RDI Theorists

[aussiesheila]

Why didn't John go and get the money as instructed, in case the "kidnappers" called and asked for it immediately?

After all....the note said that he was being "monitored".

One would think that if he believed the ransom note, at the very least he would have gotten that adequately sized attache' and gone to the bank.

He did arrange to get the money. I can't remember the details, but something was definitely done that morning to get money, liquified I think is the term.

 

[aussiesheila]

I can't get past the chronic sexual molestation. She'd been didled before the 25th/26th.

Yes I agree she had indeed, and it was at the hands of the same group of pedophiles who were there the night of her murder, IMO.

 

[aussiesheila]

It would be nice if the only question at the moment was whether JMK did it, or not. I don't think he did it, but I think thsi is a great chance for the Boulder D.A./PD to get a lot closer to the guy that did. Whoever did this has to be getting a little upset that JMK is taking credit for something he did.

I think that whoever did this would be getting very, very worried about just how much JMK has heard via the pedophile grapevine and how much of it he will be prepared to tell.

There has already been one killing, possibly two, in this case to deflect the investigation away from pedophiles IMO. The authorities will have to keep their precious gift very well protected if they don't want to lose this opportunity to solve the murder IMO.

 

[aussiesheila]

I have also read, that this statement is not true. So I don't know what to believe.

Some experts think she did suffer prior sexual abuse, some experts think she didn't. So you can look at the evidence and decide for yourself.

 

[aussiesheila]

It seems that a lot of posters, think that JonBenet's parents did this to her.
So lets say they did! So Burke was home correct? So don't you think he would have heard this, at least heard something. I would think he would have at least got up, went to look. Or at least went to his parents br. I mean they are not going to tell Burke what they did.
But then again, if JMK did, it seems no one heard it either! Oh boy, I am back to square one again.lol

In his police interview I seem to remember that Burke did say he heard noises in the house during the night. I also think Patsy heard the scream that a neighbour said she heard at around 2 am which I will attempt to start a new thread about momentarily (as you Yanks say).

 

[BBB167893]

"would you have thought she would have unburdened herself and made a confession to someone on her death bed? I'm not religious, but hear that she was very religious and as such wouldn't she believe she'd be required to confess in order to go to "heaven" or be forgiven?"

In the months before her death, she made a statement where she said "Some things you can't take back." But remember: they always said that faith was enough, you didn't need a confession.

"I have also read, that this statement is not true. So I don't know what to believe.
Do you know if it is fact about prior sexual abuse?"

I'd say it's clear to me! Allow me:

According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim.

"the autopsy report does not say that JonBenet was a victim of chronic sexual molestation at all. I'll eat my words if you can prove this otherwise, but I won't need to."

Get the salt. The autopsy specifically uses the term "chronic inflammation," "epithelial erosion" and that the orifice measured twice normal size.

"Is there any kind of history of PR being physical with JBR? Did people see "things' that made them wonder?"

The housekeeper did. She said Patsy took JB into the bathroom a few times and that you could hear her screaming.

 

[rashomon]

So they chose a figure that would point to them in an attempt to point the finger at someone else who was trying to point it at them? The 2 of them agreed that this would be a good idea? The thought process behind" let's make it look like someone else was trying to make it look like we did it" is bizarre at best.I cannot buy into that theory as it just doesn't make any sense.
The dollar amount definitely leads away from the Ramseys IMO.

Imo it leads directly to them. When they deliberately put the irregular amount of John's bonus in the note, their thought process was not that 'the intruder was trying to make it look like they did it', but to make it appear like someone working at Access Graphics who happened to know John's bonus had written the note. A low-paid person maybe for whom $ 118,000 must have appeared to be an awful lot of money.

The 118K points both ways, whether it was written by the Ramseys or by an intruder. Like so many other aspects of this case it makes sense (or doesn't make sense) for either RDI or IDI.

If it was an intruder, he makes the note point at himself - he knows the family, or knows of JR's bonus, so maybe works for Access Graphics. Why would an intruder point to himself?

And why would an intruder choose such a low amount ?

Indeed, no intruder would do that. I think it was the Ramseys who put this low and irregular amount in the note on purpose to make it seem like a low-paid disgruntled Access Graphics employee who happened to know John's bonus had written it. Investigators should think that of course the Ramseys who were multimillionaires would never have put such a low sum in the ransom note had they written it themselves. Quite clever.
But the mistake the Ramseys made was to throw too many scenarios into that ransom note. The sexual predator scenario for example does not fit with the rest.

It sticks out a mile that the Ramseys' main motive was to create as many 'outside' elements as possible (a political foreign faction, ransom kidnappers, a sexual predator, a revengeful employee ) - anything which should point away from themselves.

 

[wenchie]

Wasn't he making arrangements to get the cash?
I am inclined to think I would just call the police. i would not attempt to handle it on my own. I also believe if someone will kill the hostage at any time, they would kill the hostage period.
So, while I think I would be behave similarly to the Ramseys regarding calling LE and friends, it's impossible to say what i would really do. I hope I never have to find out.

