Rebecca and the 'rescue breaths'

[*Lash*]

Zinn - We have very similar opinions. I also believe the message was directed towards Jonah. I feel the same as you. I want to know when RZ used the word CPR. I will admit it will not change my view that RZ was murdered. It could give us a better understanding of what Max's loved ones may have been thinking during this tragic time.

 

[MyBelle]

Why did it take Dr. Peterson 4 days to bring up his concerns to LE? Why did he not bring it up until after RZ was dead? What took so long.

As for MS's cause of death, the ME listed it as anoxic ischemic encephalopathy due to head injury and cervical spinal cord contusion. The ME specifically stated that the contusion to MS's spine caused his heart and lungs to stop. The EMT's were unable to restart his heart/circulation with CPR.

I don't question the doctor's expertise or his professionalism. I also don't believe he was aware ahead of time that RZ would kill herself.

The EMT report makes it clear that Max's heart was restarted. CPR maintains circulation of oxygenated blood from the lungs to the heart and the brain while attempts are made to restart the heart. It was successful.

If indeed only a few minutes had elapsed between Max's fall and the arrival of EMT's, he would not have suffered total brain death, imo.

JMO

 

[Charterhouse]

I wonder since RNZ "rescue breaths" (no compressions) were unsuccessful if that was the reason that the paramedics stated CPR was not started. JMO but I don't think the paramedics felt it was important at the time to state CPR was not started to support a court case or lawsuit. Maybe they could have said unsuccessful rescue breaths were attempted.

If I remember correctly the paramedics had a hard time getting Max back. It was not just a matter of giving him CPR.

 

[MyBelle]

I wonder since RNZ "rescue breaths" (no compressions) were unsuccessful if that was the reason that the paramedics stated CPR was not started. JMO but I don't think the paramedics felt it was important at the time to state CPR was not started to support a court case or lawsuit. Maybe they could have said unsuccessful rescue breaths were attempted.

If I remember correctly the paramedics had a hard time getting Max back. It was not just a matter of giving him CPR.

Lack of CPR was noted in the EMT report so I think it was significant to the paramedic who submitted the report.

They used CPR to continue circulation while they employed advanced measures to restart his heart. They only were successful in restarting his heart to the normal rhythmn. They could not undo the total brain damage, unfortunately.

JMO

 

[Inparadise]

I wonder since RNZ "rescue breaths" (no compressions) were unsuccessful if that was the reason that the paramedics stated CPR was not started. JMO but I don't think the paramedics felt it was important at the time to state CPR was not started to support a court case or lawsuit. Maybe they could have said unsuccessful rescue breaths were attempted.

If I remember correctly the paramedics had a hard time getting Max back. It was not just a matter of giving him CPR.

The EMTs got Max's heart started with 2 or 3 rounds of epi.

 

[Betty P]

I don't question the doctor's expertise or his professionalism. I also don't believe he was aware ahead of time that RZ would kill herself.

The EMT report makes it clear that Max's heart was restarted. CPR maintains circulation of oxygenated blood from the lungs to the heart and the brain while attempts are made to restart the heart. It was successful.

If indeed only a few minutes had elapsed between Max's fall and the arrival of EMT's, he would not have suffered total brain death, imo.

JMO

Remember, the EMT's were only able to restart Max's heart after 2 successive injections of epinephrine. Due to Max's vomiting and the need to continually suction his airway, they were unable to effectively perform CPR, they were also unable to intubate him.

Max's vomiting, along with concern about protecting his injured neck/spine made CPR pretty much impossible.

http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf

The fact that Dr. Peterson didn't know RZ would die isn't germane. What is unusual is that he felt the need to contact LE about his incorrect diagnosis of Max's problem after RZ was dead.

What would be the point of asking LE to investigate her if she was dead?

Did Dr. Peterson think someone else was responsible for causing his erroneous diagnosis of Max - suffocation?

When and how many conversations did Dr. Peterson have w/ the Shacknai/Romano family members about his erroneous diagnosis before reporting it to LE 4 days after the accident?

