Questions you'd like answers to...

[icedtea4me]

singularity,

Well I'm with you on thinking stuff happened in JonBenet's bedroom or another room, etc.

Also I tend to draw the line if what I'm speculating on does not fit in with surrounding items.


If you contrast the two photos one bed is a mess the other is neat and tidy, how so?

So I got to thinking, after re-reading Patsy's interview again, then looking at the photos, Hey JonBenet should be in the bed with the lamp next to it? Like Patsy buys size-12's for her niece but gives them to JonBenet and she buys a new bedside lamp for JonBenet's room but puts it next to the guest bed, what is going on?

One proviso is that it could all be coincidence and the tidy bed is JonBenet's, except on Christmas night she was in what became the messy bed.

Yes it could be JAR's room has been staged or it might simply represent unfinished business, e.g. a prior staging now abandoned.

If you accept JonBenet made it to her bed, e.g. her hair was dressed for bed, then stuff happened in/on her bed. I'm thinking the other bed was used to lay JonBenet out on, clean her up, redress her etc? This results in this bed becoming messy, untidy and a dump of unintended forensic evidence, e.g. bloodstained pillow?

So eventually the bed JonBenet had intended to sleep in was made up, her doll was placed on it, along with some of her clothes, so to give a nice authentic domestic feel. Outside of a homicide scenario this need not apply.

I can definitely see Patsy's hand at work here.


Yes, for some on the fence it can help to highlight that some aspects of her bedroom might have been staged, e.g. the messy bed should not really look like that if an intruder snuck into JonBenet's room and lifted her from her bed, how come all the mess, just on one bed of course? I'm suggesting this might result from an abandonded prior staging, e.g. removal of evidential items, then re-arranging stuff to look a random mess, e.g. pillow. pink top, and duvet askew, why?


Sure, but it does look as if this is the bed JonBenet normally slept in?

A preliminary conclusion is that JonBenet's bedroom alike the wine-cellar has been staged, not a surprise if you want to backup your RN !

I'll drop this in here as it illuminates some recent discussions:
John Ramsey, Boulder Police Department Interview 1998, excerpt


So John is asked directly about the longjohns and he says he saw them, but nobody mentions they belong to Burke Ramsey, proverbial flap aside.

My take is BPD have twigged to JonBenet wearing Burke's longjohns, and think it is significant?

25 MIKE KANE: I am not talking pajama

0693

1 bottoms, I am talking about longjohns that are

2 just, you know, like the proverbial flap on

3 back.

You omitted the word back because...?

 

[UKGuy]

25 MIKE KANE: I am not talking pajama

0693

1 bottoms, I am talking about longjohns that are

2 just, you know, like the proverbial flap on

3 back.

You omitted the word back because...?

icedtea4me,
Because I'm making an inference from the interview, so presume others can do the same, also I was being lazy on my mouse selection , LOL.

What matters is what was not said or described, and we had to wait from 1998 until the release of the crime-shot photos to find out !

 

[singularity]

Like Patsy buys size-12's for her niece but gives them to JonBenet and she buys a new bedside lamp for JonBenet's room but puts it next to the guest bed, what is going on?


So John is asked directly about the longjohns and he says he saw them, but nobody mentions they belong to Burke Ramsey, proverbial flap aside.

My take is BPD have twigged to JonBenet wearing Burke's longjohns, and think it is significant?

Damn UK. Did you really have to bring up the size 12s and the longjohns again? THey weren't necessary in this discussion. They're not necessary in most discussions. I sometimes forget that BDI has to stick to longjohns, size 12s, poopy pants, and pineapple. The case has been reduced to such few items it's not even worth discussing anymore.

I give up. BDI can have its echo chamber that it craves. I'm no lomger discussing it in the open. Stick to private messages and emails.

You did take the time to write that so I'll respond to a few things mentioned.

Also I tend to draw the line if what I'm speculating on does not fit in with surrounding items.

As far as the beds go, it all fits in. There's really nothing that appears out of place on her beds. One is messy, the other isn't.

If you contrast the two photos one bed is a mess the other is neat and tidy, how so?

