Rape allegations mount against Bill Cosby #2

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  • #421
I could perhaps believe there might be a couple who made it up or exaggerated for effect but the more women there are the less I am inclined to believe that they all made it up. So whether the real number is 15 or 25 it doesn't really make a difference as to how I perceive Bill Cosby. If he raped just one of them for real he's a rapist.

Several women have indicated that they've been in contact with others who haven't come into the public eye yet, and while I've no way of verifying that it's true it seems like the women who have come forward could be just the tip of the iceberg.

Why all people have to do is come and tell the same story as is already in the news and there you have it another complaint. It does not make it true.
 
  • #422
And?? She supports her husband. I am not sure what you are trying to glean from this?

I gotta tell you it drives me crazy when people read into things.

I think it's you who are reading into things now. I was simply snipping a quote because links without quotes are so confusing.
 
  • #423
Why all people have to do is come and tell the same story as is already in the news and there you have it another complaint. It does not make it true.

It does not make it false either. *shrug*

Bill Cosby can sue them if he wants.

I find it noteworthy that most of these people don't appear to be random crazies who jumped up from out of nowhere to spin a totally made up story about how Cosby attacked them in a random location. For the most part they're people from Cosby's past, people from show business and the fringes of it who have had modeling agencies and acting experience and who apparently have really interacted with Cosby and people he knows.

Because I think the odds of finding twenty or thirty crazy people who think it would be cool to make up a false accusation about rape that happened 40 years ago would be much better in a larger population. What are the odds that half the models you mentored happen to go crazy simultaneously 40 years later?
 
  • #424
I'm just waiting for all that, *cough cough*, smoke to clear.
 
  • #425
It does not make it false either. *shrug*

Bill Cosby can sue them if he wants.

I find it noteworthy that most of these people don't appear to be random crazies who jumped up from out of nowhere to spin a totally made up story about how Cosby attacked them in a random location. For the most part they're people from Cosby's past, people from show business and the fringes of it who have had modeling agencies and acting experience and who apparently have really interacted with Cosby and people he knows.

Because I think the odds of finding twenty or thirty crazy people who think it would be cool to make up a false accusation about rape that happened 40 years ago would be much better in a larger population. What are the odds that half the models you mentored happen to go crazy simultaneously 40 years later?

The problem is that if it is false this is a smear campaign. I think there are many many people over the years that either make some accusations up or remember things differently than they happened because they don't like someone.

I think history has plenty of examples of lots of people accusing someone of something only to have it proven that it was not that person at all.

I can not assume people are guilty. I need proof to see them guilty.
 
  • #426
But you have no problem assuming 30 women are guilty of making false accusations, even without proof that they're false?

I think history has plenty of examples of lots of people accusing someone of something only to have it proven that it was not that person at all.

False eyewitness identification is a big problem but that's not what these allegations are about at all. They didn't get attacked in a dark alley and then later say, um, I'm not sure but it looked like Bill Cosby. They knew perfectly well who they were with when they were raped (allegedly).
 
  • #427
FWIW, testimony, IIRC, becomes considered as fact only after solemn declarations have made under oath. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/testify) Accusations made to reporters and journalists re BC, so far seem to be uncorroborated statements about personal experiences. In some cases, the statements are hearsay. I haven't read any yet that are from witnesses who have first hand knowledge of a sexual assault made on another person. This doesn't mean that all the alleged victims/survivors are lying, or that witnesses to some of these allegations don't exist. Neither should these statements be ignored. Just as the silence of comedians who knew and worked with BC has been damning, the growing list of accusers/alleged victims/alleged survivors is, to say the least, damning and sickening.

However, IIRC, even some very damning testimony is not admissible in a court case in some circumstances. In California, the Evidence Code section 1101, subdivision (b), permits “the admission of evidence that a person committed a crime, civil wrong, or other act when relevant to prove some fact...other than his or her disposition to commit such an act". (http://www.fdap.org/downloads/articles_and_outlines/UnchargedActsEvidence.pdf) So even should the accusations become testimony and establish facts, they might not ever be considered in a trial should they be considered as prior bad acts that would unduly influence a jury to become prejudiced against a defendant. (http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/prior-bad-act/) This seems to be true when the character of the accused is under consideration.

(http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_404)

In court the character of a witness may also be tested. Even if the statement that a particular witness makes may be considered as evidence, a jury may not accept it based on what they believe to be the credibility of the person who testified. Since some of the alleged victims were addicts, or accepted money from BC via Frank Scotti (http://deadline.com/2014/11/bill-cosby-the-cosby-show-nbc-frank-scotti-1201293952/), a member of the jury might consider their testimony to be suspect, IMO.