How can anyone claim RZ committed suicide because she was under investigation for child abuse when the Dr. didn't report anything to LE until after she died?

 

[time]

I agree with most of what you've said here. Where we differ, and where I feel I am likely in the minority of posters, is that I suspect Rebecca was murdered in an act of violence against both Rebecca and JS. I don't mean to minimize the fact that RZ lost her life in a brutal manner while JS was not physically harmed at all, but it's impossible for me to consider the scene of Rebecca's death and the message on the door without considering the intended audience (who I believe to be JS).

I agree that the whole CPR vs. rescue breaths thing may have transpired like the telephone game. And I agree that the terms used would not have changed the outcome for Max. But given the fact that nobody (on this thread, anyway) has validated the previously stated claims that Rebecca herself used the term "CPR," I think it's interesting to note NR stated several times that the source of the CPR information was JS. If I seem to be dwelling on this topic, it's because I feel the message painted on the door was likely a reflection of this conflict.

All of the above is just my opinion.

I hate to say it this way, but DITTO! I agree completely.

And, I fear the whole lack of CPR thing, while probably meaningless, played a big role in Rebecca being murdered, especially mixed with any hint by a doctor (staff, anyone) claiming Max was possibly suffocated.

This is why I don't put as much stock in the other stuff like Rebecca covering anything, other kids there, Rebecca changing a story, Jonah actually being there, etc. I don't think it would take too much to set off a chain of deadly events and the whole CPR/suffocation thing would have been enough.

Unless we get some key piece of info saying otherwise, which would be fine, I choose to follow Occam's razor (I hate that term for some reason but it fits). I think Max's death is explainable by an accident, although some details really need to be worked out, and that what we know already tells us there was great motive to possibly murder Rebecca AND her death screams out murder.

 

[coastal]

Remember, the EMT's were only able to restart Max's heart after 2 successive injections of epinephrine. Due to Max's vomiting and the need to continually suction his airway, they were unable to effectively perform CPR, they were also unable to intubate him.

Max's vomiting, along with concern about protecting his injured neck/spine made CPR pretty much impossible.

http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf

The fact that Dr. Peterson didn't know RZ would die isn't germane. What is unusual is that he felt the need to contact LE about his incorrect diagnosis of Max's problem after RZ was dead.

What would be the point of asking LE to investigate her if she was dead?

Did Dr. Peterson think someone else was responsible for causing his erroneous diagnosis of Max - suffocation?

When and how many conversations did Dr. Peterson have w/ the Shacknai/Romano family members about his erroneous diagnosis before reporting it to LE 4 days after the accident?

How can anyone claim RZ committed suicide because she was under investigation for child abuse when the Dr. didn't report anything to LE until after she died?

My bold. Thank you, Betty P!

 

[MyBelle]

Remember, the EMT's were only able to restart Max's heart after 2 successive injections of epinephrine. Due to Max's vomiting and the need to continually suction his airway, they were unable to effectively perform CPR, they were also unable to intubate him. Max's vomiting, along with concern about protecting his injured neck/spine made CPR pretty much impossible.

http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf

The fact that Dr. Peterson didn't know RZ would die isn't germane. What is unusual is that he felt the need to contact LE about his incorrect diagnosis of Max's problem after RZ was dead.

What would be the point of asking LE to investigate her if she was dead?

Did Dr. Peterson think someone else was responsible for causing his erroneous diagnosis of Max - suffocation?

When and how many conversations did Dr. Peterson have w/ the Shacknai/Romano family members about his erroneous diagnosis before reporting it to LE 4 days after the accident?

How can anyone claim RZ committed suicide because she was under investigation for child abuse when the Dr. didn't report anything to LE until after she died?

BBM. <modsnip> understand the EMT report. They did perform effective CPR and thus were able to restart the heart. CPR includes compressions of the heart to circulate the blood. Max's airway was not totally blocked.

