RDI poll/the Stines

[Chrishope]

It's been a while since I read the transcripts, but isn't it as simple as PR panicking during her questioning and worrying she might give away something if she acknowledged the bowl and set up as hers?

As far as I remember, she knew that JB had pineapple in her stomach at the time of the autopsy... but she wasn't prepared for the photographs presented to her in the questioning.

Instead of saying, "Yes, the pineapple was out earlier that day, JonBenet did go right to bed when we got home from the Whites, she must have gotten up late at night and had some herself" she denied all knowledge of this. It was not possible for her to tell a lie that contradicted the earlier story (that JB was "zonked" out) even if a case could have been made that it would be perfectly normal for a child to get up late at night for a snack...

That might be. It's been a long time since I read the transcripts.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

Its a staging error because the artifacts alone tell us that Patsy, Burke and JonBenet probably sat at that table the night before. The proof is the pineapple in JonBenet's stomach, the fingerprints and dna on the artifacts.

There's no doubt at all they sat at the table and ate pineapple, though we don't know if it was several hours before the party, or just after getting back from the party. We do know JB ate pineapple that night, after the party, but we don't really know if the Rs were aware of it.

This information conflicts with the R's version of events regarding JonBenet being put straight to bed.

It doesn't really, because the Rs story is only what they "know" (more correctly are pretending to know) IOWs, yes, we know JB ate pineapple that night, but the Rs can pretend to be (or genuinely be) ignorant of the fact. Their story is she was put to bed upon arriving home. They are claiming not to know anything about her eating pineapple, just as they know nothing about the "intruder" and all the things that happened in the house while they slept.

It makes us highly suspicious of their story, but nothing can be proved. It's not necessarily a staging error because it doesn't have to be explained by the Rs.

If the R's had cleaned up the breakfast bar, all we would have is the pineapple residue, and another item to speculate upon its origin.

That's all we have anyway. We know the origin of the pineapple, but we don't know if she helped herself, unknown to the parents, or if the family sat down and snaked upon return from the party, or if the "intruder" fed her. Even if they'd cleaned up we'd think it highly probable that she ate pineapple that was in her home. We'd dismiss the notion of an intruder bringing it as improbable.

Though it's an inconsistency, it's not one the Rs need to explain. "We don't know 'nuthin".


In this scenario all manner of speculation is valid, e.g. JonBenet awoke, changed into her size-12's wandered downstairs and fetched herself some pineapple.

But because the R's failed to cleanup we know JonBenet sat at that table snacking pineapple.

We don't know that at all. She might have grabbed a few pieces in her hands and sneaked them up to her room. She might have stuffed them in her mouth and went up to bed. She might have woke up at night, come down, at a few pieces, and went back to bed. We know she sat at the table, at some point, but that could have been long before the party.

Even if we surmise she sat down to the table after the party (and I think you'll have to admit that for a 6 year old to be up at 10pm, after coming back from a party where there was doubtless plenty to eat, there is not much reason to feed her pineapple before bed) we don't have anything except speculation.

That is the breakfast bar does not accord with the R's version of events, cleaned up it would.

Again, it doesn't matter. The story doesn't have to be consistent with the evidence. They claim not to know she ate pineapple, and there is a good chance that is true.


.[/quote]

 

[BOESP]

... As far as I remember, she knew that JB had pineapple in her stomach at the time of the autopsy... but she wasn't prepared for the photographs presented to her in the questioning. ...

Didn't Patsy and John make separate statements about how they hadn't read or heard anything from or about the autopsy? They also stated they didn't discuss it.

 

[BOESP]

Iirc, the pineapple was in milk and/or cream. If that had been left out from early evening or before, even just 2-3 hours, there's no way it would have been fit to eat.

 

[sandover]

Didn't Patsy and John make separate statements about how they hadn't read or heard anything from or about the autopsy? They also stated they didn't discuss it.