If one child sleeps in a room containing two beds, it's going to be the same. One will always be a mess(unless their mom's a drill sergeant), the other either ready for a friend/cousin sleepover or the child to switch beds.

We've also heard the story of John reading to her. Patsy could just as easily do this too. They could sit or lay down on that bed and read to her for a few minutes. Likely? Maybe not....but it's possible.

Hey JonBenet should be in the bed with the lamp next to it?

Because the lamp is six inches closer to the other bed?

If you accept JonBenet made it to her bed, e.g. her hair was dressed for bed, then stuff happened in/on her bed. I'm thinking the other bed was used to lay JonBenet out on, clean her up, redress her etc? This results in this bed becoming messy, untidy and a dump of unintended forensic evidence, e.g. bloodstained pillow?

Why cant these things just happen in her regular bed? Why confuse the issue to such an extent? I don't see how it helps anything. Why create such a ruse when LE can easily find out the truth?



It's like "We killed our daughter. Patsy, lets move her over to this bed and pretend her real bed isn't really her bed. That'll fool em!!"

It doesn't make sense.


It's her bed. Period.

So eventually the bed JonBenet had intended to sleep in was made up, her doll was placed on it, along with some of her clothes, so to give a nice authentic domestic feel. Outside of a homicide scenario this need not apply.

I can definitely see Patsy's hand at work here.

Wow. How many sharks can you jump?

Sure, but it does look as if this is the bed JonBenet normally slept in?

While the room itself overall does appear to have had some sort of dispute occur, the actual beds themselves look like any other kid's bedroom that contains two beds. The main bed a complete mess and the other tidy with items like the Santa bear.

Yes, for some on the fence it can help to highlight that some aspects of her bedroom might have been staged, e.g. the messy bed should not really look like that if an intruder snuck into JonBenet's room and lifted her from her bed, how come all the mess, just on one bed of course? I'm suggesting this might result from an abandonded prior staging, e.g. removal of evidential items, then re-arranging stuff to look a random mess, e.g. pillow. pink top, and duvet askew, why?

Now you're speculating that the messy bed is a staged bed where they wiped her, redressed her, etc. and the clean bed is also staged but at the same time was the bed she actually slept in?!?

Once again....we're encountering my main problem with BDI. The constant focus on minor items like size 12s, longjohns, poopy pants, pineapple, and bicycles while many areas of the case go ignored. Now we're getting into things like her other bed being the bed she slept in even though there's nothing to indicate this is true.

I cant watch the dog and pony show where we dance around a herd of elephants in the room anymore. I just cant. This has always been such a unique, fascinating, and complex case and to see it reduced to a handful of items for the sake of one theory is ridiculous.

Its not meant as a dig towards you. You were always one of my favorite WS members. BDI has simply been run into the ground and the low level of activity in this section(and its getting worse) is a sign of how many have tired of it.

Our little exchange here is one example. We could've had a discussion on the aspects of staging/unstaging in all these rooms and branched out from there but instead we have to get reminded of the long johns again.....and we all know EXACTLY why it was mentioned and where its taking us. You made sure to end that post with a mention of Burke. We know why. Its because discussion was on the verge of getting away from Burke/longjohns. BDI cant allow that to happen.

Like I said, I'm done.

I talk to certain people about the case in private messages/email. I'll still do that of course and if there's anyone else reading this section(even lurkers) who stumble upon my posts and want to ask/discuss something and its not about the 24/7 discussion of pineapple, pillows, and poopy pants, feel free to send me a message.

 

[k-mac]

Damn UK. Did you really have to bring up the size 12s and the longjohns again? THey weren't necessary in this discussion. They're not necessary in most discussions. I sometimes forget that BDI has to stick to longjohns, size 12s, poopy pants, and pineapple. The case has been reduced to such few items it's not even worth discussing anymore.

I give up. BDI can have its echo chamber that it craves. I'm no lomger discussing it in the open. Stick to private messages and emails.

You did take the time to write that so I'll respond to a few things mentioned.

As far as the beds go, it all fits in. There's really nothing that appears out of place on her beds. One is messy, the other isn't.


