RDI, which sentences in RN is PR, which JR

[voynich]

Meaning what?

I like to quote Sith Lords when I can.

Anyhow, staging within stating could just as apply equally to an IDI. Leopold and Leob created a crime. They needed to create a criminal. They created "George Johnson" "kidnapper and ransom" "our motives are extremely financial" - staging within staging.

 

[BBB167893]

I like to quote Sith Lords when I can.

I know. And I'm game for it. But sometimes it helps to ground ourselves.

Anyhow, staging within stating could just as apply equally to an IDI. Leopold and Leob created a crime. They needed to create a criminal. They created "George Johnson" "kidnapper and ransom" "our motives are extremely financial" - staging within staging.

I hear what you're saying. But to me it comes down to motive. And I think Wendy Murphy said it best: if it really was an intruder, it wouldn't be staged to LOOK like an intruder. (Now, that's Occam's Razor at it's finest, for my money.)

Personally, I think madeleine said it all.

 

[voynich]

I know. And I'm game for it. But sometimes it helps to ground ourselves.

Jedi!

I hear what you're saying. But to me it comes down to motive. And I think Wendy Murphy said it best: if it really was an intruder, it wouldn't be staged to LOOK like an intruder. (Now, that's Occam's Razor at it's finest, for my money.)

Personally, I think madeleine said it all.

If an intruder came in to commit murder and frame up, and staged the crime seen to look like sexual assault and kidnapping, the crime scene would itself looked staged by an intruder.

Madeleine doesn't address which text is JR, and your identification of JR based on it being less flowerly seems unsupported.

Personally I'd call LE ASAP.

 

[DeeDee249]

Right...and I don't believe that note was EVER on those stairs at all. No fingerprints were found on that RN, because it was hardly handled at all. I believe that Patsy wore rubber gloves when she wrote it, and then it went from her kitchen table to the floor, with Patsy's gloved hands putting it there, and from there it was handed to the investigator at the door, when he got there. (IMO this is the only time the note was handled without any gloves, and hence they found no prints on it). According to Patsy, it was on the stairs, she picked it up, handed it to John who spread it across the floor, for whatever reason (wouldn't putting it on a table to read, be easier)...and then it was handed to the investigator. So, there should have been plenty of Ramsey prints on it...and there wasn't ANY prints.

The RN is like the flashlight. Why WOULDN'T the parents' prints be on it? They SHOULD be on it- they claim to have held the note. PR supposedly picked it up of the stairs and JR handled it too. The lack of prints on the note is suspicious, as is the lack of prints on the batteries in a flashlight belonging the home.
And claiming to have found it on the spiral stairs is suspect as well. A real kidnapper would leave the note on the kid's bed. Or on the kitchen table.
Housekeeper LHP said Patsy always left her handbags on the spiral stairs for LHP to clean out, and she was also in the habit of leaving things on those stairs for LHP to deal with. So there was a precedent for PR to leave things on those stairs.
In a home that has back stairs - the back stairs are often used by maids and other household staff and not usually by the family. In the R house, this may not have been the case, as the family bedrooms were located near the back stairs and they DID use those stairs. But an intruder would not have known this for sure- and I'd think a more logical staircase to use would be the main stairs. IF the note were placed on the stairs at all.

 

[Ames]

Damn skippy! I've been up one side of this case and down the other. I know both arguments inside and out. And staging within staging is as simple as you can get.

Uh-huh...yep it is!

 

[voynich]

Uh-huh...yep it is!

If parents can do it, so can IDI

 

[Ames]

If parents can do it, so can IDI

But WHY? IDI...staging within staging makes no sense.

 

[voynich]

But WHY? IDI...staging within staging makes no sense.

in general?


Leopold and Leob created a crime. They needed to create a criminal. They created "George Johnson" "kidnapper and ransom" "our motives are extremely financial" - staging within staging.

IDI as above, staged a murder to look like a kidnapping and ransom gone wrong, when sexual assault was apparently the true motive, and then staging it to frame the parents.

 

[Ames]

in general?


Leopold and Leob created a crime. They needed to create a criminal. They created "George Johnson" "kidnapper and ransom" "our motives are extremely financial" - staging within staging.

IDI as above, staged a murder to look like a kidnapping and ransom gone wrong, when sexual assault was apparently the true motive, and then staging it to frame the parents.

I believe that you have got that backward. If sexual assault was the true motive, they would have found ALOT more evidence to support that. Where was the semen? There wasn't any...that is why none was found. And the RN, didn't exactly point TO the Parents....it was a Small Foreign Faction. I do not believe if it had of been a real intruder...that he would have left a RN at ALL, if he wanted to point the finger at the parents. He would have just killed her, and left her in the basement...without a RN. (The RN was written to throw authorities off).

 

[voynich]

I believe that you have got that backward. If sexual assault was the true motive, they would have found ALOT more evidence to support that. Where was the semen? There wasn't any...that is why none was found. And the RN, didn't exactly point TO the Parents....it was a Small Foreign Faction. I do not believe if it had of been a real intruder...that he would have left a RN at ALL, if he wanted to point the finger at the parents. He would have just killed her, and left her in the basement...without a RN. (The RN was written to throw authorities off).

You know how the BTK killer liked to enter people's homes and kill people. This killer staged his killing as a kidnapping and sexual assault and part of that staging involved an RN that points the finger to R's.