18 TOM HANEY: Let's --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, but it doesn't
20 look right to me.
21 TOM HANEY: When is the last time that you
22 know of that JonBenet ate pineapple?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
24 TOM HANEY: There were the remains of
25 pineapple in JonBenet's system.
0479
*1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had heard that, yeah.
*2 TOM HANEY: This is not a shock to you?
*3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it is not. No.
*4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
*5 PATSY RAMSEY: But I did not do this. If she
*6 ate that, somebody put that there. I don't know when
*7 she would have eaten it. She was sound asleep when we
*8 got home.
*9 TOM HANEY: And you said that earlier you

 

[UKGuy]

There's no doubt at all they sat at the table and ate pineapple, though we don't know if it was several hours before the party, or just after getting back from the party. We do know JB ate pineapple that night, after the party, but we don't really know if the Rs were aware of it.



It doesn't really, because the Rs story is only what they "know" (more correctly are pretending to know) IOWs, yes, we know JB ate pineapple that night, but the Rs can pretend to be (or genuinely be) ignorant of the fact. Their story is she was put to bed upon arriving home. They are claiming not to know anything about her eating pineapple, just as they know nothing about the "intruder" and all the things that happened in the house while they slept.

It makes us highly suspicious of their story, but nothing can be proved. It's not necessarily a staging error because it doesn't have to be explained by the Rs.



That's all we have anyway. We know the origin of the pineapple, but we don't know if she helped herself, unknown to the parents, or if the family sat down and snaked upon return from the party, or if the "intruder" fed her. Even if they'd cleaned up we'd think it highly probable that she ate pineapple that was in her home. We'd dismiss the notion of an intruder bringing it as improbable.

Though it's an inconsistency, it's not one the Rs need to explain. "We don't know 'nuthin".


In this scenario all manner of speculation is valid, e.g. JonBenet awoke, changed into her size-12's wandered downstairs and fetched herself some pineapple.



We don't know that at all. She might have grabbed a few pieces in her hands and sneaked them up to her room. She might have stuffed them in her mouth and went up to bed. She might have woke up at night, come down, at a few pieces, and went back to bed. We know she sat at the table, at some point, but that could have been long before the party.

Even if we surmise she sat down to the table after the party (and I think you'll have to admit that for a 6 year old to be up at 10pm, after coming back from a party where there was doubtless plenty to eat, there is not much reason to feed her pineapple before bed) we don't have anything except speculation.



Again, it doesn't matter. The story doesn't have to be consistent with the evidence. They claim not to know she ate pineapple, and there is a good chance that is true.


.

[/QUOTE]


Chrishope,

There's no doubt at all they sat at the table and ate pineapple, though we don't know if it was several hours before the party, or just after getting back from the party. We do know JB ate pineapple that night, after the party, but we don't really know if the Rs were aware of it.

Due to the pineapple residue lying last in JonBenet's digestive tract, means she ate the pineapple after arriving back from the White's, what she ate at the White's party would be below the pineapple residue, and anything she ate at home prior to leaving for the White's, would be beneath this. Also Patsy's fingerprint is on the bowl, and Burke's fingerprint is on the glass containing the tea-bag.

Unless JonBenet manually picked the pineapple out of the bowl, her fingerprints and dna should be on the spoon and bowl?

Pineapple bowl closeup.

Prima facia the evidence suggests Patsy, Burke and JonBenet congregated in the breakfast-bar, while JonBenet snacked on pineapple. Burke being the resident tea-drinker, Patsy stated JonBenet did not like tea, he either sat and sipped tea, or left after placing the tea-bag into the glass.

It makes us highly suspicious of their story, but nothing can be proved. It's not necessarily a staging error because it doesn't have to be explained by the Rs.

Just because you cannot prove anything, it does not follow that its not a staging error. It does have to be explained by the R's since they stated they placed JonBenet directly to bed, yet the forensic evidence plainly shows JonBenet snacked pineapple shortly after arriving back from the White's? There is an inconsistency in the R's version of events, I would suggest that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, and along with the placement of the ransom-note and the cleanup of a bedroom, all represent an attempt at staging. The R's left out the breakfast-bar, where the forensic evidence strongly suggest both Burke and Patsy knew JonBenet snacked pineapple there, rather than in her bedroom. This is a staging error!