If one child sleeps in a room containing two beds, it's going to be the same. One will always be a mess(unless their mom's a drill sergeant), the other either ready for a friend/cousin sleepover or the child to switch beds.

We've also heard the story of John reading to her. Patsy could just as easily do this too. They could sit or lay down on that bed and read to her for a few minutes. Likely? Maybe not....but it's possible.

Because the lamp is six inches closer to the other bed?

Why cant these things just happen in her regular bed? Why confuse the issue to such an extent? I don't see how it helps anything. Why create such a ruse when LE can easily find out the truth?



It's like "We killed our daughter. Patsy, lets move her over to this bed and pretend her real bed isn't really her bed. That'll fool em!!"

It doesn't make sense.


It's her bed. Period.

Wow. How many sharks can you jump?


While the room itself overall does appear to have had some sort of dispute occur, the actual beds themselves look like any other kid's bedroom that contains two beds. The main bed a complete mess and the other tidy with items like the Santa bear.



Now you're speculating that the messy bed is a staged bed where they wiped her, redressed her, etc. and the clean bed is also staged but at the same time was the bed she actually slept in?!?

Once again....we're encountering my main problem with BDI. The constant focus on minor items like size 12s, longjohns, poopy pants, pineapple, and bicycles while many areas of the case go ignored. Now we're getting into things like her other bed being the bed she slept in even though there's nothing to indicate this is true.

I cant watch the dog and pony show where we dance around a herd of elephants in the room anymore. I just cant. This has always been such a unique, fascinating, and complex case and to see it reduced to a handful of items for the sake of one theory is ridiculous.

Its not meant as a dig towards you. You were always one of my favorite WS members. BDI has simply been run into the ground and the low level of activity in this section(and its getting worse) is a sign of how many have tired of it.

Our little exchange here is one example. We could've had a discussion on the aspects of staging/unstaging in all these rooms and branched out from there but instead we have to get reminded of the long johns again.....and we all know EXACTLY why it was mentioned and where its taking us. You made sure to end that post with a mention of Burke. We know why. Its because discussion was on the verge of getting away from Burke/longjohns. BDI cant allow that to happen.

Like I said, I'm done.

I talk to certain people about the case in private messages/email. I'll still do that of course and if there's anyone else reading this section(even lurkers) who stumble upon my posts and want to ask/discuss something and its not about the 24/7 discussion of pineapple, pillows, and poopy pants, feel free to send me a message.

:banghead::banghead::notgood::stormingmad:

these posts break my heart......
for god sake cant something be done about all of this????
your such a wonderful contributer singularity to jonbenet forum.
we cant just surrender!!!

moderators......please look at this forum.

 

[Tadpole12]

ty for pics Cottonstar

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is the object below the pillow an art project or
is it a photograph

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

is it a cut off from an insulated panel
set a top plumbing parts?

 

[Tadpole12]

ty singularity
for the invitation

 

[TeaTime]

ty for pics Cottonstar


Is the object below the pillow an art project or
is it a photograph



is it a cut off from an insulated panel
set a top plumbing parts?

This one is a cigar box on top of two paint cans stacked one on the other.

I've never seen the other one. But it looks like is could be something from the photographer or other investigator.

 

[DeDee]

I cannot understand being able to move JB's dead body multiple times due to the scientific medical process of lividity. Lividity, in short, is the gravitation of blood forming after the heart stops beating. Lividity is the deoxygenated blood that begins to settle shortly after death, within 30 minutes, is my understanding.

If JB was moved multiple times, especially during the process of lividity, the ME would recognize this during the autopsy.

If the head wound came first, JBs heart was still beating to allow oxygenated blood to flow to her vital organs. Feet and hands are not vital to survival, for example; whereas, the kidneys, liver, lungs, brain and heart are vital areas the oxygenated blood would flow to first. Perhaps, she could have been moved a bit during this critical time before lividity began forming.

If JB was thrown or pushed against a hard surface, one hard enough to fracture her skull 8", it seems to me, it would have also broken her neck or cervical area of the spine. This is why I don't think she was hit against a hard surface. I also believe she was completely dressed, in her TOD apparel, when the strangulation occurred in the basement. Then, immediately, slipped from the basement hallway into the WC.

