Questions you'd like answers to...

[SS 396 SS]

Yes, that's what I meant. I guess I should have taken it a bit further. And I should have emphasized the word "if". Do I actually think BR told PR what he had done? No.

I agree with your theory - I think PR discovered JB after BR had already strangled her, that neither PR nor JR did that, and if one of them had found her before she was strangled they would have called 911.

Sure, parents kill. But they kill outright. They don't kill just to cover up what would otherwise appear to be an accident or a sudden illness. So, unless you think PDI all (and I don't), it doesn't make sense for her to strangle JB, imo.

I still think its likely he fessed up to them about it. Who would find their child dead and not get down to the bottom of it?

 

[sedndun]

Were there not two strangulations? One that left a lower mark and then the final one that was probably meant to be staging, but was in fact what finally killed her? There are marks on her neck that have been thought of as a first attempt- that the person attempting it did not have her in a good position, moved her onto her stomach and then completed the task. There is a theory that the triangle mark could have come from her being pulled back by her shirt collar- this lower mark around her neck could be part of that same attack.

If not from the shirt, then has it been confirmed the mark was made by the same cord? What if the first was an attempt by a weaker individual using something entirely different- something that couldn't be left on the body as it would be hugely incriminating. So the cord may have been found as a replacement by a more powerful individual who applied it tightly- perhaps tighter than they even realized if the body was face down and her hair and sweater obscured her neck. If there were two strangulations by two separate people, then the second person likely believed JonBenet was already dead- finding out later that this was actually the final blow- the actual murder- would have been devastating to hear.

 

[SS 396 SS]

Were there not two strangulations? One that left a lower mark and then the final one that was probably meant to be staging, but was in fact what finally killed her? There are marks on her neck that have been thought of as a first attempt- that the person attempting it did not have her in a good position, moved her onto her stomach and then completed the task. There is a theory that the triangle mark could have come from her being pulled back by her shirt collar- this lower mark around her neck could be part of that same attack.

If not from the shirt, then has it been confirmed the mark was made by the same cord? What if the first was an attempt by a weaker individual using something entirely different- something that couldn't be left on the body as it would be hugely incriminating. So the cord may have been found as a replacement by a more powerful individual who applied it tightly- perhaps tighter than they even realized if the body was face down and her hair and sweater obscured her neck. If there were two strangulations by two separate people, then the second person likely believed JonBenet was already dead- finding out later that this was actually the final blow- the actual murder- would have been devastating to hear.

Your exactly right. There is a second mark down closer to the collar bone. I have wondered about that.

 

[Ambitioned]

I've always been slightly confused by Arndt talking about the cord being wrapped twice around her neck.

1999-09-15 (T) Linda Arndt on Good Morning America (Wed)
"Arndt: I hadn't seen savagery done to a child, or even an adult, until, uh, the doctor peeled back her scalp and, uh, saw that horrific, uh, fracture to her head. It was the length of her head.
(Voice Over) It was 8 ½ inches long.
Arndt: The doctor hadn't seen an injury like that. The doctor couldn't believe what was done to her body. Her, her head, uh, the depth of that ligature around her neck. It was so deep that twice that cord had been wrapped around her neck, and uh, and it looked like it was only one loose time around. And, um, she had trauma to her vagina, vagina.
Vargus: What kind of trauma?
Arndt: It would be trauma that would be consistent with injuries seen in sexual assault cases.
Vargus: Recently?
Arndt: What was seen was not a first-time injury."

 

[Ambitioned]

Well, he's almost 21 now so we'll know how permanent it'll be sometime between 25-27 so we're getting closer! Plus he's out of the country for the next year so that's definitely a load off.

It sucks to fee this way about one's own child but it is the reality of it. I love him with my entire being so as you can imagine, sometimes my feelings seem to complex to overcome. Therapy for 20+ years has definitely helped.

But when my son was BR's age when JB died, I was still somewhat in denial
about the reality. I imagine most families are. So I could see how JR being gone a lot on business probably kept him in the dark and my theory is that PR used the pageants as a way to keep herself and JB away from BR. It's easier to pretend it's not happening if you are around the child as little as possible.

I came across this tonight and thought it might be of interest. Clearly I don't agree with the writer's bit about intruder or the buttprint red herring but near the bottom he talks about Conduct Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder in regards to BR.

A child with psychopathic proclivities, one who might be diagnosed as manifesting symptoms of Conduct Disorder, for instance, would, I believe, be capable of committing a crime such as this—including the crushing blow to the head, the possible use of a stun gun (was a such a stun gun ever found in the home?), the slow and torturous strangulation by garrote, and the obscene sexual violation.