We don't know that at all. She might have grabbed a few pieces in her hands and sneaked them up to her room. She might have stuffed them in her mouth and went up to bed. She might have woke up at night, come down, at a few pieces, and went back to bed. We know she sat at the table, at some point, but that could have been long before the party.

Hopefully the forensic evidence will assist in advancing the view that this is incorrect?

Again, it doesn't matter. The story doesn't have to be consistent with the evidence. They claim not to know she ate pineapple, and there is a good chance that is true.

It might not matter for you. For the R's to claim ignorance regarding the pineapple is required since we have a staging error, that they are ignorant does not eliminate the inconsistency in their version of events.

If we can establish that their ignorance is genuine and not a defense mechanism this might offer scope for tweaking our RDI theories?



.

 

[sandover]

Chrishope's point is simple: bc the Ramseys say they were asleep, they did not have to explain anything to do with the pineapple. How could they explain something they couldn't have known about bc they were sleeping?

 

[DeeDee249]

There's no doubt at all they sat at the table and ate pineapple, though we don't know if it was several hours before the party, or just after getting back from the party. We do know JB ate pineapple that night, after the party, but we don't really know if the Rs were aware of it.



It doesn't really, because the Rs story is only what they "know" (more correctly are pretending to know) IOWs, yes, we know JB ate pineapple that night, but the Rs can pretend to be (or genuinely be) ignorant of the fact. Their story is she was put to bed upon arriving home. They are claiming not to know anything about her eating pineapple, just as they know nothing about the "intruder" and all the things that happened in the house while they slept.

It makes us highly suspicious of their story, but nothing can be proved. It's not necessarily a staging error because it doesn't have to be explained by the Rs.



That's all we have anyway. We know the origin of the pineapple, but we don't know if she helped herself, unknown to the parents, or if the family sat down and snaked upon return from the party, or if the "intruder" fed her. Even if they'd cleaned up we'd think it highly probable that she ate pineapple that was in her home. We'd dismiss the notion of an intruder bringing it as improbable.

Though it's an inconsistency, it's not one the Rs need to explain. "We don't know 'nuthin".


In this scenario all manner of speculation is valid, e.g. JonBenet awoke, changed into her size-12's wandered downstairs and fetched herself some pineapple.



We don't know that at all. She might have grabbed a few pieces in her hands and sneaked them up to her room. She might have stuffed them in her mouth and went up to bed. She might have woke up at night, come down, at a few pieces, and went back to bed. We know she sat at the table, at some point, but that could have been long before the party.

Even if we surmise she sat down to the table after the party (and I think you'll have to admit that for a 6 year old to be up at 10pm, after coming back from a party where there was doubtless plenty to eat, there is not much reason to feed her pineapple before bed) we don't have anything except speculation.



Again, it doesn't matter. The story doesn't have to be consistent with the evidence. They claim not to know she ate pineapple, and there is a good chance that is true.


.

[/QUOTE]

I have explained this so many times it is getting truly tiresome. The pineapple HAD to be eaten within 2 hours of her death. NOT before they left for the White's. Forensics and science overrule anyone's theories and also trumps what we know or don't know. If you truly can't or won't understand this, PM me and I will explain (again) why the pineapple was eaten AFTER she arrived home from the White's. This is FACT, not opinion or theory. There are only a few FACTS we can say are absolute- this is one of them.
FACT: JB ate that pineapple around 10-11 PM.
What is NOT fact is who was with her when she ate it, if anyone, whether Patsy or BR got the bowl out of the fridge (only their prints were on the bowl) and we don't know whether she ate it with her fingers or that spoon in the bowl or another utensil we are unaware of.

 

[wonderllama]

I'm too lazy to look it up, sorry, but what time did they arrive home again?
And I mean when did THEY say they arrived home, when did the people whose house they were at say they left their house.

Combining facts with statements from Ramseys doesn't always help.

