Questions you'd like answers to...

[kanzz]

Sorry, being a limey!
I meant courts that deal with family matters rather than criminal cases. Could be anything from child access in divorces to social services making children wards of court to judges making medical treatment decisions for minors.

Here in the UK the entire case can be held in secret in an FPC and absolutely no reports are allowed. It has resulted in some shocking cases here, only revealed through later (usually criminal) court proceedings.

I just wondered if these closed (then sealed) proceedings are possible in the States?

No apology necessary!

I think this is possible here, but I believe it is rare. I'm just going from memory here, though.

 

[BoldBear]

Maybe Jonbenet got out at the Stines and was given pineapple there. .? It would explain: why jb had to be asleep in the car and not carried gifts in, like Burke said. The Stines silence - they knew p&j were lying. A reaon for pineapple in her system. The pineapple on the table could have been placed there by Patsy to make it look like an intruder fed her it - if it even crossed her mind. Just looking at things from different angles

If they were trying to put an intruder in the house, there are many other things they can do than put a bowl of pineapple on the table and then deny it.

 

[mandystrange70]

If they were trying to put an intruder in the house, there are many other things they can do than put a bowl of pineapple on the table and then deny it.

Absoluely, i was giving them a reason they might cover up going to Stines, if as was put something happened in the car. FWIW i dont personally believe that. Im inclined to believe Burke got it from the fridge, jb came back down after being put to bed. Their parents were upstairs rowing - patsy's rage simmering all day over john leaving for 3-4 hrs on Christmas Day. She never bought the plane clean up, prob believed he was visiting another woman. Even if he wasnt, it didnt look like he wanted to spend time with his family; Patsy being left to cope with the children alone, as usual. My opinion only.

If they were trying to put an intruder in the house, there are many other things they can do than put a bowl of pineapple on the table and then deny it.

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[otg]

I have another question. What evidence do we have that JBR's brain swelled after she was hit with that heavy object? The autopsy reports says nothing about edema or swelling.

Greetings, Miz Adventure. Medical Examiners don't write ARs for laypersons. Generally, they don't write in the AR their interpretations of what they see. The AR is only to record the objective observations they make of what they see during the autopsy.

Dr. Meyer wrote in the AR the following which addresses the brain swelling (edema):

The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified.
​

The sulci and gyri are the valleys and peaks on the outer surface of the brain that give it a corrugated appearance. Their "narrowing" and "flattening" indicate there was some swelling, but it is not a quantitative measurement. The weight of 1450 grams (1.45 kg) is quantitative and can be compared to other females by age and as a ratio of brain weight to overall body weight. JonBenet's body weight was measured as 45 pounds during autopsy (20.4 kilograms) so the ratio of brain weight to body weight would be 1.45/20.4 x 100 = 7.1 in the following chart (the green line indicates where JonBenet's brain should fall, and the red line shows where it actually did):

So depending on which chart you use, JonBenet's brain weighed anywhere from 20 to almost 25 percent more than average for girls her age and her weight.

Meyer's comment that the brain had a "normal overall architecture" means that he saw no asymmetry or pronounced swelling in any one area. Had he seen (or noted) localized swelling in a small area, or edema only on one lobe, it might be an indication of less time between the head blow and death. IOW, the swelling would probably begin locally at the site of impact and spread to the entire lobe, and then it would possibly spread to the other lobe. But medical/forensic books make note that the swelling response is known to be more rapid in children than in adults.

Meyer also mentions that he was unable to see any inflammation. This to me is somewhat contradictory to the other indications of a longer period of time between the head blow and death (yes, from strangulation). Inflammation is the body's response to an injury. Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of what it is and how it develops. It is not synonymous with "swelling," but swelling is one of the responses (some of them microscopic) that can develop as a result of inflammation. When Meyer wrote in the AR that he couldn't identify any inflammation, he was probably referring to the change in color associated with inflammation. It seems odd to me that since a longer period of time between the two insults should allow enough time for noticeable inflammation to develop, there was none noted on JonBenet's brain. This is one of the reasons I tend to discount that long estimation of time accepted by so many others. "No identifiable inflammation" means the body has not had sufficient time for it to develop from an injury.

What actual evidence was Mark Beckner going on when he stated the following......

Chief Mark Beckner placed more focus on the parents than he normally would. He wrote, "We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead.

The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad."

I need to know this because I am being challenged on another forum by a very rude and bombastic poster. I shouldn't really bother replying but I have to admit he's asking a question that I don't know the answer to.