Again, I'm not saying that the statements made to the media won't be considered as evidence, just that the possibility exists that at least some of the accusations against BC may never be heard in court as evidence. As to any person's opinion about a particular allegation, I think each person is free to form their own judgement whether in favour of accuser or accused. It may be JMO, but I think it's really important to have a Devil's Advocate is discussion threads to point out the flaws in arguments or gaps in logic.

I'm looking forward to hearing from speculations from lawyers, especially CA lawyers, about how various statements will be sorted out.

I certainly wasn't saying that statements reported in the press are evidence. This is why I said their statements have the "potential" to be evidence. But if and when there are legal proceedings - criminal or, more likely, civil - these same women can give testimony that is considered evidence.

IMo
 
  • #428
Why all people have to do is come and tell the same story as is already in the news and there you have it another complaint. It does not make it true.
I am interested in understanding why you cling so furiously to the possibility that Cosby did not do this.

I re-posted the list of accusations for you a day or two ago, after you suggested only one person hs accused BC of sexual assault, yet you seem like you didn't actually read it.

Perhaps you could offer for the rest of us an alternate explanation for how about 25 women could come forward with similar stories of encounters with the same man. Do you think it is some kind of conspiracy? If so it would be helpful to others to see where you're coming from if you were to provide your theory for "the anatomy of a conspiracy theory against BC". I think, when you apply your critical thinking to the theory, you will find many holes in it and maybe you will come around to seeing there is just no way for 25+ women of different ages from all over North America to conspire. You have not shown in any way how anyone has gained from their revelations. So far all I see is women being branded as liars. No one has made a dime. Did you see the CNN special? When asked, not one woman stated she has gone after money from BC.

What is your theory to explain their "lies"? I truly would like to know.Please, flesh it out.
 
  • #429
The problem is that if it is false this is a smear campaign. I think there are many many people over the years that either make some accusations up or remember things differently than they happened because they don't like someone.

I think history has plenty of examples of lots of people accusing someone of something only to have it proven that it was not that person at all.


I can not assume people are guilty. I need proof to see them guilty.

BBM for focus. You have stated this or something like it multiple times on these threads yet refuse to provide any concrete examples despite repeated polite requests from your fellow WSers to do so.

Nor have you provided a source for your statement yesterday that Lisa Bonet said nothing happened between her and BC.

It's difficult for me to take someone's views seriously when they continually refuse to support their assertions with facts and/or sources.
 
  • #430
I don't see a bandwagon. I see strength in numbers for all the alleged victims. BC was a powerhouse during his reign, one that could seemingly get away with drugging and raping women, with no repercussions. One voice alone was easily dismissed due to that power. Together, these women are finally being heard. There will be more. BC was well traveled and IMO used his star to fulfill his perversions. Honestly, it explains for me why his preferred method was to drug his prey. He was going to make damn sure the victims accounts would be non-lucid and questionable , at the very least, should it ever come to light. JMO.

I do agree with you that there is strength in numbers, Disguiseduser0308. Sometimes one coming forward gives another the courage to speak out.

I'd always liked BC, but I now feel like I liked the persona he projected in his shows and interviews. He has seemed arrogant in recent years, IMO, and I haven't cared for him. Now I know he isn't worthy of my respect.

I am absolutely furious with BC. With that many women stepping forward, I have to say that I believe them. Someone please give me a really good reason so many women would lie about it. My first inclination is to believe a rape or molestation victim. Why wouldn't I? And I don't give a flip whether the accused is a celebrity, or wealthy, or whatever. A crime is a crime and so much more when it involves rape or molestation.

MOO
 
  • #431

From the second link:

Now, Cosby's criticism may be causing younger blacks not to defend him, said Tamara Winfrey Harris, author of an upcoming book on black women and marriage. They don't have the connection and affection with Cosby that older blacks have.

"There are generations of young black kids," she said, "who didn't grow up with the Huxtables as the picture of the perfect black family."

"They don't see him as being on their side, so they're not on his," she said.
 
  • #432
I am interested in understanding why you cling so furiously to the possibility that Cosby did not do this.

I re-posted the list of accusations for you a day or two ago, after you suggested only one person hs accused BC of sexual assault, yet you seem like you didn't actually read it.

Perhaps you could offer for the rest of us an alternate explanation for how about 25 women could come forward with similar stories of encounters with the same man. Do you think it is some kind of conspiracy? If so it would be helpful to others to see where you're coming from if you were to provide your theory for "the anatomy of a conspiracy theory against BC". I think, when you apply your critical thinking to the theory, you will find many holes in it and maybe you will come around to seeing there is just no way for 25+ women of different ages from all over North America to conspire. You have not shown in any way how anyone has gained from their revelations. So far all I see is women being branded as liars. No one has made a dime. Did you see the CNN special? When asked, not one woman stated she has gone after money from BC.

What is your theory to explain their "lies"? I truly would like to know.Please, flesh it out.

