Questions

[Shylock]

Not even the molestation can be described as brutal.

The molestation is best described as "child-like"...What you would expect from a 10 year old playing doctor.

IMO

 

[K777angel]

I've often felt the lack of extreme measures common in other such crimes against young girls indicates that the intruder merely wanted to 'add insult to injury' and give the police a red-herring by making it appear to be a molestation crime, rather than just murder.

His time and effort was in the garotte and its use. Thats what he enjoyed!

Rubbish Toth. The sexual abuse of JonBenet was attempted to be HIDDEN!!
This wasn't something done to her with the purpose of adding "insult to injury" otherwise her pants would have been left down or off and there would have been NO action taken to wipe her down.
Her pants WERE put back on - and she was covered up.
She WAS wiped down after the assault.
The perp/stager was trying desperately to COVER IT UP hoping to God no one noticed. (Same as the head wound. It too was covered up - not obvious)
Family didn't think beyond the present to that fact that an autopsy would end up revealing every little detail.

 

[sissi]

Gentle molestation...gentle murder..these are comments that do make me angry. Please look carefully at the autopsy pictures,and read the autopsy,and "please" source which coroner referred to this as a "gentle" crime.
JMO IMO

 

[Maxi]

"Comparatively gentle" might be a better way to put it. JBR sustained much less damage than most child victims of lust murders, particularly to the genital area. And, when compared to the other pictures of strangulation victims we've seen, she appears to have suffered less physical damage than many of them. I'm particulary impressed by the relatively normal appearance of her face.

 

[BlueCrab]

Gentle molestation...gentle murder..these are comments that do make me angry. Please look carefully at the autopsy pictures,and read the autopsy,and "please" source which coroner referred to this as a "gentle" crime.
JMO IMO

John Meyer is my source. There was no internal damage to the neck despite the fact that he determined that JonBenet died by strangulation.

IMO the grisly part of this crime, the extreme tightening of the ligature around the neck, and the bash in the head, were both post-mortem and done for effect.

Just my opinion.

 

[Ivy]

BC, how could the head blow have been done for effect? It's my understanding that the injury wasn't noticed until autopsy, when the scalp was peeled back.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Thank you Ivy. If it's not noticeable why do it? For the coroner? Staging implies viewing, as on stage for the police. Supposedly the head blow came first followed by staging. So the head damage could be unseen as it wasn't purposeful, the rest purposeful and thus visible. But why make the staging so obscure, and why wrap the body in a blanket? Is this all due to amateurism?
And then explain the contents of the note in terms of staging: a too low ransom amount, expressions of concern for the father and then insults, science fiction scanning ability, overall unreality and then symbolic expressions? Again, amateurism?

I don't bloody think so.

I think what you are looking at here is an event constructed and carried out in a waking dream state. And like dreams the major characteristics are irrationality and symbolism.

 

[BlueCrab]

BC, how could the head blow have been done for effect? It's my understanding that the injury wasn't noticed until autopsy, when the scalp was peeled back.

The kid that hit JonBenet over the head, probably with a baseball bat, using all his might, didn't know ahead of time there wouldn't be blood splattered everywhere. He hit her so hard it split her skull in two and knocked out a piece of the skull, but there was no external bleeding and only residual bleeding on the brain, about 7 or 8 CC's (1 1/2 tsp.). This indicates she was likely already dead when hit because there would have been much more internal bleeding had she been hit and survived long enough to later cause the petechial hemorrhages on the neck due to the strangulation.

IOW she was likely strangled first during erotic asphyxiation, gently but killing her and causing the petechial hemorrhages, and then hit over the head and strangled again for effect.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

And then explain the contents of the note in terms of staging: a too low ransom amount, expressions of concern for the father and then insults, science fiction scanning ability, overall unreality and then symbolic expressions? Again, amateurism?

No, CHILDREN.

JMO

 

[BrotherMoon]

And children read The Psalms and use acronyms.

 

[BlueCrab]

And children read The Psalms and use acronyms.

Just for the hell of it, please note that S.B.T.C. is not an acronym. An acronym is a word. S.B.T.C. is not a word.

S.B.T.C. are the initials for four words.

JMO

 

[Maxi]

Toth, wouldn't there have been more petchiae if the strangulation had been protracted?

 

[Blazeboy3]

BrotherMoon, here's a link to a page on ACandyRose's website containing JonBenet autopsy photos and other information. The photos are on the left side of the page and continue almost to the end of the page. Left click on the photos to enlarge them.

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

At the bottom of the page is a link to click for ACandyRose's main page.

(Thanks for your links, Sundance. I didn't know there was another site that had the autopsy photos.)

xxxooo; thanks for the info/re-read;

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

"Mike was outraged and told Peter, "Look, I don't know what happened for sure and neither do the police. What I do know is that these people are parents of a murdered child, and they need to be treated with respect and compassion. If the police persists, tell them, "We'll see you in court."