 

[BOESP]

Somewhere (maybe the Bonita Papers???) Patsy states that she only bought fresh pineapple or at least the non-canned variety. She said she sometimes bought freshly peeled and cut pineapple from some grocery. She said this was one of JonBenet's favorite things to eat. She also, iirc, stated that JonBenet could not have gotten the pineapple out of the refrigerator herself because she was not tall enough/big enough.

The cracked crab JonBenet ate at the White's party the night of December 25 was found farther down her intestine, thus proof positive the pineapple was eaten afterwards. Its location in the duodenum indicates, as DeeDee said, that it was eaten approximately two-four hours before her death.

Whatever the reasons, Patsy denies knowing anything about that pineapple being eaten the night JonBenet died.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm too lazy to look it up, sorry, but what time did they arrive home again?
And I mean when did THEY say they arrived home, when did the people whose house they were at say they left their house.

Combining facts with statements from Ramseys doesn't always help.

They arrived home approx 9-9:30 PM. This is not usually in dispute.
One thing to remember about ALL cases like this- just because the Rs are lying about the death of their daughter does not mean that every comment they make is a lie. Like all liars, they mix their lies in with truths and half-truths. I believe they are telling the truth about their time of arrival home. I believe Patsy did help JB get ready for bed, pulling on her longjohns and leaving on the white Gap shirt she wore to the party because it was a comfortable cotton sweatshirt and was easier to just leave it on her. I believe she also had on proper sized panties, though. The size 12s were added after whatever caused her to bleed had occurred. The rest of their story, though, is pretty much fiction.

 

[UKGuy]

Chrishope's point is simple: bc the Ramseys say they were asleep, they did not have to explain anything to do with the pineapple. How could they explain something they couldn't have known about bc they were sleeping?

sandover,
What? So if I murder my wife, wrap her in a blanket then dump her in the coal-cellar, and tell the cops the next day, last time I saw her was before I went to bed, so I really cannot tell you anything since I was sound asleep?

You may think the Ramsey's have nothing to explain because they were asleep, but the forensic evidence, e.g. fingerprints, dna, and pineapple residue suggest otherwise. This represents prima facia evidence that the R's are lying.

Regardless of the R's claims, they staged a crime-scene, and offered a version of events to back it up. The breakfast bar scenario contradicts the R's version of events.

Its that simple, with no credible explanation forthcoming, just denials of ownership, any fair minded person would recognize that along with the size-12's, the failure to cleanup the breakfast bar, has linked Burke and Patsy to JonBenet while she snacked pineaple when they claim she was asleep in bed?

The R's may have a perfectly valid explanation for the facts outlined, or none at all, but its still a staging error, since it manifestly conflicts with their own version!



.

 

[UKGuy]

They arrived home approx 9-9:30 PM. This is not usually in dispute.
One thing to remember about ALL cases like this- just because the Rs are lying about the death of their daughter does not mean that every comment they make is a lie. Like all liars, they mix their lies in with truths and half-truths. I believe they are telling the truth about their time of arrival home. I believe Patsy did help JB get ready for bed, pulling on her longjohns and leaving on the white Gap shirt she wore to the party because it was a comfortable cotton sweatshirt and was easier to just leave it on her. I believe she also had on proper sized panties, though. The size 12s were added after whatever caused her to bleed had occurred. The rest of their story, though, is pretty much fiction.

DeeDee249,
Entirely plausible, yet I doubt it, more likely she was wearing the pink pajama bottoms, which would have been close to hand, as was the top? Alternatively Patsy dressed her in the barbie nightgown, it played some role at some point, otherwise it would not have been dumped, out of sight, into the wine-cellar?

I assume Burke was present when JonBenet snacked pineapple, so he knows what clothing JonBenet was wearing!



.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Entirely plausible, yet I doubt it, more likely she was wearing the pink pajama bottoms, which would have been close to hand, as was the top? Alternatively Patsy dressed her in the barbie nightgown, it played some role at some point, otherwise it would not have been dumped, out of sight, into the wine-cellar?

