What if Leopold & Loeb writes the JB ransom note?

[voynich]

Do I misunderstand you, or are you saying that PR and JR must not walk about with the L&L rn, but an intruder must have done?

The RN shows knowledge of LLRN, either an IDI knew of LL as he did movies like Dirty Harry and Ransom, or PR/JR did.

 

[Ames]

The RN shows knowledge of LLRN, either an IDI knew of LL as he did movies like Dirty Harry and Ransom, or PR/JR did.[/quote]

That would be MY guess...PR/JR. Patsy was the actress in the family, remember??

From Wiki...

Impact on popular culture
Leopold and Loeb have been the inspiration for many works in film, theater and fiction, such as the 1929 play Rope by Patrick Hamilton, which served as the basis for [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Hitchcock"]Alfred Hitchcock[/ame]'s film of the same name. In 1956, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyer_Levin"]Meyer Levin[/ame] revisited the case in his [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel"]novel[/ame] Compulsion, a fictionalized version of the actual events in which the names of the pair were changed to "Steiner and Strauss." Three years later, the novel was made into a film of the same name. Never the Sinner, a theatrical recreation of the Leopold and Loeb trial, was written by John Logan in 1988.
Other works inspired by the case include [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Kalin"]Tom Kalin[/ame]'s more openly [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay"]gay[/ame]-themed 1992 film Swoon; Michael Haneke's 1997 film Funny Games, with an [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States"]American[/ame]shot-for-shotremake produced in 2008; [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbet_Schroeder"]Barbet Schroeder[/ame]'s [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_by_Numbers"]Murder by Numbers[/ame] (2002); and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Dolginoff"]Stephen Dolginoff[/ame]'s 2005 off-Broadway musical [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrill_Me"]Thrill Me: The Leopold and Loeb Story[/ame].
Nathan Leopold, Jr. is also featured as a character in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicky_Silver"]Nicky Silver[/ame]'s off-Broadway comedy The Agony & The Agony, despite the play's being set in 2006.
The case has also inspired episodes of the TV crime drama Law & Order. One episode involving a thrill kill by two young men, each refusing to implicate the other (they know neither can be definitively proven to have fired the murder weapon) elicits a reference from Jack McCoy's assistant: "Darrow got Leopold and Loeb. What do we get?" McCoy's reply: "[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beavis"]Beavis[/ame] and Butt-head."
The Leopold and Loeb case is a theme in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Clowes"]Daniel Clowes[/ame]' 2005 graphic novel [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Haven"]Ice Haven[/ame], which includes a short story about the criminal duo, as well as references to the incident in other stories.
An episode of the comedy show [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000"]Mystery Science Theater 3000[/ame] that riffed on the short film Are You Ready for Marriage? includes the line, "I hope Leopold doesn't find out about this," over a shot of a young man kissing a girl.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Allen"]Woody Allen[/ame]'s [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Hall"]Annie Hall[/ame]: Alvy Singer says "I think, I think there's too much burden placed on the orgasm, you know, to make up for empty areas in life." Pam: "Who said that?" Alvy replies: "It may have been Leopold and Loeb."

==========================================

From AMES: Goodness knows there has been enough Plays, Movies and TV shows based on this. Good grief!

 

[voynich]

The RN shows knowledge of LLRN, either an IDI knew of LL as he did movies like Dirty Harry and Ransom, or PR/JR did.[/quote]

That would be MY guess...PR/JR. Patsy was the actress in the family, remember??

From Wiki...