IOW, the parents could not find her in the hallway dead, then, hours later, dressed or moved into the wine cellar. jmo

Disclaimer: I do not hold a PhD except the one bestowed upon me in an online IQ quiz.

otg, sorry you are experiencing flooding conditions which must be repaired. May the progression be swift and hassle free.

 

[archieil]

I have seen autopsy explanations regarding changing position of the body.

I am somewhat sure she was killed near winecellar, wrapped in the blanket in the laundry and placed in the winecellar at the end.

I doubt few minutes walk in the basement with a body carried on hands would be visible in the autopsy made.

 

[Cottonstar]

ty for pics Cottonstar


Is the object below the pillow an art project or
is it a photograph



is it a cut off from an insulated panel
set a top plumbing parts?

tadpole,
The photo is just another shot of this photo:

Here is another view:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Userid]

Obviously I'm in the group that believes the initial attack took place on the 2nd floor in Jonbenet's room and may have progressed into JAR's room(or vice versa).

Having said that, if we consider the helter skelter nature of these various rooms as mere staging, where do we draw the line? Are the trinkets on the floor staging or is does it signify a child at play who was interrupted? Was the trophy just tossed without much thought or did it get thrown during a dispute? List goes on.

What do you see on that bed that makes you believe it is staging, her body moved to the basement, and then "dispersed flotsam"?

IMO...the condition of JAR's room (on the surface) does not show any typical signs of staging. It shows someone interrupted, we see a sense of urgency with drawers pulled out, etc. Or do you consider these things to potentially be a form of staging? Now the moving of items from his room down into the hellhole would technically be staging but why not more cleanup after the fact? Shut the closet, shut the drawers, tidy up that bed, etc.


Like I said, where does the line get drawn and more importantly, why?


THis isn't really all that surprising. That bed was rarely slept in.

That is a huge leap. For the sake of this conversation let's say you're right. Does it really change anything?

Yes there are but also note that if you are going to place a few books in that spot, that's the only place they will fit.

Agree.

The fact the books are found on that bed really doesn't set off any bells for me. If you were a parent, you would read those books from the un-used bed when putting your daughter to bed and reading her a bed-time story.

When exactly was the "boyfriends" note put on the bed (I know it was put there after she was found, but when exactly; does anyone know?), and why was it placed there (of all places)? I'm assuming it was placed there (along with that weird school photo) because it was found in the immediate vicinity of her bed.

 

[Userid]

singularity,

If you contrast the two photos one bed is a mess the other is neat and tidy, how so?

So I got to thinking, after re-reading Patsy's interview again, then looking at the photos, Hey JonBenet should be in the bed with the lamp next to it? Like Patsy buys size-12's for her niece but gives them to JonBenet and she buys a new bedside lamp for JonBenet's room but puts it next to the guest bed, what is going on?

Wasn't her TV (in the closet) positioned in front of the messy bed? I'm asking because you would think she would regularly occupy the bed closest to the TV.

 

[Userid]

Damn UK. Did you really have to bring up the size 12s and the longjohns again? THey weren't necessary in this discussion. They're not necessary in most discussions. I sometimes forget that BDI has to stick to longjohns, size 12s, poopy pants, and pineapple. The case has been reduced to such few items it's not even worth discussing anymore.

I give up. BDI can have its echo chamber that it craves. I'm no lomger discussing it in the open. Stick to private messages and emails.

You did take the time to write that so I'll respond to a few things mentioned.

As far as the beds go, it all fits in. There's really nothing that appears out of place on her beds. One is messy, the other isn't.


If one child sleeps in a room containing two beds, it's going to be the same. One will always be a mess(unless their mom's a drill sergeant), the other either ready for a friend/cousin sleepover or the child to switch beds.

We've also heard the story of John reading to her. Patsy could just as easily do this too. They could sit or lay down on that bed and read to her for a few minutes. Likely? Maybe not....but it's possible.

Because the lamp is six inches closer to the other bed?