Now you know much more than that idiot will ever know -- even if you take the time tell him. Please feel free to copy as much or as little as you wish of anything I write on this forum. I offer it freely to anyone who may find it helpful.

If you'd like to understand a little more about what Dr. Meyer wrote in the AR about the head injuries, you might find the following link helpful:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ll-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=9054790#post9054790

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*- patsy's rage simmering all day over john leaving for 3-4 hrs on Christmas Day. She never bought the plane clean up, prob believed he was visiting another woman. Even if he wasnt, it didnt look like he wanted to spend time with his family; Patsy being left to cope with the children alone, as usual. My opinion only.



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So... Do you think it would be wise to fly on your private plane without having thoroughly checked it first, yes or no?

 

[mandystrange70]

So... Do you think it would be wise to fly on your private plane without having thoroughly checked it first, yes or no?

If you read my post properly instead of looking for something to get at me for, you would see i was writing from Patsy's point of view.
I made a suggestion, unlikely as it was, but thinking outside of the box. Dont know why you are treating me like some sort of troll, which i am not, unless it's because i have not posted on this subject before? It's not nice - i was just trying to join in a discussion, which i thought was the point of this forum.

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[AB1]

I agree with icedteaforme
"Do you think it would be wise to fly on your private plane without having thoroughly checked it first,"
Of course, but in the middle of Christmas Day? In which case, why not choose a later flight slot on Boxing Day? They have their own plane. They have money, choices.
And wasn't much of his trip to the plane supposed to be loading presents and bags... yet there were still gifts and cases and bags everywhere when the police arrived.

So I also believe mandystrange70's depiction of
"patsy's rage simmering all day over john leaving for 3-4 hrs... being left to cope with the children alone, as usual."

And as for
"She never bought the plane clean up, prob believed he was visiting another woman"
I wondered about that too.

 

[BoldBear]

I see two sides of the coin here. I've worked jobs where I was working right up until the last minute before vacation. Setting aside a few hours on Christmas day to get something done would make sense. It was also John's family. I'd be fastidious about the condition of the plane too.

The other side of the coin is that it wasn't his plane. It belong to Lockheed Martin and he wasn't the pilot but the copilot. He didn't just do a preflight check but a cleaning (some detailing). The pilot, Mike Archuleta, would have done a preflight check as well. Can you imagine Lockheed Martin cutting corners on the maintenance of their executive's planes? This plane probably had a rigorous maintenance and cleaning schedule.

 

[Tortoise]

There is the possibility of rather a lot of JR's whereabouts and activities on Christmas Day being unaccounted for.

We have children getting them up super early to open presents. I think it varies from around 6 to 7 am. How long did they open presents for, let's say 2 hours to be very generous. That takes it to 8 - 9 am.

Then there is the pancake breakfast, preparation, eating and clearing away. Let's say 2 hours to be very generous. That takes it to 10 - 11 am.

Then they're not clear about what time they left for the White's, I think it varies between 4 and 5 pm. Let's say 4 pm, but that is likely to be on the early side, to leave for a dinner party. And John being out for 2 - 3 hours, let's give him an hour as well for showering and changing when he came back, making that 3 - 4 hours he has accounted for.

So, we have say 11 am, to 4 pm, being generous with allowances, that is 5 hours, and only 3 - 4 hours of that accounted for, so 1 - 2 hours unaccounted for, and in reality it is likely to be longer than that, with the day starting so early.

Why are they so evasive about what happened that day - there is no account of John playing with the kids and their new toys, he didn't even have time to take JonBenet around the block on her new bike. I think it points to a row or a longer unexplained absence (meeting with someone), especially with him not taking Burke with him to see the plane. He can't make up stuff that Burke could easily contradict and say never happened.

 

[k-mac]

If you read my post properly instead of looking for something to get at me for, you would see i was writing from Patsy's point of view.
I made a suggestion, unlikely as it was, but thinking outside of the box. Dont know why you are treating me like some sort of troll, which i am not, unless it's because i have not posted on this subject before? It's not nice - i was just trying to join in a discussion, which i thought was the point of this forum.