Impact on popular culture
Leopold and Loeb have been the inspiration for many works in film, theater and fiction, such as the 1929 play Rope by Patrick Hamilton, which served as the basis for Alfred Hitchcock's film of the same name. In 1956, Meyer Levin revisited the case in his novel Compulsion, a fictionalized version of the actual events in which the names of the pair were changed to "Steiner and Strauss." Three years later, the novel was made into a film of the same name. Never the Sinner, a theatrical recreation of the Leopold and Loeb trial, was written by John Logan in 1988.
Other works inspired by the case include Tom Kalin's more openly gay-themed 1992 film Swoon; Michael Haneke's 1997 film Funny Games, with an Americanshot-for-shotremake produced in 2008; Barbet Schroeder's Murder by Numbers (2002); and Stephen Dolginoff's 2005 off-Broadway musical Thrill Me: The Leopold and Loeb Story.
Nathan Leopold, Jr. is also featured as a character in Nicky Silver's off-Broadway comedy The Agony & The Agony, despite the play's being set in 2006.
The case has also inspired episodes of the TV crime drama Law & Order. One episode involving a thrill kill by two young men, each refusing to implicate the other (they know neither can be definitively proven to have fired the murder weapon) elicits a reference from Jack McCoy's assistant: "Darrow got Leopold and Loeb. What do we get?" McCoy's reply: "Beavis and Butt-head."
The Leopold and Loeb case is a theme in Daniel Clowes' 2005 graphic novel Ice Haven, which includes a short story about the criminal duo, as well as references to the incident in other stories.
An episode of the comedy show Mystery Science Theater 3000 that riffed on the short film Are You Ready for Marriage? includes the line, "I hope Leopold doesn't find out about this," over a shot of a young man kissing a girl.
Woody Allen's Annie Hall: Alvy Singer says "I think, I think there's too much burden placed on the orgasm, you know, to make up for empty areas in life." Pam: "Who said that?" Alvy replies: "It may have been Leopold and Loeb."

==========================================

From AMES: Goodness knows there has been enough Plays, Movies and TV shows based on this. Good grief!

I learned something, if you want to be a famous murderer, say "Nietzsche made me do it"

--- Clarence Darrow summation states it was Nietzsche that made them do it.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Darrow[/ame]

Leopold and Loeb

In 1924, Darrow took on the case of Leopold and Loeb, the teenage sons of two wealthy Chicago families, who were accused of kidnapping and killing Bobby Franks, a 14-year-old boy, to see what it would be like to commit the ultimate crime. Darrow convinced them to plead guilty and then argued for his clients to receive life in prison rather than the death penalty. Darrow based his argument on the claim that his clients weren't completely responsible for their actions, but were the products of the environment they grew up in, and that they could not be held responsible for basing their desire for murder in the proto-existentialist philosophy of Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche. In the end, the judge sentenced Leopold and Loeb to life in prison rather than sending them to be executed.

During the Leopold-Loeb trial, when Darrow was believed to have accepted "a million-dollar fee", many ordinary Americans were angered at his apparent betrayal, thinking that he had "sold-out." He issued a public statement stating that there would be no large legal fees and that his fees would be determined by a committee composed of officers from the Chicago Bar Association. After trial, Darrow suggested $200,000 would be reasonable. After lengthy negotiations with the defendant's families, he ended up getting $70,000 in gross fees, which, after expenses and taxes, netted Darrow $30,000.[6]

 

[Sophie]

Just finished reading 'Leopold & Loeb: The Crime of the Century.' Excellent book but actually did little to persuade me of the JBR murderer being a Leopold & Loeb copycat. Ty, though, Voynich - all adds to the debate on the case.

 

[cami]

Mr. Ramsey

Listen carefully! As you no doubt know by this time, your daughter has been kidnapped. Allow us to assure you that she is at present well and safe. if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter. You need fear no physical harm for her, provided you line up carefully to the following instructions and to such others as you will receive by furture comminications. Should you, however, disobey any of our instructions, even slightly, will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.

For obvious reasons make absolutely no attempt to communicate with either police authorities or any private agency. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities. You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.

Secure before noon today $10,000. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested

Have the money with you, prepared as directed above, I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. See that the telephone is not in use.You will receive a further communication instructing you as to your final course.

As a final word of warning, this is an extremely commercial proposition and we are prepared to put our threat into execution should we have reasonable grounds to believe that you have committed an infraction of the above instructions. Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Don't underestimate us John.