John allegedly made a phone call to "make arrangements".

If he really believed the ransom note, I think he would have gone and gotten the cash, "just in case", or AT LEAST asked LE if he should go and get the cash.

There was also no jumping when the phone rang, or requests to have the phone taps. Patsy in particular, stayed far away from the phone.

Would you get more than one INCH away from the phone while expecting a kinapper to call?

The whole scenario smells bad, for the parents of a child who's been "kidnapped".

 

[Trino]

Good point. I would be sitting by the phone day and night and would certainly jump on the first ring.

 

[BBB167893]

"Imo it leads directly to them. When they deliberately put the irregular amount of John's bonus in the note, their thought process was not that 'the intruder was trying to make it look like they did it', but to make it appear like someone working at Access Graphics who happened to know John's bonus had written the note. A low-paid person maybe for whom $ 118,000 must have appeared to be an awful lot of money."

The answers to most riddles are actually quite simple.

 

[TexMex]

"Imo it leads directly to them. When they deliberately put the irregular amount of John's bonus in the note, their thought process was not that 'the intruder was trying to make it look like they did it', but to make it appear like someone working at Access Graphics who happened to know John's bonus had written the note. A low-paid person maybe for whom $ 118,000 must have appeared to be an awful lot of money."

The answers to most riddles are actually quite simple.

Hi Dave..

Even a "low paid" individual could figure out that if his BONUS was $118K then his SALARY would be much much more

IMO that figure points to someone having the time to look around the home and by putting that amount in the note he was letting the Ramsey's know he'd been in the house a long time....

 

[rashomon]

Even a "low paid" individual could figure out that if his BONUS was $118K then his SALARY would be much much more

A real-life low paid individual would probably be able to figure that out, yes. But the point is that there was no real-life low paid individual who wrote the note. The ransom note writer, by putting in the sum of John's bonus, wanted to establish a connection to Access Graphics employees with inside knowledge being involved. That was the motive for putting that ridiculous sum in the ransom note. And isn't it interesting that precisely Patsy, at the time when they were still in the home and JB's body hadn't yet been discovered, was the first to point out the low and irregular sum in the note ...?

TexMex: I like your quote from Distaso. Makes me think of the Ramseys. Just too many coincidences and strange things when it comes to the forensic and other circumstantial evidence.

 

[rashomon]

Interesting. I see that most people share my view that this was an accident followed by a cover-up. I'd be interested in knowing WHICH Ramsey people feel was involved.

I say that it was Burke - and an accident although a blow in a fit of anger.

JMO

I do think the Ramseys covered up for Burke's sake - but not because he was in any way involved in JB's death. Imo they covered the crime up because they wanted to spare Burke the horrific experience to have his own mother publicly exposed as the person who killed his sister in a rage. This would also explain John helping in the cover-up. (unless he was involved too, maybe as JB's sexual abuser).

 

[BBB167893]

"Hi Dave.."

Howdy, TexMex.

"Even a 'low paid' individual could figure out that if his BONUS was $118K then his SALARY would be much much more"

That was my point. If they figured that out, why not go for the BIG money? I'd hold out, I know that.

"IMO that figure points to someone having the time to look around the home and by putting that amount in the note he was letting the Ramsey's know he'd been in the house a long time...."

Pedophiles don't leave notes, TexMex. That's a fact. You can ask the Quantico guys if you don't believe me. Don't take my word for it.

"I like your quote from Distaso. Makes me think of the Ramseys. Just too many coincidences and strange things when it comes to the forensic and other circumstantial evidence."

Bravo!

 

[Chrishope]

... The ransom note writer, by putting in the sum of John's bonus, wanted to establish a connection to Access Graphics employees with inside knowledge being involved. That was the motive for putting that ridiculous sum in the ransom note. ...

Or, to point to the housekeeper, handiman, or other domestic employees who may have had an opportunity to see JR's pay stubs.


A disgruntled employee is an unlikely intruder, imo. I've heard of disgruntled employees telling off the boss in front of co-workers. I've heard of them going "postal", but I've yet to hear of a disgruntled employee kidnapping his boss's daughter, and then changing his mind and sodomizing her and killing her in the basement.

This kidnapping business is just for show. This was a sex crime.

 

[TexMex]

A real-life low paid individual would probably be able to figure that out, yes. But the point is that there was no real-life low paid individual who wrote the note. The ransom note writer, by putting in the sum of John's bonus, wanted to establish a connection to Access Graphics employees with inside knowledge being involved. That was the motive for putting that ridiculous sum in the ransom note. And isn't it interesting that precisely Patsy, at the time when they were still in the home and JB's body hadn't yet been discovered, was the first to point out the low and irregular sum in the note ...?

TexMex: I like your quote from Distaso. Makes me think of the Ramseys. Just too many coincidences and strange things when it comes to the forensic and other circumstantial evidence.

http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=26

The judge wrote that the ransom note was taken from paper at the Ramseys’ home and written with a pen that belonged to them.

