Rav4

[missy1974]

IF crushing the RAV4 was his plan, it makes no sense that it wasn't done or attempted before the RAV4 was found. SA had no idea that it would take 3 days for her family and friends to report her missing. So why wouldn't he want to do it ASAP? Instead, he went about his business that week... went to an auction for the day with his brother.... went to the cabin. It's not logical to me at all. JMO

I have always thought the RAV4 was put where it was because it was easy to get in from the quarry back roads, and was far from the residences. Earl talked about uprooting some tree's and putting them by the conveyor, the RAV4 had at least one uprooted tree "hiding" it. Was that one of the tree's that Earl put by the conveyor? I have always thought that whoever put it in there either knew those trees were there and used them, or possibly saw them as they drove into the property that way.

 

[proudfootz]

Yes, the best evidence that someone with the means, motive, and opportunity to execute such a plan actually intended to do it would be doing something to advance that plan.

But, no. There is zero evidence of any intention by anyone to crush the RAV4. Instead the RAV4 was preserved: locked and and disabled so that it could not be moved.

I believe you are correct - the idea was to keep any resident at ASY from discovering the vehicle.

All MOO

 

[dexter75]

Yes, the best evidence that someone with the means, motive, and opportunity to execute such a plan actually intended to do it would be doing something to advance that plan.

But, no. There is zero evidence of any intention by anyone to crush the RAV4. Instead the RAV4 was preserved: locked and and disabled so that it could not be moved.

I believe you are correct - the idea was to keep any resident at ASY from discovering the vehicle.

All MOO

Thank you!

WHEW!! FINALLY...a bit of common sense:happydance:

 

[Saul Vesalot]

Thank you!

WHEW!! FINALLY...a bit of common sense:happydance:

I think what you mean is "uncommon sense":moo:

If it were so "common", no one would need to say it, but alas....


Well said, proudfootz.

 

[dexter75]

IF crushing the RAV4 was his plan, it makes no sense that it wasn't done or attempted before the RAV4 was found. SA had no idea that it would take 3 days for her family and friends to report her missing. So why wouldn't he want to do it ASAP? Instead, he went about his business that week... went to an auction for the day with his brother.... went to the cabin. It's not logical to me at all. JMO

I have always thought the RAV4 was put where it was because it was easy to get in from the quarry back roads, and was far from the residences. Earl talked about uprooting some tree's and putting them by the conveyor, the RAV4 had at least one uprooted tree "hiding" it. Was that one of the tree's that Earl put by the conveyor? I have always thought that whoever put it in there either knew those trees were there and used them, or possibly saw them as they drove into the property that way.

EXCELLENT response Missy. ( deleted my first response, lol )

 

[proudfootz]

IF crushing the RAV4 was his plan, it makes no sense that it wasn't done or attempted before the RAV4 was found. SA had no idea that it would take 3 days for her family and friends to report her missing. So why wouldn't he want to do it ASAP? Instead, he went about his business that week... went to an auction for the day with his brother.... went to the cabin. It's not logical to me at all. JMO

I have always thought the RAV4 was put where it was because it was easy to get in from the quarry back roads, and was far from the residences. Earl talked about uprooting some tree's and putting them by the conveyor, the RAV4 had at least one uprooted tree "hiding" it. Was that one of the tree's that Earl put by the conveyor? I have always thought that whoever put it in there either knew those trees were there and used them, or possibly saw them as they drove into the property that way.

Some people seem to prefer to spin out some speculative story that sounds sinister rather than take into account all the evidence which mitigates against there theory - that's how putting a vehicle 150 yards away from the crusher suddenly becomes 'near' the crusher, and how doing nothing to advance a scenario indicates they intended to execute a plan.

 

[guruagain]

Anyone know if the tyres (tires) were ever compared to see if any had been recently changed or whether 1 had a different amount of tread compared to the others. Was the spare checked and tested?

 

[wasnt_me]

This Arial photograph was taken November 4th. I can't see the Rav4 where it was found. Can you? Unless I'm misunderstanding the testimony of Drumm, who flew over the area, this photo is from nov 4th.