<modsnip> the conclusion on what triggered RZ's suicide, which, iirc, LE said was Max's deteriorating condition.

JMO

 

[Ausgirl]

Why did it take Dr. Peterson 4 days to bring up his concerns to LE? Why did he not bring it up until after RZ was dead? What took so long.

That's a very good question. I wonder what the required protocol on calling CPS in the case of suspected abuse of a hospitalised child is, in California? I have no clue. But I'd imagine it's likely to encourage doctors to report suspected abuse immediately?

I'm not sold on Max's death being entirely an accident (or 'an accident that happened as reported', either), yet. But if there was a perception (true or not) that CPR was not performed, and that abuse was suspected - then that ups the ante for a murder motive in Rebecca's case, quite significantly. Depending on exactly who was informed of all this, and when, of course...

Not speculating on WHO might have murdered her, here. Just saying - it goes significantly toward motive.

 

[*Lash*]

That's a very good question. I wonder what the required protocol on calling CPS in the case of suspected abuse of a hospitalised child is, in California? I have no clue. But I'd imagine it's likely to encourage doctors to report suspected abuse immediately?

I'm not sold on Max's death being entirely an accident (or 'an accident that happened as reported', either), yet. But if there was a perception (true or not) that CPR was not performed, and that abuse was suspected - then that ups the ante for a murder motive in Rebecca's case, quite significantly. Depending on exactly who was informed of all this, and when, of course...

Not speculating on WHO might have murdered her, here. Just saying - it goes significantly toward motive.

According to Nina's interview - The origin of 'possible suffocation' came from Dr. Peterson on Thursday. According to Nina, Dr. Peterson also elaborates on whether CPR was given in two minutes. I'm curious if the 'CPR in 2 mins' was a conversation iniated by Dr. Peterson or was it a question addressed to Dr. Peterson by Jonah or Dina? In my opinion, I believe Dr. Peterson was asked about 'CPR in 2 mins' by the family. It is also important to note that Nina was not in this meeting with Dr. Peterson. This would not have been a discussion Nina heard first hand.

CROSSTALK:
So how did this whole suffocation thing come up with the doctor and when did he tell you? Kind of run me through the timeline of that.

NINA:
So it was a, Max had a consult on Wednesday and this was really, this was after Rebecca had passed, that he had this cardiac consult and that he had a MRI to find out the extent of the damage Wednesday morning was when we found out, Wednesday morning afternoon was when we found out the actual extent of the damage. And it was shocking. Just to back up a little bit, when my sister told me a little bit about what happened to with what happened to Rebecca, the first thing that was said was, why she hung herself with what? We don't even know what's going on with Max, what do what are you talking about what? It was very bizarre, it was very very bizarre. And we found out Wednesday the extent of his damage, which was that his brain was gone. So, then Thursday Dr. Peterson had a meeting with Dina and Jonah and said that the extent of the damage in Max's brain there was no way that he could have had CPR within 2 minutes, it was impossible to have had CPR within 2 minutes without any oxygen it was impossible so my sister said what could cause this? What could cause a 6 year old to go into full cardiac arrest, a healthy 6 year old to go into full cardiac arrest. And he said its possible suffocation. And that's how it came up.

Audio - http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/nina_romano.mp3

 

[*Lash*]

Origin of the 'CPR in 2 mins' according to Nina's interview - In my opinion, she told me, that he told her, that she told him, equals the telephone game.

CROSSTALK:
And where did the two minutes originally from? Back up and tell me where you first heard that?

NINA:
My sister had told me that Jonah had told her that Rebecca told him that she had started doing CPR within 2 minutes of falling down the stairs.

Audio - http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/nina_romano.mp3

 

[*Lash*]

During Nina's phone interview she was questioned about the 911 call and if there was any indication Max was receiving CPR. Why did Nina answer no? We clearly heard from the snip of the the 911 tape XZ tell the dispatcher RZ was trying to resuscitate him Max.