She wrote that both the Ramseys and Wolf agreed the ransom note was not an “ideal specimen” for handwriting analysis because a broad fiber-tip pen was used.

“This type of pen distorts and masks fine detail to an extent not achievable by other types of pens, as for example a ball-point ben,” Carnes wrote.

However, Carnes wrote that the handwriting in the ransom note was consistent throughout the entire writing, contrary to someone trying to hide their handwriting style.

“One of the most common means to disguise one’s handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text,” Carnes wrote.

Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

“Rather, the experts’ consensus was that she ‘probably did not’ write the ransom note,” Carnes wrote.

On a scale of one to five, with five eliminating someone from suspicion as the author of the ransom note, the experts placed Patsy Ramsey at 4.5 to 4.0, Carnes wrote.

 

[TexMex]

:innocent:

"Hi Dave.."

Howdy, TexMex.

"Even a 'low paid' individual could figure out that if his BONUS was $118K then his SALARY would be much much more"

That was my point. If they figured that out, why not go for the BIG money? I'd hold out, I know that.

"IMO that figure points to someone having the time to look around the home and by putting that amount in the note he was letting the Ramsey's know he'd been in the house a long time...."

Pedophiles don't leave notes, TexMex. That's a fact. You can ask the Quantico guys if you don't believe me. Don't take my word for it.

Hi Dave

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The Ransom Note

Summary Findings. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) Rather, the experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. (SMF P 196; PSMF P 196.) On a scale of one to five, with five being elimination as the author of the Ransom Note, the experts placed Mrs. Ramsey at a 4.5 or a 4.0. (SMF P 203; PSMF P 203.) The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." (SMF P 204; PSMF P 204.) The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the Note. (SMF P 254.)" (Carnes 2003:26). "Defendants' experts base their conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey is not the author of the Ransom Note on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristics of Mrs. Ramsey's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note. (SMF P 247.) For example, defendants asserts Mrs. Ramsey's written letter "u" consistently differs from the way the same letter is written throughout the Ransom Note. (SMF P 248.)" (Carnes 2003:27). The expertise and high ethical standards of these experts was summarized by Darnay Hoffman, an attorney for Chris Wolf, who sought to prove that Patsy Ramsey was the note writer, in a fax to Tom Miller, a handwriting expert he had hired (see below): "I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn...He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I.--four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won't give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match." The first four individuals listed below are the experts alluded to in this fax:
"Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." (SMF P 200; PSMF P 200.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).
"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. (SMF P 197; PSMF P 197.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14). However, it has also been reported that "Chet Ubowski of CBI wrote of one of her samples that "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey. Ubowski told investigators that the samples she gave "do not suggest the full range of her handwriting. Likewise, according to Internet poster The Punisher, Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."
"Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her. (SMF P 198; PSMF P 198.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).
"Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. (SMF P 197; PSMF P 197.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).
"Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings. (SMF P 201; PSMF P 201.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).
"Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note. (SMF P 202; PSMF P 202.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).

 

[Chrishope]

http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=26

“Rather, the experts’ consensus was that she ‘probably did not’ write the ransom note,” Carnes wrote.

.[/B]

I don't think that's what the experts said. I thought most of them said she couldn't be eliminated as the author. Maybe one said she wasn't the author.

Most judges have very little experince working as detectives. I don't put much stock in her opinion.

Now LS is another story. Though I think he may be wrong about this case, I have to say he's a very seasoned detective and has solved some tough crimes. When Lou speaks, it's a good idea to listen.

 

[dottierainbow]

Chrishope,
Have you checked out the theories that Lou Smit had on the case? Here's a link http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html
Amy

I don't think that's what the experts said. I thought most of them said she couldn't be eliminated as the author. Maybe one said she wasn't the author.

Most judges have very little experince working as detectives. I don't put much stock in her opinion.

Now LS is another story. Though I think he may be wrong about this case, I have to say he's a very seasoned detective and has solved some tough crimes. When Lou speaks, it's a good idea to listen.

 

[TexMex]

I don't think that's what the experts said. I thought most of them said she couldn't be eliminated as the author. Maybe one said she wasn't the author.

Most judges have very little experince working as detectives. I don't put much stock in her opinion.

Now LS is another story. Though I think he may be wrong about this case, I have to say he's a very seasoned detective and has solved some tough crimes. When Lou speaks, it's a good idea to listen.

Hi Chrishope

The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the Note. (SMF P 254.)" (Carnes 2003:26). "Defendants' experts base their conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey is not the author of the Ransom Note on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristics of Mrs. Ramsey's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note

"Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note."


"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


"Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her.

"Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


Darnay Hoffman, an attorney for Chris Wolf, who sought to prove that Patsy Ramsey was the note writer, in a fax to Tom Miller, a handwriting expert he had hired : "I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn...He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I.--four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won't give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."


"Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.


"Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The Ransom Note