There's also a whole lot of activity on Avery road. so if the Rav 4 was not there on the 4th, when did it get there and how? I assume back roads, if Avery road suddenly became this busy. If it wasn't there, then where was it? Not in SA's garage. All we see outside of his garage is his truck, so that means the jeep and the snow mobile have to be in the garage already. That leaves no room for the Rav4.



I don't see it in this one either, but let me know if I'm confused and these are not the ariel photos from nov 4th.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Exhibit-86-Overhead-Shot.jpg

 

[missy1974]

They are NOT photo's from the 4th. During the trial, there was a stipulation or clarification that all the arial photo's were taken AFTER the RAV4 was removed. After Drumm's testimony it was an issue.


And as I understand it, both parties
acknowledge that Exhibit 25 is an aerial photo of
the Avery Salvage Yard property, but one that was
taken some time after at least the victim's
vehicle was removed from the property. And how
long after that, I'm not exactly sure. But is
that correct, counsel?


http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...l-Jury-Trial-Transcript-combined.pdf#page=498

 

[wasnt_me]

What the hell? SMDH! I guess that's what I get from starting at the beginning. And I noticed some dude standing where the car should be. And I thought that was weird or maybe I was seeing things.

Well, I guess you have learned one thing about me. I'm hella observant, huh?

Doe the prosecution ever call the photographers to the stand? When I followed the Jodi Aris trial, it was so well laid out, and you knew where EVERY piece of evidence came from. I don't get this trial. Martinez left no stone unturned. Avery's case if full of rocks to trip on.


ETA

And I'm mad at you for this attachment. Now I'm down a rabbit hole about some cell phone they just found in this transcript! LOL

I don't have enough popcorn for this!
:scared:

 

[missy1974]

What the hell? SMDH! I guess that's what I get from starting at the beginning. And I noticed some dude standing where the car should be. And I thought that was weird or maybe I was seeing things.

Well, I guess you have learned one thing about me. I'm hella observant, huh?

Doe the prosecution ever call the photographers to the stand? When I followed the Jodi Aris trial, it was so well laid out, and you knew where EVERY piece of evidence came from. I don't get this trial. Martinez left no stone unturned. Avery's case if full of rocks to trip on.


ETA

And I'm mad at you for this attachment. Now I'm down a rabbit hole about some cell phone they just found in this transcript! LOL

I don't have enough popcorn for this!
:scared:

This case is one BIG rabbit hole!!! LOL It seems never ending. I also followed the Arias case, and I have followed other cases, I have never heard of such a terrible investigation, and yet they got 2 guilty verdicts.

The photographers testify.... nope.

If you haven't read this one already, read it ... http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...bit-160-Email-Between-Fassbender-And-Ertl.pdf

The above is an email between Fassbender (DCI agent) and Ertl (crime lab).

I don't know how much you have read about the bones and the burn pit, but that is where it went beyond incompetence for me... they literally walled off the medical examiner, and told her it was a conflict of interest to have her there... yet officers that had already or were about to do depositions in the civil suit that SA filed were allowed to be active members of the investigation! On top of that... you will not find any good photo's of the burn pit or the bones before they were moved. CRAZYYYY!

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, I actually have followed other trials that were a lot better put together than this. I just never thought about it because, well, because they made logical sense. The only other one I followed that was messed up was Amanda Knox.

I started skipping around, so I went to the post conviction relief. I will take a look at this other link you posted, but while reading the relief, I came up with a thought about the whole car crushing thing.

Zellner says Steven did not need the key because he could use the front loader. I don't know what their front loader looks like, but it wouldn't make sense to put the car on the ridge if you had to take the front loader up there to get it. Seems narrow up there, but I don't know.

Anyways, that wasn't the thought. I actually JUST thought of that one.