[h=2]Who Killed JonBenet?[/h]
Once again, thank you for sharing your story. I truly believe more and more people are aware of behavior disorders in children, thanks to you.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I came across this tonight and thought it might be of interest. Clearly I don't agree with the writer's bit about intruder or the buttprint red herring but near the bottom he talks about Conduct Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder in regards to BR.



[h=2]Who Killed JonBenet?[/h]
Once again, thank you for sharing your story. I truly believe more and more people are aware of behavior disorders in children, thanks to you.

Thanks for the link. Haven't read the full thing yet, as I'm still reeling from the fact that someone has decided to lend their "expertise" on this subject without bothering to research enough to find out that there was no stun gun! Butt they bought the butt print defense so they can't be too bright anyway.

It's always fascinating how little research any Ramsey defender puts into their defense before publishing it. As an armchair detective I spent months reading everything I could about this case (and I continue to research as best I can) before making any comments on a message board where any idiot can share their opinion, yet there are so-called professionals getting paid to publish ill-informed clickbait articles who clearly spent ten minutes on google, found a few old articles about Lou Smit's intruder theory, and ran with it. It'd be funny if it weren't so infuriating.

Edit: I guess I shouldn't classify this writer as a "Ramsey defender" without having read the full article, it's just that the butt print/stun gun nonsense set me off on a tangent because this lack of case knowledge is par for the course with basically any article about the case that isn't written by the usual group of journalists who cover it (Charlie Brennen, Carol McKinley, Alan Pendergrast, etc) and that really bothers me.

 

[kanzz]

I've always been slightly confused by Arndt talking about the cord being wrapped twice around her neck.

1999-09-15 (T) Linda Arndt on Good Morning America (Wed)
"Arndt: I hadn't seen savagery done to a child, or even an adult, until, uh, the doctor peeled back her scalp and, uh, saw that horrific, uh, fracture to her head. It was the length of her head.
(Voice Over) It was 8 ½ inches long.
Arndt: The doctor hadn't seen an injury like that. The doctor couldn't believe what was done to her body. Her, her head, uh, the depth of that ligature around her neck. It was so deep that twice that cord had been wrapped around her neck, and uh, and it looked like it was only one loose time around. And, um, she had trauma to her vagina, vagina.
Vargus: What kind of trauma?
Arndt: It would be trauma that would be consistent with injuries seen in sexual assault cases.
Vargus: Recently?
Arndt: What was seen was not a first-time injury."

Linda Arndt is a drama queen who was out of her league and freaked out as soon as she realized she had impaired the case with her ineptitude. She embellished at every opportunity.

 

[sedndun]

To those who wonder how a parent could tighten the cord around their own (even if they thought her already dead) daughter's neck so garishly tight, keep in mind that a body does swell after death. If there are any medical professionals here, then maybe they can elaborate, but I'm thinking the cord around the neck possibly looks worse in the photos than it did when it was first applied.
Staging such a thing is awful enough, but I think anyone who has seen the pictures believes that only pure malice could have driven someone to tighten it so much- much more than would have been necessary. If swelling caused the cord to dig in deeper, then the one who applied it may not have gone to the extent that has been assumed.

 

[kanzz]

To those who wonder how a parent could tighten the cord around their own (even if they thought her already dead) daughter's neck so garishly tight, keep in mind that a body does swell after death. If there are any medical professionals here, then maybe they can elaborate, but I'm thinking the cord around the neck possibly looks worse in the photos than it did when it was first applied.
Staging such a thing is awful enough, but I think anyone who has seen the pictures believes that only pure malice could have driven someone to tighten it so much- much more than would have been necessary. If swelling caused the cord to dig in deeper, then the one who applied it may not have gone to the extent that has been assumed.

RN for 37 years, and here's what I think (off the top of my head) - there wouldn't be any swelling post-mortem because the heart has stopped circulating blood. This isn't the same thing as when we have something tight around an extremity or a digit. The reason that causes swelling is due to circulation. It's a tourniquet effect. Once a person dies and circulation has stopped, this doesn't happen.
I didn't research this and I could be wrong. I'll look tomorrow. It's late. But for now -
I totally believe this strangulation was every bit as vicious as it appears and that the ligature was applied forcefully and deeply. However, it wouldn't have taken a great deal of strength with an unconscious 48# child. Of course it was pure malice - it was a strangulation. But I do not think it was staging. It was murder. And I think BDI.

