Rav4

[Sustained]

Everyone says the Avery brothers were thicker than thieves. If that's the case, why wouldn't SA just tell EA/CA and get the RAV4 crushed on 11/1 and transported off property ? IIRC, both EA & CA had criminal records with offenses of a sexual nature.

Can't crush a vehicle that's not there between 10/31 & 11/4 ...

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Thanks for your opinion ...

SA would not have had to walk back with tow trucks and other car transport available. As far as someone seeing him driving a tow truck / flat bed around in the middle of the night, most people would have thought nothing of it and would not have been able to identify a driver in the darkness of a rural area. Take the plate off, cover the back somewhat, and it's a done deal.

Planting is easy scenario to see as well - if the RAV4 was intended to be planted, why would the planter put the car up by the Dassey and Avery houses for fear of being seen ? Put it in the back and let the P.I. with the camera find it after giving her a little hint ...

Great Point about the tow trucks and towing the vehicle off the property, one that I didn't think of...I've had the same impression as Madeline all along.

But, you still have the potential for witnesses. Oh, yeah when I was coming back from the bar at 2:00 am--I saw the tow truck driving now the road...and it had a green SUV on it. It puts suspicion in the minds of others--that's why I don't think he would have risked taking off the property...and why would you take that chance? Claim--LE framed me they did it before and here they are doing it again! That would go along way, then taking the chance someone saw a green SUV on the back of a tow truck at 2:00 am.

I still think he put it there!

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Everyone says the Avery brothers were thicker than thieves. If that's the case, why wouldn't SA just tell EA/CA and get the RAV4 crushed on 11/1 and transported off property ? IIRC, both EA & CA had criminal records with offenses of a sexual nature.

Can't crush a vehicle that's not there between 10/31 & 11/4 ...

Would you admit that you killed someone??? Admitting to assault is different than admitting you killed someone, especially when you can twist the story about the SA into a he said/she said thing.

 

[Sustained]

Great Point about the tow trucks and towing the vehicle off the property, one that I didn't think of...I've had the same impression as Madeline all along.

But, you still have the potential for witnesses. Oh, yeah when I was coming back from the bar at 2:00 am--I saw the tow truck driving now the road...and it had a green SUV on it. It puts suspicion in the minds of others--that's why I don't think he would have risked taking off the property...and why would you take that chance? Claim--LE framed me they did it before and here they are doing it again! That would go along way, then taking the chance someone saw a green SUV on the back of a tow truck at 2:00 am.

I still think he put it there!

Potential yes, but IMO the likelihood is slim on rural roads at 2-3am in the morning. I'm sure the Avery family was called at all hours to accident scenes to remove vehicles, so it's not uncommon for them to be out. Also, determining the color of a car on a flatbed driving by in the dark of night is pretty tough IMO.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

I think there was far more chance of someone seeing him on the property with her during the day or her RAV4 there and no sight of her than someone seeing him in the dead of the night.

 

[Madeleine74]

She and her Rav4 were seen on the property with SA during that day on Oct 31, as late as 2:45pm .... or up to 3:30pm-ish depending on which witness you believe. That's probably one of the most damning pieces of evidence.

What is incontrovertible is no one testified to seeing TH or hearing from TH ever again. No one ever saw TH alive again (except for what BD claimed).

Propane guy thought he saw a 'green SUV' pulling out (note he didn't say 'blue' or 'teal' as others described her SUV), but not one witness testified to seeing TH (other than BD) or hearing from her again. And we know her phone stopped pinging that afternoon as well.

The logical conclusion is she was incapacitated and so was her phone and both stayed on the property.

 

[Sustained]

She and her Rav4 were seen on the property with SA during that day on Oct 31, as late as 2:45pm .... or up to 3:30pm-ish depending on which witness you believe. That's probably one of the most damning pieces of evidence.

What is incontrovertible is no one testified to seeing TH or hearing from TH ever again. No one ever saw TH alive again (except for what BD claimed).

Propane guy thought he saw a 'green SUV' pulling out (note he didn't say 'blue' or 'teal' as others described her SUV), but not one witness testified to seeing TH (other than BD) or hearing from her again. And we know her phone stopped pinging that afternoon as well.

The logical conclusion is she was incapacitated and so was her phone and both stayed on the property.

IMO, no reason not to believe the propane guy as no one else came forward and said they were leaving the Avery property around 3:45 on 10/31.

 

[Madeleine74]

You can certainly believe him. I have no reason to not believe him either. What he wasn't able to testify to: was that vehicle a Rav4 and who was driving that vehicle? And that makes his testimony less than helpful to Avery.

The jury obviously did not find that witness and his testimony compelling (or compelling enough).

It still doesn't show TH was alive at that time. It doesn't show TH ever left that property. We know her phone was disabled that same afternoon. There's still doubt as to what vehicle propane guy saw but more importantly, WHO was driving that SUV.

Here's something else: NO ONE saw TH or her SUV again. After propane guy saw a "green SUV," not one other person ever saw her or her SUV again. They didn't see her, didn't hear from her, didn't see her vehicle, and her phone was not connected to any tower. That can be spun of course as it has been, but it's another piece of circumstantial evidence that cannot be discarded.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

If you believe propane guy, and TH's RAV4 did leave the property, how did it get back there? Why would it be driven off the property to be "hidden"??