You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back

If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange and earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery pick-up of your daughter. should you carefully follow out our instructions to the letter, we can assure you that you daughter will be safely returned to you within six hours of our receipt of the money. Use that good southern common sense of yours. It is up to you now John!

Yours truly,
ROIDI

Patsy Ramsey wrote the RN. She wrote it with her left hand. Read some of her earlier and later (before and after murder) correspondence and it all fits. She probably had no clue who L&L were. I don't see the connection.

 

[cami]

Just finished reading 'Leopold & Loeb: The Crime of the Century.' Excellent book but actually did little to persuade me of the JBR murderer being a Leopold & Loeb copycat. Ty, though, Voynich - all adds to the debate on the case.

A copycat?? LOL, How many years later? Ridiculous

 

[voynich]

Patsy Ramsey wrote the RN. She wrote it with her left hand. Read some of her earlier and later (before and after murder) correspondence and it all fits. She probably had no clue who L&L were. I don't see the connection.

1- The author of the RN knew of L&L RN.
2- PR did NOT know of L&L

ergo,
PR did NOT write the RN

Since neither PR nor JR wrote the RN,

IDI

 

[Albert18]

Patsy Ramsey wrote the RN. She wrote it with her left hand. Read some of her earlier and later (before and after murder) correspondence and it all fits. She probably had no clue who L&L were. I don't see the connection.

Thank you cami. I don't know how this can be so difficult.

 

[BBB167893]

Thank you cami. I don't know how this can be so difficult.

Me neither.

 

[voynich]

Patsy Ramsey wrote the RN. She wrote it with her left hand. Read some of her earlier and later (before and after murder) correspondence and it all fits.

Could you provide me with specific evidence? (i.e left hand writing + correspondence)

 

[BBB167893]

1- The author of the RN knew of L&L RN.
2- PR did NOT know of L&L

ergo,
PR did NOT write the RN

Since neither PR nor JR wrote the RN,

IDI

Not that it matters, but if I said something like that, HOTYH would be all over me for "posting claims as facts." And he would be right.

 

[voynich]

Not that it matters, but if I said something like that, HOTYH would be all over me for "posting claims as facts." And he would be right.

I'd do a three stooges dun moch on you all.

 

[BBB167893]

I'd do a three stooges dun moch on you all.

Ah, the Three Stooges Triple-Slap! In all seriousness, I meant what I said.

 

[voynich]

Ah, the Three Stooges Triple-Slap! In all seriousness, I meant what I said.

So was I,
the handwriting may or may not be PR, hard to say, phrases like AND HENCE don't seem all that unique, the author knew of L&L RN, it seems unlikely PR would be so ergo an intruder wrote it.

 

[BBB167893]

So was I,
the handwriting may or may not be PR, hard to say,

From an academic standpoint, yeah.

phrases like AND HENCE don't seem all that unique,

They are, though. I've only seen it twice outside of this case.

the author knew of L&L RN, it seems unlikely PR would be so ergo an intruder wrote it.

Claims posted as fact. (HOTYH's hating my guts right now!)

 

[voynich]

From an academic standpoint, yeah.



They are, though. I've only seen it twice outside of this case.


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[voynich]

I did have a post where I showed similarities in language between L&L RN and JB RN.

While I can't prove PR didn't know of L&L RN, it seems more likely an intruder would know of L&L & Hollywood thriller-ransom themed movies than a Southern belle.

 

[BBB167893]

I did have a post where I showed similarities in language between L&L RN and JB RN.

While I can't prove PR didn't know of L&L RN, it seems more likely an intruder would know of L&L & Hollywood thriller-ransom themed movies than a Southern belle.

I suppose I could ask whether the Southern belle image she tried to project matches the real person, but I don't think I'd get anywhere. But what I WILL do is remind you that the South is no stranger to such crimes. Does the name Mary Phagan mean anything to you? She's even buried in the same cemetary as JB.