My thought was, that I wanted to know what a front loader was. So then I looked it up and I saw pictures of mountains of crushed cars as a part of the search. So I looked at pics from the case, and I noticed there are not a lot, if any crushed cars near the crusher. So I wondered if crushing was a large part of their business. If it was, then where is the mountain of crushed cars? It if isn't, then wouldn't her car, crushed and laying around, look suspicious?

So I guess I'd need to know their crushing schedule because it could be that, if SA was guilty, he had to wait to crush the car because of their crushing schedule. If that's the case, he did not premeditate this, because he'd have to know he couldn't get rid of the car right away with the crusher. Right? But, seeing as a week later, he was at a cabin and had not crushed it yet, then they apparently do not crush weekly. So it makes no sense to risk her car being on the property that long. Just call her to come out when he knows they will use the crusher, right?

Going away for the weekend and leaving the car there, covered unlike any other car in the yard at a time when he knows people are looking for her, just does not make sense.He was tipped off as much as two days before they found the car that they would be looking and knew he was an appt. So I do not know why he would think leaving the car near the road of the main entrance made sense.

ETA,

I just read those emails you linked and no. No, that doesn't fly. The chain of evidence on this case is like someone dropped a box fill of broken links and said, "good luck with that." They need new trials based on this screwed up chain of evidence alone.

 

[wasnt_me]

Missy,

Hey,

was there anything in reports or testimony about this palm print or these smeared fingerprints on the lower part of the tire cover on the left?

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-307-RAV4-Back.jpg

Well it might be something they did in the lab because I don't see it here:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-135-RAV4-Rear-With-Debris.jpg

If that's the case, that is very negligent of the experts, isn't it?

 

[wasnt_me]

Here are some pictures of what their crusher area looked like. I do not know what date this news cast is from, but I linked the youtube video they came from. The video links work, even though they might have images that look like broken links.

[video=youtube;m5oZgZQwoiM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5oZgZQwoiM[/video]





So that doesn't look like a lot of crushed cars.

They appear to have searched the pile of crushed cars:

[video=youtube;Qf5KuBaWICk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf5KuBaWICk[/video]


[video=youtube;AaTUc2DdcS0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaTUc2DdcS0[/video]

Interesting to note: in this third video, Steven says that Teresa took the pictures, gave him the book, and the paperwork she fills out and that's it.

He told police he didn't get any papers. What of that detail? He in fact, asks "What do I need that for?" when the police inquire about a receipt.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

So I guess I'd need to know their crushing schedule because it could be that, if SA was guilty, he had to wait to crush the car because of their crushing schedule. If that's the case, he did not premeditate this, because he'd have to know he couldn't get rid of the car right away with the crusher. Right? But, seeing as a week later, he was at a cabin and had not crushed it yet, then they apparently do not crush weekly. So it makes no sense to risk her car being on the property that long. Just call her to come out when he knows they will use the crusher, right?

Going away for the weekend and leaving the car there, covered unlike any other car in the yard at a time when he knows people are looking for her, just does not make sense.He was tipped off as much as two days before they found the car that they would be looking and knew he was an appt. So I do not know why he would think leaving the car near the road of the main entrance made sense. /QUOTE]

RSBM: RBBM:

Let's not forget this was a BUSINESS that was open for business that first whole week of November. There were customers walking around that salvage yard ALL WEEK LONG. What was to prevent one of her family members or friends from walking in there saying they needed a car part. They would have been sent back into the pit to look for and remove such part on their own. Why would you risk leaving a car there when at any time family and friends could have found it on the Avery property. It doesn't make sense at all.

As for your question about the car crusher schedule I don't recall. I'll have to ring the document expert. (Oh, Missy???)

ETA: You are asking some very good questions and it's great to get a new prospective and fresh eyes on the case.

 

[wasnt_me]

Thanks, bigcity,

I was hoping I didn't sound just way too unresearched.

I have another question about the mud on the car, and I guess I'll put it here. Notice this zoomed in picture.



This is where the broken light is. Notice there is mud behind where the light would be.