I'm going to jump in with a defensive move. To be true there must be legal evidence, which does not seem to be the case here. Anyone can say anything; it does not mean it's true. Maybe it IS true, but let's find legal evidence not just hearsay.
 
  • #433
I'm going to jump in with a defensive move. To be true there must be legal evidence, which does not seem to be the case here. Anyone can say anything; it does not mean it's true. Maybe it IS true, but let's find legal evidence not just hearsay.

This does not answer the questions Slebby posed. ETA. Yes. Anyone can say anything. Why are these women saying these things? What's the explanation if they are not true?

ETA. Perhaps you missed the questions birdycat asked you in post #416.
 
  • #434
I'm going to jump in with a defensive move. To be true there must be legal evidence, which does not seem to be the case here. Anyone can say anything; it does not mean it's true. Maybe it IS true, but let's find legal evidence not just hearsay.

Witness/victim statements/testimony are legal evidence, and are not hearsay. Hearsay is if a witness testifies that they heard a third party report something about an event/crime.
 
  • #435
Witness/victim statements/testimony are legal evidence, and are not hearsay. Hearsay is if a witness testifies that they heard a third party report something about an event/crime.

This has been stated numerous times on these threads. I really don't understand why some people appear to be adopting a "la la la I can't hear you" approach to these statements, which have been backed up with links, and continue to repeat the same tired mantra that there is no legal evidence.

IANAL--and I hope one will correct me if I'm wrong--but if one really splits hairs, nothing is legal evidence until a judge deems it admissible. So it's disingenuous, IMO, to keep proclaiming there is no legal evidence. Of course there isn't, since none of the cases have reached a courtroom. But if they did, those statements would be admitted as legal evidence.
 
  • #436
I am interested in understanding why you cling so furiously to the possibility that Cosby did not do this.

I re-posted the list of accusations for you a day or two ago, after you suggested only one person hs accused BC of sexual assault, yet you seem like you didn't actually read it.

Perhaps you could offer for the rest of us an alternate explanation for how about 25 women could come forward with similar stories of encounters with the same man. Do you think it is some kind of conspiracy? If so it would be helpful to others to see where you're coming from if you were to provide your theory for "the anatomy of a conspiracy theory against BC". I think, when you apply your critical thinking to the theory, you will find many holes in it and maybe you will come around to seeing there is just no way for 25+ women of different ages from all over North America to conspire. You have not shown in any way how anyone has gained from their revelations. So far all I see is women being branded as liars. No one has made a dime. Did you see the CNN special? When asked, not one woman stated she has gone after money from BC.

What is your theory to explain their "lies"? I truly would like to know.Please, flesh it out.

Once again. Crickets.
 
  • #437
The problem is that if it is false this is a smear campaign. I think there are many many people over the years that either make some accusations up or remember things differently than they happened because they don't like someone.

I think history has plenty of examples of lots of people accusing someone of something only to have it proven that it was not that person at all.

I can not assume people are guilty. I need proof to see them guilty.

Victim testimony is proof of guilt. Seems like you don't need proof to see that people are guilty as much as you need proof to see that people were victims. Very, very different.
 
  • #438
"Few people outside Cosby's circle of family and friends are rallying around him. Besides the gravity of the accusations, Cosby's own words may help explain why."

"He's asking people to pull up their pants and act right," said Fredrick Harris, director of the Institute for Research in African-American Studies at Columbia University. "People are questioning, 'Why were you unzipping yours and pulling yours down?'"

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...n-african-american-community/?intcmp=features
 
  • #439
http://www.thecalifornian.com/story/opinion/2014/12/23/investigate-feeding-cosby-mob/20810703/

Here's a somewhat distasteful opinion piece (IMO) because it seems to suggest drugging and raping is not wrong if the victim is wearing the wrong kind of clothes and went into a hotel room with a guy voluntarily.
No one is advocating that Bill Cosby should be fed to a lynch mob as far as I have seen.

With more than two dozen women now accusing Bill Cosby of some manner of sexual assault, it seems the aging comedian has more to fear from the lynch mob than the bar of justice.

Another opinion piece:
http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/5228389-cosby-no-laughing-matter/

I reported on women's issues for The Spectator for more than two decades, so I am not at all surprised that Cosby still has the allegiance of his fans. My coverage of domestic violence and sexual assault also included stories on women who had been murdered by their partners. They were women like Susan Tombolini, who had left her abusive husband and was living in a shelter. She was walking to work by King and Hughson when she was killed by her husband who then walked to police headquarters and turned himself in.

Then there was Janice Wright, who was stabbed to death in her Concession Street apartment by her husband. Sadly, there were many more.

Afterward when I interviewed neighbours, I heard that all-too familiar phrase: "He seemed like such a nice guy." Each time I wanted to say, "So what?"
 
  • #440
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