CROSSTALK:
Was there any indication from the 911 call that XZ made related to Max, that they were doing CPR or they were giving instructions to Rebecca on how to do CPR or what? (Nina interrupts 'no') Walk me through what you heard on that 911 call.

NINA:
The 911 call was very strange. It um , it was uh XZ calling. It was strange. It was a really really strange phone call because first they asked "this is 911 what's your emergency" and she said that that Max had fallen down the stairs and the 911 operator said initially they weren't getting a clear picture because first she said he was breathing and then she said he wasn't breathing then they're asking the address and Rebecca was in the background saying '1040 Ocean 1040 Ocean', it's 1043 Ocean Blvd, so they got the address wrong and then through out a lot of phone call XZ wasn't talking. It was really strange, the operator was saying you know 'hello are you there hello?' and XZ would say 'yes', 'is he still breathing?', 'yes', 'okay he is breathing?', 'yes', 'are you sure?', 'no'. It was bizarre. There were these long pauses between her answers. And then when it gets to the point where they say he's not breathing, you hear Rebecca in the background and she's sounding kind of (pause) frantic, and then all of a sudden you hear like XZ stop talking, like literally stop talking and then the 911 operator saying 'hello hello" and you hear Rebecca say 'are they still on the phone' and you hear XZ say 'yes'. Then all of a sudden you hear the dog barking, we're like 3/4 of the way through the phonecall, you hear the dog barking all of a sudden.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/nina_romano.mp3

 

[MyBelle]

During Nina's phone interview she was questioned about the 911 call and if there was any indication Max was receiving CPR. Why did Nina answer no? We clearly heard from the snip of the the 911 tape XZ tell the dispatcher RZ was trying to resuscitate him Max.

Perhaps Nina had read the paramedic's report that clearly states no CPR was done.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

BBM. <modsnip> the EMT report. They did perform effective CPR and thus were able to restart the heart. CPR includes compressions of the heart to circulate the blood. Max's airway was not totally blocked.

<modsnip> the conclusion on what triggered RZ's suicide, which, iirc, LE said was Max's deteriorating condition.

JMO

It's been alleged numerous times in this forum that RZ was "nervous" "worried" etc. before her "suicide" because she was under investigation by LE for causing Max's death.

Now that we know LE wasn't contacted about Dr. Peterson's concerns over his mistaken belief that MS was suffocated until 2 days after she died, we should presume we won't hear those accusations again.

MS's autopsy states he died due to lack of oxygen as a result of the injury to his spinal cord where it connects to the brain stem - a severe injury that, by itself, causes the heart and lungs to stop.

The autopsy does not support the theory that he was suffocated prior to his injury, nor does it support the theory he was killed in advance and thrown over the balcony to make it look like an accident.

 

[Betty P]

Their son's future depended on physicians knowing how long the child had been without oxygen and you think his father and mother were playing some kind of game? Seriously, I'm not understanding why you portray either parent so negatively. It was Rady Hospital, not the parents, who contacted CPS about concerns.

JMO

Sadly, Max's prognosis was poor from the very beginning and his doctors knew that. Knowing exactly how long he had been deprived of oxygen wasn't going to change is prognosis.

The parents interest in who, what, when, during the two minutes between the call to 911 and the arrival of the Coronado PD officer wasn't related to his recovery or survival. We can't know their minds, but Max's parents seemed to be looking for someone or something on which to blame his death.

As for CPR for someone with Max's injuries, there are important questions for lay people to ask:

1. How do you administer "rescue breaths" to a victim who is convulsing and vomiting profusely?

2. How do you perform chest compressions on a victim who is convulsing and appears to have a broken neck?

I'm not sure what I would do in that situation.

 

[MyBelle]

It's been alleged numerous times in this forum that RZ was "nervous" "worried" etc. before her "suicide" because she was under investigation by LE for causing Max's death.

Now that we know LE wasn't contacted about Dr. Peterson's concerns over his mistaken belief that MS was suffocated, we should presume we won't hear those accusations again.
MS's autopsy states he died due to lack of oxygen as a result of the injury to his spinal cord where it connects to the brain stem - a severe injury that, by itself, causes the heart and lungs to stop.