I don't know what this has to do with the case because the blinker in trunk appears to be mud free. And I'm thinking that because Teresa had to take her car on her business appointments, she probably kept it looking clean on the outside. Especially if there were Autotrader clients looking at her, right?

So that's just making me think the mud got on the car coming in from the back entrance of the salvage yard. I just don't know how it fits in.

It's weird that none of her friends or anyone knows about this broken blinker.

I'm trying to also understand how SA's blood got on the frame in the backseat. That's a weird place for it to be, except if you consider someone was back there, moving the back seat. But that is the right side of the car. I can't see how his blood got there while undoing the seat because his right hand wouldn't be on the side of the car. The only way I see his blood getting right there normally, without being planted, is if he was sitting in the backseat and his hand dripped either when he got in or out of the car. But then, it's like he's playing musical seats because the blood is in the front, too, but not in any area that matches that he's searching the car. Weird.

I don't understand why the back seat was completely removed and then put back down without fastening them. Was she raped back there? If so, you'd think there were be DNA.Unless the killer did it with clothes on, and on plastic.

I also don't understand why there is blood on the plastic wall in the trunk, but not on the carpet. Was she wrapped up in something? It looks like she was wrapped up in something, but the part where her head would be was open, so her hair brushed on the wall of the car. Maybe she was wrapped in the same plastic I'm guessing was laid in the back for the rape.

I would also like to know where the rest of her auto trader magazines, signs, receipts, etc are. Because I can't believe she only took the exact number of items with her that day. Why are all of her business items missing from the car?

Did she have a bag with magazines? And if so, why would the killer destroy the auto trader magazine materials?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Thanks, bigcity,

I was hoping I didn't sound just way too unresearched.

I have another question about the mud on the car, and I guess I'll put it here. Notice this zoomed in picture.

This is where the broken light is. Notice there is mud behind where the light would be.

I don't know what this has to do with the case because the blinker in trunk appears to be mud free. And I'm thinking that because Teresa had to take her car on her business appointments, she probably kept it looking clean on the outside. Especially if there were Autotrader clients looking at her, right?

So that's just making me think the mud got on the car coming in from the back entrance of the salvage yard. I just don't know how it fits in.

It's weird that none of her friends or anyone knows about this broken blinker.

I'm trying to also understand how SA's blood got on the frame in the backseat. That's a weird place for it to be, except if you consider someone was back there, moving the back seat. But that is the right side of the car. I can't see how his blood got there while undoing the seat because his right hand wouldn't be on the side of the car. The only way I see his blood getting right there normally, without being planted, is if he was sitting in the backseat and his hand dripped either when he got in or out of the car. But then, it's like he's playing musical seats because the blood is in the front, too, but not in any area that matches that he's searching the car. Weird.

I don't understand why the back seat was completely removed and then put back down without fastening them. Was she raped back there? If so, you'd think there were be DNA.Unless the killer did it with clothes on, and on plastic.

I also don't understand why there is blood on the plastic wall in the trunk, but not on the carpet. Was she wrapped up in something? It looks like she was wrapped up in something, but the part where her head would be was open, so her hair brushed on the wall of the car. Maybe she was wrapped in the same plastic I'm guessing was laid in the back for the rape.

I would also like to know where the rest of her auto trader magazines, signs, receipts, etc are. Because I can't believe she only took the exact number of items with her that day. Why are all of her business items missing from the car?

Did she have a bag with magazines? And if so, why would the killer destroy the auto trader magazine materials?

Good catch. My memory is fading with my old age...LOL I don't recall if we discussed the blinker being muddy or not. I'm sure somewhere way back when we did, but I can't recall at the moment.

Here is something that is also interesting...

If you look at the picture you just posted and you look at the crime lab photo, the front (sidewall) of the front driver's side tire doesn't appear to have mud on it at the crime lab, but it sure does in that picture. How did it get soooo clean?

I believe KZ said that the cargo floor mat was missing and we suspect whoever killed TH removed the mat at the same time they removed her. We speculated about the cargo mat being missing and I believe KZ mentioned it in one of her documents (maybe in the document she filed for the testing. IDK, but Missy will probably have it at her fingertips. :thinking:

OH~~~and you are correct about the blinker being very clean. Was it wiped down?? Was the tire wiped down? So many questions, so little answers.