Why cant these things just happen in her regular bed? Why confuse the issue to such an extent? I don't see how it helps anything. Why create such a ruse when LE can easily find out the truth?



It's like "We killed our daughter. Patsy, lets move her over to this bed and pretend her real bed isn't really her bed. That'll fool em!!"

It doesn't make sense.


It's her bed. Period.

Wow. How many sharks can you jump?


While the room itself overall does appear to have had some sort of dispute occur, the actual beds themselves look like any other kid's bedroom that contains two beds. The main bed a complete mess and the other tidy with items like the Santa bear.



Now you're speculating that the messy bed is a staged bed where they wiped her, redressed her, etc. and the clean bed is also staged but at the same time was the bed she actually slept in?!?

Once again....we're encountering my main problem with BDI. The constant focus on minor items like size 12s, longjohns, poopy pants, pineapple, and bicycles while many areas of the case go ignored. Now we're getting into things like her other bed being the bed she slept in even though there's nothing to indicate this is true.

I cant watch the dog and pony show where we dance around a herd of elephants in the room anymore. I just cant. This has always been such a unique, fascinating, and complex case and to see it reduced to a handful of items for the sake of one theory is ridiculous.

Its not meant as a dig towards you. You were always one of my favorite WS members. BDI has simply been run into the ground and the low level of activity in this section(and its getting worse) is a sign of how many have tired of it.

Our little exchange here is one example. We could've had a discussion on the aspects of staging/unstaging in all these rooms and branched out from there but instead we have to get reminded of the long johns again.....and we all know EXACTLY why it was mentioned and where its taking us. You made sure to end that post with a mention of Burke. We know why. Its because discussion was on the verge of getting away from Burke/longjohns. BDI cant allow that to happen.

Like I said, I'm done.

I talk to certain people about the case in private messages/email. I'll still do that of course and if there's anyone else reading this section(even lurkers) who stumble upon my posts and want to ask/discuss something and its not about the 24/7 discussion of pineapple, pillows, and poopy pants, feel free to send me a message.

I hope you don't leave the forum, I really like your posts. I know it's frustrating.

 

[Userid]

That photo is just strange to me. Is that even JBR in that photo? It just looks like three random school children; two of which are dancing or something. I suppose the boy (first child from left) could be a younger BR, but who knows. I wonder what is on those other pieces of paper...

And what is the deal with that strange symbol sticking out of that black folder near the top of the page? It almost looks like a vertical eyeball with 3 eyelashes coming out from the corner of the eye.

 

[Tortoise]

That's Tweety Pie

 

[UKGuy]

Damn UK. Did you really have to bring up the size 12s and the longjohns again? THey weren't necessary in this discussion. They're not necessary in most discussions. I sometimes forget that BDI has to stick to longjohns, size 12s, poopy pants, and pineapple. The case has been reduced to such few items it's not even worth discussing anymore.

I give up. BDI can have its echo chamber that it craves. I'm no lomger discussing it in the open. Stick to private messages and emails.

You did take the time to write that so I'll respond to a few things mentioned.

As far as the beds go, it all fits in. There's really nothing that appears out of place on her beds. One is messy, the other isn't.


If one child sleeps in a room containing two beds, it's going to be the same. One will always be a mess(unless their mom's a drill sergeant), the other either ready for a friend/cousin sleepover or the child to switch beds.

We've also heard the story of John reading to her. Patsy could just as easily do this too. They could sit or lay down on that bed and read to her for a few minutes. Likely? Maybe not....but it's possible.

Because the lamp is six inches closer to the other bed?

Why cant these things just happen in her regular bed? Why confuse the issue to such an extent? I don't see how it helps anything. Why create such a ruse when LE can easily find out the truth?



It's like "We killed our daughter. Patsy, lets move her over to this bed and pretend her real bed isn't really her bed. That'll fool em!!"

It doesn't make sense.


It's her bed. Period.

Wow. How many sharks can you jump?


While the room itself overall does appear to have had some sort of dispute occur, the actual beds themselves look like any other kid's bedroom that contains two beds. The main bed a complete mess and the other tidy with items like the Santa bear.