The autopsy does not support the theory that he was suffocated prior to his injury, nor does it support the theory he was killed in advance and thrown over the balcony to make it look like an accident.

BBM. This simply is not true, Betty. According to the search warrant that has been linked, Rady Hospital reported Dr. Peterson's concerns about child abuse. The doctor told the detective that the description of the incident did not match Max's visible injuries as was required by law and the investigation into child abuse was opened.

The autopsy report is also a medical opinion but it does not refute Dr. Peterson's concerns that the description of the incident did not match the child's visible injuries.

I've never before seen posters bash an esteemed doctor because he expressed concerns to authorities about suspected child abuse.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

BBM. This simply is not true, Betty. According to the search warrant that has been linked, Rady Hospital reported Dr. Peterson's concerns about child abuse. The doctor told the detective that the description of the incident did not match Max's visible injuries as was required by law and the investigation into child abuse was opened.

The autopsy report is also a medical opinion but it does not refute Dr. Peterson's concerns that the description of the incident did not match the child's visible injuries.

I've never before seen posters bash an esteemed doctor because he expressed concerns to authorities about suspected child abuse.

JMO

Typo, corrected. Dr. Peterson didn't contact LE about his concerns until 2 days after RZ's death.

And yes, the autopsy report does refute Dr. Peterson's claims. I recall the ME discussing this during his press conference. He stated they were unable to ascertain the full nature of damage to Max's spinal cord (unplugging from the brainstem) until they performed the autopsy. Once they saw the damage, they understood that MS's heart and respiration both stopped within moments of his impact on the floor.

I remember the press conference well because I wondered how the docs were unable to see that spinal cord damage on CAT scans and MRI's and only detected it during autopsy. But once the autopsy was completed and the spinal cord damage was visible to them, they were certain that was the source of the problem with heart and breathing from the moment of impact.

 

[MyBelle]

Sadly, Max's prognosis was poor from the very beginning and his doctors knew that. Knowing exactly how long he had been deprived of oxygen wasn't going to change is prognosis.

The parents interest in who, what, when, during the two minutes between the call to 911 and the arrival of the Coronado PD officer wasn't related to his recovery or survival. We can't know their minds, but Max's parents seemed to be looking for someone or something on which to blame his death.

As for CPR for someone with Max's injuries, there are important questions for lay people to ask:

1. How do you administer "rescue breaths" to a victim who is convulsing and vomiting profusely?

2. How do you perform chest compressions on a victim who is convulsing and appears to have a broken neck?

I'm not sure what I would do in that situation.

The paramedics, physicians and parents interest in knowing how long Max was without oxygen was very important. People do survive head injuries. Knowing exactly how long Max was without oxygen would greatly impact his prognosis. A dead brain isn't going to improve.

Rescue breaths are not one breath given continuously. Chest compressions can be given successfully as were given to Max. I urge you to obtain training in CPR to understand the process.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Typo, corrected. Dr. Peterson didn't contact LE about his concerns until 2 days after RZ's death.

And yes, the autopsy report does refute Dr. Peterson's claims. I recall the ME discussing this during his press conference. He stated they were unable to ascertain the full nature of damage to Max's spinal cord (unplugging from the brainstem) until they performed the autopsy. Once they saw the damage, they understood that MS's heart and respiration both stopped within moments of his impact on the floor.

I remember the press conference well because I wondered how the docs were unable to see that spinal cord damage on CAT scans and MRI's and only detected it during autopsy. But once the autopsy was completed and the spinal cord damage was visible to them, they were certain that was the source of the problem with heart and breathing from the moment of impact.

Again, you are incorrect. A social worker at Rady Hospital--not Dr. Peterson-- contacted CPS. At that point in time, Max was still alive and the ME was not involved.

The AR did not refute Dr. Peterson's concern he told the detective that the description of the incident did not fit Max's injuries.

JMO