 

[missy1974]

IIRC the mud was not tested.

The broken light in the back of the RAV4 was also not tested. I think KZ has been asking to test this. As for no one knowing about it... well this DCI report says that Fassbender asked Ryan and Ryan did some checking with family and friends and reported back that she damaged the front end and just took the payout from the insurance company. KZ subpoenaed the insurance company, they did not have a claim, that letter is here.

Thing is, if the family and friends knew about this damage, it should have been listed on the missing poster they did when TH went missing, it would have been an identifying characteristic or damage on her RAV4. Her first appointment on Oct. 31st was with SS, and he didn't notice the damage either. JMO From the beginning, that light and the back seats have been a topic of conversation and I have yet to read or find a good "answer" lol The light is propping up the back seats, the back seats won't go all the way up unless you remove the headrests, but the reason to prop them up? TH wasn't big, I don't think it was done for extra room. Maybe to look for something? but what? and why leave it like that? it's just odd all around. If you notice in this photo, the seatbelt on the left is missing, where is it? so many unanswered questions.


The hair blood patterns... KZ did say in the post conviction brief that there was a mat, that is now missing, from the back of the RAV4.

There is so much that should have been tested, that KZ wants to test, I hope she gets the chance.

 

[wasnt_me]

Thanks Missy and BigCity,

I think I have decided that the lab techs propped her back seat up because it appears in this picture that the backseat is down like it should be. What do you think?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/02/14/16/3D2C149800000578-4223438-image-a-22_1487088299841.jpg

As compared the this one that missy posted.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-300-RAV4-Cargo-Area.jpg

So if that's true, the the forensics people decided to use that light as a prop. No wonder they didn't test it. They contaminated it and frankly changed the crime scene.

yep, looks like a seat belt could be missing, but if forensics was moving that seat around, then they might have been the ones that have to do with the missing or misplaced belt.

Maybe they moved the seat to see if blood seeped beneath it, but was that discussed in court, or like with the impression that those flyover pictures were nov 4th, was the jury left with an impression that the seats were jacked up like that when they found the car?

I don't know what to think, and I got a real problem with KZ and the sink blood theory.

But I'm over the Rav4 key. I believe it was planted, and it was either a newly made key or it was her valet key that was always in her center console in case she needed it for valet or for mechanics to use. It's more likely to be her valet key that she just never used, which would explain why her DNA might not be on it. She probably only handled it by the necklace or the fob if she had to give it to a valet or a mechanic or maybe even to let friend borrow the car. I don't know. Whatever people use valet keys for.

The police found it, and they planted it. I believe they planted it to prove that the car connected to Steven Avery. I'm assuming that if they found her other keys elsewhere, it still wouldn't matter because they'd just say he kept her spare key to move the car around. I just do not understand where the rest of her keys are, and that's a problem for me.

So you two don't have any ideas about where all of her magazines and work receipts went?

ETA

Yes, I did notice how "clean" those tires got in the storage picture. Weird part about that is--some dude on youtube SWEARS that photo and other rav4 pics have been photoshopped. I'm not even ready for that conspiracy theory yet. Right now, I'm on the musical burn barrels.

 

[missy1974]

hmmm that's interesting, not sure I have ever considered that the tech's used the light to prop the seats up! There are other photo's of the back of the RAV4 and I don't recall seeing any with the seats down like the photo you linked (there are so many photo's that we have not been able to see). Although, if you look at this one... http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/exhibit-RAV4-blood-7.jpg ... it looks like the seat would be in the right position.

TH's paperwork, purse, "set" of keys were never found.

Also, wasnt_me, you asked in a post about the palm prints on the RAV4 spare tire cover, I do believe they took pictures and prints, but did not find a match. IIRC, they took palm prints as well as fingerprints from SA and others in the Avery/Dassey family.