Now you're speculating that the messy bed is a staged bed where they wiped her, redressed her, etc. and the clean bed is also staged but at the same time was the bed she actually slept in?!?

Once again....we're encountering my main problem with BDI. The constant focus on minor items like size 12s, longjohns, poopy pants, pineapple, and bicycles while many areas of the case go ignored. Now we're getting into things like her other bed being the bed she slept in even though there's nothing to indicate this is true.

I cant watch the dog and pony show where we dance around a herd of elephants in the room anymore. I just cant. This has always been such a unique, fascinating, and complex case and to see it reduced to a handful of items for the sake of one theory is ridiculous.

Its not meant as a dig towards you. You were always one of my favorite WS members. BDI has simply been run into the ground and the low level of activity in this section(and its getting worse) is a sign of how many have tired of it.

Our little exchange here is one example. We could've had a discussion on the aspects of staging/unstaging in all these rooms and branched out from there but instead we have to get reminded of the long johns again.....and we all know EXACTLY why it was mentioned and where its taking us. You made sure to end that post with a mention of Burke. We know why. Its because discussion was on the verge of getting away from Burke/longjohns. BDI cant allow that to happen.

Like I said, I'm done.

I talk to certain people about the case in private messages/email. I'll still do that of course and if there's anyone else reading this section(even lurkers) who stumble upon my posts and want to ask/discuss something and its not about the 24/7 discussion of pineapple, pillows, and poopy pants, feel free to send me a message.

singularity,
Lets hope you hang around, your posts always make good points, which I enjoy reading.

The additional stuff about the longjohns was intended as a neutral inclusion, it actually backs up PDI since JR parrots what Patsy said.

It will be interesting to see where the TV was situated, although like the placement of the bedside lamp it might just be arbitrary, and contingent on JonBenet's mood?

I'm fairly certain that the bedroom crime-scene has been staged, how much, e.g. 70% , 90%?

We think that some items are missing from the bedroom crime-scene, e.g. size-6 underwear and the pink pajama bottoms. So there has been an effort to elude forensic scrutiny, and it looks as if at least 50% has been staged?

So what we see on the messy bed is precisely what Patsy and John want us to see, its an another aspect that runs in tandem with the Ramsom Note.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Wasn't her TV (in the closet) positioned in front of the messy bed? I'm asking because you would think she would regularly occupy the bed closest to the TV.

Userid,

I'm not certain where the closet was, but here is a photo:

[JonBenet's Bedroom Closet]
The National Enquirer
JonBenet's Closet

1999 February 18 - Lawrence Schillers book, "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

Page 82:

"JonBenet's closet was stuffed with clothes. A small TV set with a built-in VCR sat on a shelf inside her closet. Other shelves had dozens of cartoon and Shirley Temple videos. To the right of the closet stood a pageant trophy as tall as the light switch. Another tropny was even taller. There was a floor-to-ceiling Christmas tree in the room too. In her bathroom hung an original pastel, called 'Tea for Two' by a Boulder artist."

Patsy commented that JBR had a VHS player in her room and loved to watch Shirley Temple movies over and over again. It was the Paughs who got JonBenet watching Shirley Temple tapes, likely schooling for the pageants?

.

 

[UKGuy]

tadpole,
The photo is just another shot of this photo:

Here is another view:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cottonstar,
Those photos showng the script could have come from anywhere, even off her bedroom floor? Why would JonBenet need to be writing stuff like that. She had no penpal, writing letters at 5-years old is a stretch, I'n on the fence as to whether its staged?

It certainly seems out of place, also that reference to Boyfriends. Could be remnants from a prior staging?

.

 

[Userid]

That's Tweety Pie

Wow, it is -- good call. That solves that mystery.

 

[Userid]

Userid,

I'm not certain where the closet was, but here is a photo:

Patsy commented that JBR had a VHS player in her room and loved to watch Shirley Temple movies over and over again. It was the Paughs who got JonBenet watching Shirley Temple tapes, likely schooling for the pageants?

.

The TV is in the closet that is directly in front of the messy bed, at 6:40 in the video from the following link: http://radaronline.com/videos/jon-benet-ramsey-murder-crime-scene-video/