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i thought it a very valid point mandy.
you have to have thick skin around here.
its all good. believe it or not we all on the same side
you bring to the table what ever you wish or think... somebody will no doubt pick it apart because it doesnt work with their pet theory.
and thats fine!
the flip side....couldtrigger a positive connection for someone on a similar pagetoyou.
the quirkiest part of the JBR forum is i havent seen two people who are down to the wire in alignment lol
there is so much mystery that we all have different bits that agree and disagree.
please keep posting.
:loveyou:

 

[k-mac]

There is the possibility of rather a lot of JR's whereabouts and activities on Christmas Day being unaccounted for.

We have children getting them up super early to open presents. I think it varies from around 6 to 7 am. How long did they open presents for, let's say 2 hours to be very generous. That takes it to 8 - 9 am.

Then there is the pancake breakfast, preparation, eating and clearing away. Let's say 2 hours to be very generous. That takes it to 10 - 11 am.

Then they're not clear about what time they left for the White's, I think it varies between 4 and 5 pm. Let's say 4 pm, but that is likely to be on the early side, to leave for a dinner party. And John being out for 2 - 3 hours, let's give him an hour as well for showering and changing when he came back, making that 3 - 4 hours he has accounted for.

So, we have say 11 am, to 4 pm, being generous with allowances, that is 5 hours, and only 3 - 4 hours of that accounted for, so 1 - 2 hours unaccounted for, and in reality it is likely to be longer than that, with the day starting so early.

Why are they so evasive about what happened that day - there is no account of John playing with the kids and their new toys, he didn't even have time to take JonBenet around the block on her new bike. I think it points to a row or a longer unexplained absence (meeting with someone), especially with him not taking Burke with him to see the plane. He can't make up stuff that Burke could easily contradict and say never happened.

yes agreed tortoise
the funniest part i find about the evasiveness of the day is PR couldnt tell LE what they had for christmas lunch??
huh?
really?
i spend the entire year thinking about what im making for christmas lunch lol
they were going to the whites for left overs from their xmas lunch.

she is christmas mad ....filthy rich.....getting the flourist at charlivoux to fill the house with flowers and lights etc for their arrival but she doesnt prepare or have pre prepared for her a magnificient xmas spread in her home for her family???????

and JR isnt interested in being there at all.
few pics etc.....
something was definately amiss
:websleuther:

 

[mandystrange70]

i thought it a very valid point mandy.
you have to have thick skin around here.
its all good. believe it or not we all on the same side
you bring to the table what ever you wish or think... somebody will no doubt pick it apart because it doesnt work with their pet theory.
and thats fine!
the flip side....couldtrigger a positive connection for someone on a similar pagetoyou.
the quirkiest part of the JBR forum is i havent seen two people who are down to the wire in alignment lol
there is so much mystery that we all have different bits that agree and disagree.
please keep posting.
:loveyou:

I understand, the post seemed a bit abrupt! I agree the plane should be safe, but he rang the pilot to check it the following day? Cleaning the wheels instead of spending time with your children on Christmas Day, especially when away so much, doesnt gel with the impression he is trying to sell us.
Having looked after my own young children, doing all the Christmas preparations, cooking etc, whilst waiting for their father to fall out the pub so we could eat dinner, i can see Patsy could be miffed to say the least. She didnt even have to cook! As for present loading, and Patsy still wrapping that afternoon, just how many presents were they taking!

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[Tortoise]

Perhaps we should start a list of problems or indications of a potential problem, that we know about on Christmas Day.

JBR not liking her new doll
JBR not wanting to wear the red turtleneck
No photos after one or two in their pyjamas
No video recording of a happy family day, in usual matching attire
A photo of PR with red face looking like she's been crying IMO
I couldn't see the lights switched on, on the tree, but maybe that's a poor photo
No lunch, that anyone can remember
JR not playing with the children
JR not taking BR (a plane fanatic) with him to see the plane
Hours missing from his account of the day
PR still wrapping gifts but JR saying he went and loaded gifts on the plane
A missing bag of clothes for the lake, at least according to PR's account
Christmas wrapping paper from opened gifts left on the living room floor, still there next day
A planned and cancelled visit to the Fernie's

more?

Another thing, how likely is it that this wealthy woman PR dyed her own hair and didn't get it done at the hair salon? If it needed doing, why didn't she get it done before their party on 23rd, when they would be seeing so many people?

 

[Tortoise]

How long does it take to charge the battery for the video camera?

 

[AB1]

Perhaps we should start a list of problems or indications of a potential problem, that we know about on Christmas Day.