 

[Tadpole12]

interesting analysis of rn:


http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.writinganalysis.com/images/ramsey_big.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.writinganalysis.com/ramsey.html&usg=__puWS8Cx_PvsGzLqLYJSmW336DAw=&h=683&w=637&sz=18&hl=en&start=19&um=1&tbnid=s5TcuhfpZfUcMM:&tbnh=139&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpatsy%2BRamsey%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

 

[Tadpole12]

fyi, Sith Lords ...

Yesterday's episode of "Jeopardy!" included a catagory entitled
Dr. Vader D.D.S., 'things said' about Darth if he were to be a dentist.

Thought of y'all, made me laugh.

 

[DeeDee249]

fyi, Sith Lords ...

Yesterday's episode of "Jeopardy!" included a catagory entitled
Dr. Vader D.D.S., 'things said' about Darth if he were to be a dentist.

Thought of y'all, made me laugh.

That must have been funny- remember any of the "things"?

 

[Tadpole12]

ya it was Jeopardy funny ... so ....
one of the answers was .... What are crowns?
As the patients teeth were repalced with black helmets.

? guess you had to be there, funny.

 

[BBB167893]

If an intruder came in to commit murder and frame up, and staged the crime seen to look like sexual assault and kidnapping, the crime scene would itself looked staged by an intruder.

Maybe. But it's a question of motive to me. Not to mention that little Occam's Razor thing.

Madeleine doesn't address which text is JR,

I suppose it doesn't, but I find it a useful jumping-off point for the larger issue.

and your identification of JR based on it being less flowerly seems unsupported.

Sorry; I thought you were merely speaking theoretically. But in all honesty, just what kind of support are you looking for?

Personally I'd call LE ASAP.

LE will know when the world knows, if you get my drift.

 

[BBB167893]

But WHY? IDI...staging within staging makes no sense.

That was the point I was trying to get across!

 

[voynich]

Maybe. But it's a question of motive to me. Not to mention that little Occam's Razor thing. .

What is the motive for RDI? How would you apply Occam's Razor to what is a child murder staged to look like a kidnapping and sexual assault and frameup?

I suppose it doesn't, but I find it a useful jumping-off point for the larger issue.
Sorry; I thought you were merely speaking theoretically. But in all honesty, just what kind of support are you looking for?



LE will know when the world knows, if you get my drift.

Maybe JR dictated the entire note from start to finish, maybe PR wrote it herself start to finish. Maybe it's 50-50

In your theory after JR finishes his dictation, does PR read aloud as she is writing the remainder, does JR watch and read what PR is writing, does he walk away? Does he read it after she's done? Why does JR and PR agree to write this together or split the work?

 

[voynich]

That was the point I was trying to get across!

It's staging on the theory if you throw enough crap at a wall, some of it will stick.

 

[BBB167893]

What is the motive for RDI?

I meant the motive to stage it. The Rs would have much better cause to stage a scene than an intruder.

How would you apply Occam's Razor to what is a child murder staged to look like a kidnapping and sexual assault and frameup?

Here's how: for IDI you have to be able to put someone in the house vs. RDI, where they were already there. That's one way I can think of.

Moreover, the idea (expressed by Steve Ainsworth--another incident the world will know about if I have my way) that the intruder staged it to look like the parents staged it to look like an intruder...sounds a little like "The Battle of Wills" in The Princess Bride. Which is simpler: the idea that the Rs staged an intruder, or the idea that an intruder staged--yadda yadda?

Maybe JR dictated the entire note from start to finish, maybe PR wrote it herself start to finish. Maybe it's 50-50

Granted. I'm going with my gut on this one.

In your theory after JR finishes his dictation, does PR read aloud as she is writing the remainder, does JR watch and read what PR is writing, does he walk away? Does he read it after she's done? Why does JR and PR agree to write this together or split the work?

Well, on the first account, it's not particularly my theory. I don't really think about it that much. But, since this is (to my way of thinking) an all-or-nothing thread, might as well go ahead.
So, on the second account, I don't think they read it afterwards, aloud or otherwise. That would have made it "real" to them in my opinion. On the third account, I think he did walk away. I figure her sanity at that moment was hanging by a thread and he didn't want to make it worse.

On the fourth account, why did they do it together? That's easy: it's one's word against the other. If the law can't figure who did what, they can't do anything. That's known as the "cross-fingerpointing defense." Committing murder's not like taking a bus ride together, where each one can get off at a different stop.

It's staging on the theory if you throw enough crap at a wall, some of it will stick.

Precisely! I'm glad we got that settled.

 

[DeeDee249]

IMO, motive only enters into it when a murder is premeditated. This was not. This was an accidental killing then staged to look like a murder. They did not intend to kill JBR. R quote "We didn't mean for this to happen".
There was no motive for the killing.
However, there was motive for the staging...to save their reputations, lifestyle, protect the remaining child. This doesn't mean that they needed to protect him because he was involved (though this can not be ruled out) but to save him from the trauma of seeing his parent(s) charged with the murder of his sister and all that would result from that.
Keep in mind that when I say "accidental" death, I don't mean accidental as in fell down the stairs or fell out a window or slipped in the bathtub. I mean accidental as in slammed into a faucet or hit with a blunt instrument while in a rage. THAT kind of accident carries charges with it. THAT kind of accident sends people to jail.