If she drove off, then SA isn't the most likely suspect. If someone else drove it off, SA still doesn't seem the most likely suspect because it makes no sense that he'd risk being seen driving her vehicle, to do what with it later!?!?

 

[Madeleine74]

I believe Propane guy did think he saw a green SUV. I don't know if it was actually that day or not. I don't know if it was a Rav4 he saw.

I personally don't think TH's SUV did actually leave the property that day, and not by TH driving it, but if she did leave the property then I have to wonder where she went, why no one else saw her, why no one ever heard from her again, why her phone stopped pinging and why her phone, PDA, and digital camera ended up burned inside of SA's burn barrel(s).

But no, I don't think propane guy is lying. He testified to what he saw. It's up to the jury to determine the veracity of that testimony and how it fits in with everything else they heard and then decide what weight to give it.

 

[missy1974]

I'm at work and can't read the testimony.....but didn't propane guy say when he is filling up, he maybe sees 2 vehicles drive by during that half hour? Between 3:30-4, 2 vehicles...... I have to wonder how busy that road is in the middle of the night.

Jmo

 

[Sustained]

I'm at work and can't read the testimony.....but didn't propane guy say when he is filling up, he maybe sees 2 vehicles drive by during that half hour? Between 3:30-4, 2 vehicles...... I have to wonder how busy that road is in the middle of the night.

Jmo

Propane truck driver saw the vehicle come down Avery Road (a dead end) and then turn onto 147. I'm surprised the defense did not follow up on this a little more as the only folks that would've come down Avery Road were customers and family. IIRC, no one in the Dassey/Avery families owned a green-colored SUV. Certainly, someone was manning the counter during business hours on 10/31 about 3:30 or so and could have spoken to salvage yard customers.

 

[missy1974]

Good point sustained! I never caught that before..... They should have been able to narrow it down at least

 

[BigCityAccountant]

If you believe propane guy, and TH's RAV4 did leave the property, how did it get back there? Why would it be driven off the property to be "hidden"??

If she drove off, then SA isn't the most likely suspect. If someone else drove it off, SA still doesn't seem the most likely suspect because it makes no sense that he'd risk being seen driving her vehicle, to do what with it later!?!?

It could be just a matter of driving out the front to go around to the back of the property to hid the car.

He either WOULD risk dropping off the vehicle on a country road somewhere in the middle of the night or he WOULDN'T. I have to agree with you--I don't think he would risk it, but you never know--we are not dealing with someone working with a full deck, so to say.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I'm at work and can't read the testimony.....but didn't propane guy say when he is filling up, he maybe sees 2 vehicles drive by during that half hour? Between 3:30-4, 2 vehicles...... I have to wonder how busy that road is in the middle of the night.

Jmo

I don't think it is that busy, but you do have a Casino up in Green Bay. Didn't realize it--but I've actually been down that road. Last year when I was heading up north there was an accident where they closed down I-43, they diverted us onto the side roads and then down 147 back to I-43. Not that it is a comparison with all the traffic from I-43 on it, but there really isn't anything there. It is a main thru way into Mishicot though, so I suspect it is traveled enough late at night from people coming from the casino in Green Bay to Mishicot and Two Rivers.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Propane truck driver saw the vehicle come down Avery Road (a dead end) and then turn onto 147. I'm surprised the defense did not follow up on this a little more as the only folks that would've come down Avery Road were customers and family. IIRC, no one in the Dassey/Avery families owned a green-colored SUV. Certainly, someone was manning the counter during business hours on 10/31 about 3:30 or so and could have spoken to salvage yard customers.

Agreed--but--there is always a but---What if a customer stopped in to see if they had a part and they didn't have it. Then there would be no record of that customer coming in...

 

[Sustained]

Agreed--but--there is always a but---What if a customer stopped in to see if they had a part and they didn't have it. Then there would be no record of that customer coming in...

Sure, but I was thinking more along the lines of no customers coming in at all around that time. Which IMO would make the green SUV the RAV4 if the propane truck driver was correct on the day.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Sure, but I was thinking more along the lines of no customers coming in at all around that time. Which IMO would make the green SUV the RAV4 if the propane truck driver was correct on the day.

I don't think that would prove anything. Maybe EA saying oh yeah some guy was here in a green SUV--no way to track the person down. I think it would have been better if the Avery's did have a receipt for a customer that owned a green SUV.

 

[Sustained]

I don't think that would prove anything. Maybe EA saying oh yeah some guy was here in a green SUV--no way to track the person down. I think it would have been better if the Avery's did have a receipt for a customer that owned a green SUV.

Huh ? It would be better for SA if no SUV other than TH's ever left the Avery property around 3:45 on 10/31. How could it be better for him if Avery Salvage had a receipt for someone that owned a green SUV ???

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Huh ? It would be better for SA if no SUV other than TH's ever left the Avery property around 3:45 on 10/31. How could it be better for him if Avery Salvage had a receipt for someone that owned a green SUV ???

I guess it depends on which side of the fence your on....