JBR not liking her new doll
JBR not wanting to wear the red turtleneck
No photos after one or two in their pyjamas
No video recording of a happy family day, in usual matching attire
A photo of PR with red face looking like she's been crying IMO
I couldn't see the lights switched on, on the tree, but maybe that's a poor photo
No lunch, that anyone can remember
JR not playing with the children
JR not taking BR (a plane fanatic) with him to see the plane
Hours missing from his account of the day
PR still wrapping gifts but JR saying he went and loaded gifts on the plane
A missing bag of clothes for the lake, at least according to PR's account
Christmas wrapping paper from opened gifts left on the living room floor, still there next day
A planned and cancelled visit to the Fernie's

more?

Another thing, how likely is it that this wealthy woman PR dyed her own hair and didn't get it done at the hair salon? If it needed doing, why didn't she get it done before their party on 23rd, when they would be seeing so many people?

BBM
Exactly.
Did BPD find the dye/rinse packaging? I have never seen any photos of PR's bathroom, only JR's.

 

[mandystrange70]

Perhaps we should start a list of problems or indications of a potential problem, that we know about on Christmas Day.

JBR not liking her new doll
JBR not wanting to wear the red turtleneck
No photos after one or two in their pyjamas
No video recording of a happy family day, in usual matching attire
A photo of PR with red face looking like she's been crying IMO
I couldn't see the lights switched on, on the tree, but maybe that's a poor photo
No lunch, that anyone can remember
JR not playing with the children
JR not taking BR (a plane fanatic) with him to see the plane
Hours missing from his account of the day
PR still wrapping gifts but JR saying he went and loaded gifts on the plane
A missing bag of clothes for the lake, at least according to PR's account
Christmas wrapping paper from opened gifts left on the living room floor, still there next day
A planned and cancelled visit to the Fernie's

more?

Another thing, how likely is it that this wealthy woman PR dyed her own hair and didn't get it done at the hair salon? If it needed doing, why didn't she get it done before their party on 23rd, when they would be seeing so many people?

How many bikes? JB and Patsy, but in some answers, also Burke. Did Patsy not try hers out? Burke was seen on a bike by Mr Barnhill, but not JB. John took her out briefly, then he regrets he didnt take her out?
JB was more interested in a jewellery making gift than the lookalike doll. JB was given a jewellery making kit by Priscilla that evening, and John was helping her.
Was Jb ill that afternoon?
Patsy would never dye her own hair - and on Christmas Day of all days? Does it look like its freshly coloured on the CNN interview, or funeral footage? Oh i think she was channelling Jackie Kennedy in a hat/veil combo if memory serves correct.
Burke putting a toy together before bed which no one can agree on what it was exactly.


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[Tortoise]

BBM
Exactly.
Did BPD find the dye/rinse packaging? I have never seen any photos of PR's bathroom, only JR's.

I don't know why but I get the feeling this was said to account for a chemical smell and I also get the feeling it was around JAR's bathroom. I must have read something at one time to make me think that.

How long does it take to dye hair? Presumably there is a time it must be left on then rinsed out and possibly a conditioner applied and then hair dried and styled afterwards. She had a lot going on that day with the neighbourhood kids in the house, supervising them, packing for the cruise, wrapping bags full of gifts...I suppose it's possible, but I think it's unlikely.

 

[mandystrange70]

How long does it take to charge the battery for the video camera?

It should also be able to run off the mains from what other people have said that theirs do

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[Tortoise]

How many bikes? JB and Patsy, but in some answers, also Burke. Did Patsy not try hers out? Burke was seen on a bike by Mr Barnhill, but not JB. John took her out briefly, then he regrets he didnt take her out?
JB was more interested in a jewellery making gift than the lookalike doll. JB was given a jewellery making kit by Priscilla that evening, and John was helping her.
Was Jb ill that afternoon?
Patsy would never dye her own hair - and on Christmas Day of all days? Does it look like its freshly coloured on the CNN interview, or funeral footage? Oh i think she was channelling Jackie Kennedy in a hat/veil combo if memory serves correct.
Burke putting a toy together before bed which no one can agree on what it was exactly.


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Oh JR remembered in 1998 that he got a bike for himself too, haven't you heard? :laughing:

 

[mandystrange70]

Oh JR remembered in 1998 that he got a bike for himself too, haven't you heard? :laughing:

OMG, no! 😂 was he spotted on it ever, maybe the intruder made his getaway on it. When Smit asked John where the bikes were, cos he hadnt seen any, John said put away in the garage. There was meant to be four, yet Smit couldnt see any (he was blinkered tho) ???

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