which perhaps would be indicative of her being alive and/or struggling.

I guess my point is, it befuddles me because if she was unconscious already, there would be no need to tie the knot on the paintbrush so close to her head/hair. It would have been easier to fasten that knot away from her head/hair, while she lay unconscious. There wouldn't have been a need to tie that knot so close to her. Of course, maybe I just don't know how a garrotte works -- maybe there is simply no other way around creating one without tying the noose around the neck first (whether the victim is unconscious or not).

Nah - this doesn't give IDI's any ammo. It's how I thought it went down all along. Even that maybe the paintbrush handle could have been added after the death... ergo, PR's fibers entangled in the knot.

The length of the cord alone would have been sufficient to have ligature strangled her, especially since she was likely unconscious and near dead already. The paintbrush handle was not really necessary and might have been part of the staging. Tying it into the cord was probably done in a hurry and the hair probably became entangled accidentally. jmo

That thing wasn't a garrotte. A garrotte has two handles. This was... I don't know.. a simple cord with a slip-knot. That was turned into a ligature. gah

 

[Miz Adventure]

I've always believed that the back section of JBR's hair was put into two ponytails before she went to the party - one ponytail above the other.

I think it's highly unlikely that Patsy would have started fiddling about with JBR's hair after they came home.

If JBR was asleep on the journey then JR probably did carry her upstairs but I think PR woke her so she could go to the toilet, as she was known to have a problem with bed wetting.

I suspect that was the only thing they did before JBR was put back in her bed.

(Until of course she woke up later and went downstairs........)

 

[Miz Adventure]

Has anyone read this book? If so, what do they think?

The Craven Silence (True Crime Worldwide Vintage Edition Book 1)

By Nick van der Leek and Lisa Wilson.

 

[Userid]

Nah - this doesn't give IDI's any ammo. It's how I thought it went down all along. Even that maybe the paintbrush handle could have been added after the death... ergo, PR's fibers entangled in the knot.

The length of the cord alone would have been sufficient to have ligature strangled her, especially since she was likely unconscious and near dead already. The paintbrush handle was not really necessary and might have been part of the staging. Tying it into the cord was probably done in a hurry and the hair probably became entangled accidentally. jmo

That thing wasn't a garrotte. A garrotte has two handles. This was... I don't know.. a simple cord with a slip-knot. That was turned into a ligature. gah

Just so I'm understanding you right, are you saying that the strangulation was done first, with just the ligature....and that, after the strangulation was completed (and the ligature was still around her neck), then the paintbrush was tied onto the other end?

I always thought the handle was necessary because of the type of noose that was used, but I could be wrong. Although not impossible like you say, I still think it would have been somewhat difficult to strangle someone with a ligature as thin as a shoe lace -- as it would have been hard to grip with both hands.