 

[sedndun]

RN for 37 years, and here's what I think (off the top of my head) - there wouldn't be any swelling post-mortem because the heart has stopped circulating blood. This isn't the same thing as when we have something tight around an extremity or a digit. The reason that causes swelling is due to circulation. It's a tourniquet effect. Once a person dies and circulation has stopped, this doesn't happen.
I didn't research this and I could be wrong. I'll look tomorrow. It's late. But for now -
I totally believe this strangulation was every bit as vicious as it appears and that the ligature was applied forcefully and deeply. However, it wouldn't have taken a great deal of strength with an unconscious 48# child. Of course it was pure malice - it was a strangulation. But I do not think it was staging. It was murder. And I think BDI.

Thanks for your response, but two points for clarity:
By staging I didn't mean that this was done after the girl had passed- only that the person tightening the cord may have thought she had. The heart would have been beating, though at a much slower rate due to the head blow.
What I'm more trying to get at is how the neck appears in the photos. Strangulation and death is thought to have taken place around midnight. The body was brought up after 1:00. The photos were taken that night I believe, so over 18 hours may have passed since death. Would there not be swelling of the body by then from decomposition, gasses in the body, trapped fluids, etc?
Thanks for any input you may have.

 

[sedndun]

One last horrible thought before bed:
I'll take the professional's opinion that those marks around the neck would are not from fingernails, but part of what happens to the skin during strangulation.
Still, this gets brought up often and many believe it was JonBenet grasping for life.
What if the ligature was applied as part of staging, using the paintbrush to keep it on tight. The girl is assumed dead, but maybe there is a response at the point of her actual death in the form of a gasp or convulsion. At the very least her bladder gives out. If it were a parent committing this act, then they panic- oh god, she's not dead. But they struggle to remove the garrote- it's too twisted, their panicked fingers too clumsy. Lastly they try to loosen the cord, grabbing futilely at her throat, leaving marks about the neck where their fingernails pulled at the skin.
Not something I believe, just another take on a theory that keeps popping up.

 

[BoldBear]

One last horrible thought before bed:
I'll take the professional's opinion that those marks around the neck would are not from fingernails, but part of what happens to the skin during strangulation.
Still, this gets brought up often and many believe it was JonBenet grasping for life.
What if the ligature was applied as part of staging, using the paintbrush to keep it on tight. The girl is assumed dead, but maybe there is a response at the point of her actual death in the form of a gasp or convulsion. At the very least her bladder gives out. If it were a parent committing this act, then they panic- oh god, she's not dead. But they struggle to remove the garrote- it's too twisted, their panicked fingers too clumsy. Lastly they try to loosen the cord, grabbing futilely at her throat, leaving marks about the neck where their fingernails pulled at the skin.
Not something I believe, just another take on a theory that keeps popping up.

I'm with you on the first half; although, I believe the staging started with the sexual molestation as a cover. Just imagine that there was no ransom note--the body was found in the basement exactly as it was. As a sex crime goes, it's incomplete. The murderer had a nightie, a blanket and a secret room. Why redress her? Why not just put her in the nightie? Why stop at digital penetration? That seems timid for someone who knows they're going to kill her. And this person dressed her before wrapping her up in a blanket. Why not just wrap-up her naked body in the blanket and be out of there? Why? Because this person intended to take her out of the house but changed plans. And if this person was planning to take her out of the house, why not take her to another location and then sexually abuse her?

I don't believe she was conscious when she was strangled. They checked her fingernails. I don't recall any busing on her arms indicating a struggle.

I know the mechanics of this murder but I'm still trying to grasp the 'why?'

 

[digginin]

I would say it was rather a vulgar way of staging a murder cover up. JR look CCC cool calm and collective - no visible "pain" whatsoever. yes really a cool cat. I don't care what who say...he knew at the end. I believe the first police lady "ARNDT". She said that at a certain moment she really knew... and thought about her revolver. He helped who or whatever the situation was then. I read a lot of these comments and sometimes you pick up something you just overlooked. Shame... JB's body was lying there for hours. Bloody cruel if you ask me. Why was she not removed earlier. From the previous night - till night time the next day. HEARTLESS MAN HEARTLESS. You are in the house while your child is decomposing under the Christmas tree. The fact that JR just covered her up with what he could find, even a sweater landed on her, shows me that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES THEY WANTED TO BE REMINDED OF THE STORY. A member of our family passed away sadly. We were in shock. The body was removed as soon as possible but we took time in the morgue to feel and touch him. Up to today certain things and songs end up in us crying. Even today after 35 years, speaking of him bring tears to our eyes. This is just so unnatural. In both MMCnn and JBR there is just NO TEARS TODAY. Christmas remind me of my father. I still cry when I hear Silent Night. I am nearly 70 and he passed away in 1977 only 55 years old. Come on, BR surely has a memory and a heart? So does JR no emotions are a big NO NO!

 

[Miz Adventure]

I still think its likely he fessed up to them about it. Who would find their child dead and not get down to the bottom of it?