I assume Burke was present when JonBenet snacked pineapple, so he knows what clothing JonBenet was wearing!



.

All the more reason for BR to avoid talking to police. The pink pajama bottoms are a puzzle. Where are they? I don't believe police ever tried to pin that down. I didn't see them listed in any evidence taken from the home. We see the pink pajama top- on JB's bed. Patsy herself claimed she looked for the pink bottoms and couldn't find them, so she grabbed the longjohns instead. Sounds plausible, but the disappearance of the pink bottoms is problematic.

 

[UKGuy]

All the more reason for BR to avoid talking to police. The pink pajama bottoms are a puzzle. Where are they? I don't believe police ever tried to pin that down. I didn't see them listed in any evidence taken from the home. We see the pink pajama top- on JB's bed. Patsy herself claimed she looked for the pink bottoms and couldn't find them, so she grabbed the longjohns instead. Sounds plausible, but the disappearance of the pink bottoms is problematic.

DeeDee249,
Excuse me Maam, could I ask just one more question: Those pink pajama bottoms, did you say you looked for them, is that right, Oh OK!

Patsy herself claimed she looked for the pink bottoms and couldn't find them

And you believe her, size-12's anyone?


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[Chrishope]

Chrishope's point is simple: bc the Ramseys say they were asleep, they did not have to explain anything to do with the pineapple. How could they explain something they couldn't have known about bc they were sleeping?

Thank you. I'm glad someone gets it.

 

[Chrishope]

sandover,
What? So if I murder my wife, wrap her in a blanket then dump her in the coal-cellar, and tell the cops the next day, last time I saw her was before I went to bed, so I really cannot tell you anything since I was sound asleep?

You may think the Ramsey's have nothing to explain because they were asleep, but the forensic evidence, e.g. fingerprints, dna, and pineapple residue suggest otherwise. This represents prima facia evidence that the R's are lying.

Regardless of the R's claims, they staged a crime-scene, and offered a version of events to back it up. The breakfast bar scenario contradicts the R's version of events.

Its that simple, with no credible explanation forthcoming, just denials of ownership, any fair minded person would recognize that along with the size-12's, the failure to cleanup the breakfast bar, has linked Burke and Patsy to JonBenet while she snacked pineaple when they claim she was asleep in bed?

The R's may have a perfectly valid explanation for the facts outlined, or none at all, but its still a staging error, since it manifestly conflicts with their own version!



.

There is no conflict at all. With the pineapple out, the Rs version of events - "We put JB to bed, went to bed ourselves, woke up to find a RN...blah blah blah" is perfectly consistent. There is no reason that their version could not have happened with the pineapple out on the table.

In fact, with the breakfast bar cleaned up, there is a less convincing explanation. She got up by herself and got pineapple out of the 'fridge (assuming there was any in the 'fridge) With the pineapple left out she had ample opportunity to snack on pineapple, w/o the Rs knowing about it. If anything, cleaning up the breakfast bar would have been an error.

We know from prints that PR and BR were involved with the breakfast bar, but we don't know the time element. It's very possible that PR/BR only sat down to eat pineapple earlier in the day, when it was first set out - presumably several hours prior to the party.

 

[Chrishope]

I have explained this so many times it is getting truly tiresome. The pineapple HAD to be eaten within 2 hours of her death. NOT before they left for the White's. Forensics and science overrule anyone's theories and also trumps what we know or don't know. If you truly can't or won't understand this, PM me and I will explain (again) why the pineapple was eaten AFTER she arrived home from the White's. This is FACT, not opinion or theory. There are only a few FACTS we can say are absolute- this is one of them.
FACT: JB ate that pineapple around 10-11 PM.
What is NOT fact is who was with her when she ate it, if anyone, whether Patsy or BR got the bowl out of the fridge (only their prints were on the bowl) and we don't know whether she ate it with her fingers or that spoon in the bowl or another utensil we are unaware of.