"While Mike did not inform us of this act of stupidity and brutality at the time, he started to take the actions necessary to protect us from the mounting police assault. Bynum quickly arranged for Bryan Morgan of Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman in Denver to represent me and for Patrick Burke to represent Patsy. By Saturday night, we had been introduced to both of these men. I did not understand why two attorneys were necessary, but I was in no condition to discuss the matter."

:blowkiss:

 

[Toth]

Toth, wouldn't there have been more petchiae if the strangulation had been protracted?

Not necessarily.
However, I have wondered this point.
I think there has to be a reason for fashioning a garotte. No one actually needs one to kill a six year old girl, not even one suspect who happens to have very weak grip strength.
It is possible that he merely stood with one foot on her and yanked the handle, but I think he pulled the cord taught very slowly. He wanted to make it last ... and last!

 

[Jayelles]

If he had placed a foot on her to counter the pulling of the garotte, there would have been clear evidence of this. My son was assaulted in this way 7 years ago and the actual treads of his assailant's shoes were clearly visible on his face. There was a perfect footprint stretched across his cheek, eyelid and forehead. He was detained in hospital with a concussion from when his head hit the ground. He had been an innocent bystander who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. We didn't press charges because my son was terrified of repercussions.

I do not believe that if JonBenet was killed by the garotte, that the assailant could have "multi-tasked" and been able to simultaneously control the garotte AND the pressure of his foot so that it didn't leave a bruise.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Sac isn't a word either, Strategic Air Comand.
Wac isn't a word either, Women's Air Corp.
Unesco isn't a word....
You're splitting hairs, and my side.

Back to the adult world. What about the wiping of the body? Was it wiped with the shirt on and the faux garrote in place? Was it wiped redressed and then the garrote applied? Was it wiped and redressed with the garrote on the neck? Was it wiped and redressed with urine stained underpants, and why?

Can a corpse be strangled and show petechial hemhorraging?

Can a six year old suffer a blow that causes an 8 1/2 " skull fracture with a bone displacement and maintain blood pressure and respiration?

The arms were aproximately 6" apart at the wrist, but there was 15" of cord between the loops. What held the arms closer together?

 

[LovelyPigeon]

"Garrote" is an accurate description of the cord with handle using to strangle JonBenét. Here's the Merriam-Webster definition:

Main Entry: 1gar·rote
Variant(s): or ga·rotte /g&-'rät, -'rOt; 'gar-&t/
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish garrote
Date: 1622
1 a : a method of execution by strangulation b : the apparatus used
2 : an implement (as a wire with a handle at each end) for strangulation

The cord loop fashioned with a slip knot and a handle is a garrote.

A wire with handles at each end is another exmple of a garrote.

 

[Toth]

My understanding is that the forensic types use the term 'ligature' and that if there is any type of 'assistive device' applied to affect the ligature, the item is described as a garrote. One handle, two handles, large handle, small handle, it makes no difference. An assistive device attached to a ligature renders the object as properly described as a garrote.

 

[Maxi]

...
Back to the adult world. What about the wiping of the body? Was it wiped with the shirt on and the faux garrote in place? Was it wiped redressed and then the garrote applied? Was it wiped and redressed with the garrote on the neck? Was it wiped and redressed with urine stained underpants, and why?

From what Meyer was supposed to have said to witnesses during the autopsy, it appeared that the vaginal area had been wiped down and the underpants and longjohns pulled back up or on. I don't know that there was any evidence of other wiping or re-dressing, other than Patsy's original statement about JBR having been put to bed in a red turtleneck.

Can a corpse be strangled and show petechial hemhorraging?

I think there might be minimal petechiae present if the person were strangled immediately after death. Death is more of a process than in instant. Petechiae are caused by trapped blood leaking from the little blood vessels. Usually, you need some blood pressure going to cause petechiae.

Can a six year old suffer a blow that causes an 8 1/2 " skull fracture with a bone displacement and maintain blood pressure and respiration?

Yes.

 

[K777angel]

Not necessarily.
However, I have wondered this point.
I think there has to be a reason for fashioning a garotte. No one actually needs one to kill a six year old girl, not even one suspect who happens to have very weak grip strength.
It is possible that he merely stood with one foot on her and yanked the handle, but I think he pulled the cord taught very slowly. He wanted to make it last ... and last!

Yeah - he wanted to "make it last ... and last!" - and then he kindly wrapped her up nicely and securely in a blanket.
Oh - and that was even after he kindly wiped her off after assaulting her sexually and even cared enough to pull her underpants and pants back up!

You cannot ignore evidence in this crime Toth and focus only on what fits your theory if you want to be considered objective.
This is why Lou Smit is the laughing stock in his profession. He is a "cafeteria cop". "I'll have a little of THIS evidence, and a little of THAT evidence - but I refuse to have any of THAT evidence or THAT evidence."