He wouldn't have needed to fess up to his parents. They knew that their son was the only one who COULD have done it.

It would be interesting to know where BR was, and exactly what he was doing, when the parents found JBR's body. Would he have been hiding?

We'll probably never know the smaller details. Maybe we'll never truly know the bigger details for sure either.

 

[kanzz]

Thanks for your response, but two points for clarity:
By staging I didn't mean that this was done after the girl had passed- only that the person tightening the cord may have thought she had. The heart would have been beating, though at a much slower rate due to the head blow.
What I'm more trying to get at is how the neck appears in the photos. Strangulation and death is thought to have taken place around midnight. The body was brought up after 1:00. The photos were taken that night I believe, so over 18 hours may have passed since death. Would there not be swelling of the body by then from decomposition, gasses in the body, trapped fluids, etc?
Thanks for any input you may have.

I did understand that you didn't use the word "staging" to imply that the strangulation was done after JonBenet had died. But I do not see how the killer might have thought she was dead. I'll never believe that.

There were signs of life, no matter how faint her pulse might or might not have been. She did not appear to be dead even though she was unconscious. She was still breathing.

Denial is the first and immediate human response to tragedy, even if it is fleeting. I will never believe that a parent thought an unconscious child was a dead child, especially when there were zero outward signs of injury.

Swelling had not yet begun and does not start that soon, especially in a cool environment like a concrete basement floor. It would typically take approximately 3 days. We can tell that she was not swelling by looking at the photos of her fingers.

Stages of decomposition. Scholarly articles for information about human corpses in a controlled environment (cool basement) were hard to find. The best I can do is to give you some generic info about the timeline.

"During the first stage, called the fresh stage, usually lasting a day or two, the body doesn't change much outwardly, but chemicals released during cellular death begin to attract flies. The second stage begins when the body begins to swell and is called putrefaction or the bloated stage."
http://classroom.synonym.com/stages-human-decomposition-process-13013.html

This book explains the "Decomposition Staging Scale". (you might need to scroll down a bit)
http://tinyurl.com/gkrl22v

 

[Miz Adventure]

Come on, BR surely has a memory and a heart? So does JR no emotions are a big NO NO!

BR may be a sociopath or possibly have some other kind of disorder where he doesn't have to hide his feelings because, basically, he has no empathy with other people.

As for JR - he is used to being in control of situations. He had already gotten over the initial shock of knowing his daughter was dead so was (presumably) able to look calmer than he probably felt when he answered the door to Det. Arndt. Maybe he went a bit too far with his nonchalant attitude?

Maybe he thought Patsy was doing enough of the histrionics for both of them?

 

[kanzz]

I came across this tonight and thought it might be of interest. Clearly I don't agree with the writer's bit about intruder or the buttprint red herring but near the bottom he talks about Conduct Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder in regards to BR.

A child with psychopathic proclivities, one who might be diagnosed as manifesting symptoms of Conduct Disorder, for instance, would, I believe, be capable of committing a crime such as this—including the crushing blow to the head, the possible use of a stun gun (was a such a stun gun ever found in the home?), the slow and torturous strangulation by garrote, and the obscene sexual violation.

Who Killed JonBenet?

Once again, thank you for sharing your story. I truly believe more and more people are aware of behavior disorders in children, thanks to you.

Thanks for posting this. After reading it, I couldn't resist. I went to his contact page and wrote a long critique of his piece.

I'd like to invite all of you to do the same:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/experts/stephen-diamond-phd

eta: I especially criticized him for using Mary Lacy as a reference and told him that it decreased his credibility.

 

[Ambitioned]

Oh I plan to!! I didn't get around to it last night or today. I am doing it tonight for sure.

It's mostly erroneous and psychobabble but I did find this bit interesting:

But that degree of aberration in a boy of nine would, fortunately for us all, be relatively rare, though studies suggest that the incidence of Conduct Disorder is on the rise, occurring in anywhere from 1-10 percent of the general population, mainly in males.

He said relatively rare, not impossible.

 

[kanzz]

Oh I plan to!! I didn't get around to it last night or today. I am doing it tonight for sure.

It's mostly erroneous and psychobabble but I did find this bit interesting:

He said relatively rare, not impossible.

Right!? He basically starts to build a case about why it could have been Burke, and then he drops it like a hot potato in the next paragraph when he again talks about Mary Lacy and her bogus exoneration. gah!
:gaah:

 

[Laughing]

Right!? He basically starts to build a case about why it could have been Burke, and then he drops it like a hot potato in the next paragraph when he again talks about Mary Lacy and her bogus exoneration. gah!
:gaah:

Perhaps he checked his bank balance & chose not to risk the $750,000....