Yes, I understand that she ate pineapple after returning home from the party. I'm sorry if I have not been clear enough as to what I'm saying. I am not suggesting in any way that she didn't eat the pineapple at home, after the party.

And I agree, we do not know who -if anyone- was with her as she ate the pineapple. We know BR and PR were involved with the breakfast bar, but we do not know at what time of day. Their prints could have been made at 11am that morning. Or 7 am. Or whenever the breakfast bar was set out. It could have been many hours before the party.

There is not, as UKGuy suggests, a staging error. Noting about the Rs story is contradicted by there being pineapple in JB's small intestine. With the bowl out on the table she had plenty of opportunity to eat several pieces of pineapple. Whether the Rs knew of it or not really doesn't matter. If she was put to bed and got up later and had pineapple, that does not contradict the Rs story.

Sometimes we want so badly to "prove" something that we do not think clearly. There is nothing in the Rs story that suggests that JB was not up after she was put to bed. It's just that the Rs don't know about it. Many RDIs are assuming that because she ate pineapple, the Rs version of events could not be true. We'd like to believe the Rs have been caught in a lie. But that isn't the case. The Rs story isn't that JB never got up after being put to bed, only that they put her to bed and knew nothing of the nights events until they woke the next morning.

There is no more need for the Rs to explain the pineapple than there is for them to explain the blow to the head, the garrotte, the redressing, and so on.

As I pointed out in reply to UK guy, the fact is that cleaning up the breakfast bar would look even worse, since it makes it less likely JB could have ate some pineapple w/o the Rs knowing of it.

 

[BOESP]

Yeah, but the Ramseys also said JonBenet was asleep when they arrived home and that JonBenet was taken upstairs to bed without waking. They also stated that she would never come back downstairs at night by herself. They said she would never go with anyone unless she knew them.

Soooooo .... we are supposed to believe that shortly after 9:30 PM Christmas night someone JonBenet knew really well took her downstairs to eat pineapple and seemingly left no evidence they were there and Patsy and Burke's prints remain undisturbed. Add to that JonBenet ate pineapple that had been sitting out for a good long while and likely didn't taste good. All the while no one in the house knew what was going on.

I don't buy it.

 

[Chrishope]

Yeah, but the Ramseys also said JonBenet was asleep when they arrived home and that JonBenet was taken upstairs to bed without waking. They also stated that she would never come back downstairs at night by herself. They said she would never go with anyone unless she knew them.

Soooooo .... we are supposed to believe that shortly after 9:30 PM Christmas night someone JonBenet knew really well took her downstairs to eat pineapple and seemingly left no evidence they were there and Patsy and Burke's prints remain undisturbed. Add to that JonBenet ate pineapple that had been sitting out for a good long while and likely didn't taste good. All the while no one in the house knew what was going on.

I don't buy it.

I don't buy it either. But there is a huge difference between not buying it and having "proof" of a lie.

Yeah, but the Ramseys also said JonBenet was asleep when they arrived home and that JonBenet was taken upstairs to bed without waking.

We don't know whether this is a lie or not. Burke contradicts this version, but Burke was 9, and his memory isn't perfect.

They also stated that she would never come back downstairs at night by herself.

There will always be a "first time" for a child to go downstairs at night by themselves. The Rs statement could be true, so far as they were aware. Also she could have come down with Burke.

I think it's unlikely that there was a sit down snack of pineapple just after returning from a party, especially since there would have been plenty to eat at the party, it was probably past the kid's bedtime, and the family was scheduled to get up fairly early and get on their plane to go to Mich. It's possible PR and the kids sat down and had pineapple, but I think it's more likely that JB simply snitched a few pieces from the bowl.

It doesn't really matter if the Rs were aware of her eating the pineapple or not. The more clean-up and the more putting things away (or throwing things away - or perhaps putting the pineapple in the garbage disposal) the more explanation seems to be required - how would JB have eaten pineapple if the breakfast bar was not out, and if the pineapple had been disposed of? Leaving it all out on the table does not contradict their story - regardless of how difficult it is to "buy" the story. In fact, leaving it out fits the story better.