Red Hearts

[Jayelles]

Obviously she didn't follow even the evening news and she rarely read books. John couldn't name a single book she'd read. ST was the one who decided she was well-educated. Neither has ever struck me as having much intellectual curiosity and that includes following the news.

Are you kidding? "ST was the one who ddecided she was well-educated"? You don't think her university MIGHT have had something to do with that when they awarded her Magna Laude? Plus her degree is in Journalism - have you any idea how much reading is reqauired for a Journalism course?

Patsy is well-educated and well read. Her credentials tell us all we need to know. I doubt John Ramsey would ever qualify as a candidate for Mr & Mrs.

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't believe that Burke owned hi tecs with a compass, however he could have owned any brand of "compass shoe". Something about the building of the "shoe story" never rang true.

sissi,

Both John and Patsy deny, by way of amnesia and obfuscations, that Burke owned Hi-Tec boots, but they are obviously lying to shield Burke from this incriminating evidence. (A Hi-Tec boot logo imprint was found just one foot from JonBenet's body in the basement.) But Burke himself admitted to the grand jury that he owned Hi-Tecs, and they had a compass built into the shoestrings. Here's the Q's and A's from the 2000 interviews in Atlanta:

Q. "We have been provided, and again, one of the sources of this information is confidential grand jury material I can tell you, but we have been provided information from two sources that your son Burke, prior to the murder of your daughter, owned and wore Hi-Tec boots that had a compass on them, which makes them distinctive. Do you recall Burke having boots that had a compass on the laces?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Vaguely. I don't know if they were boots or tennis shoes."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Q. "I will state this as a fact. There are two people who have provided us with information, includidng your son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the murder of your daughter."

(numerous interruptions by Lin Wood)

Q. "Fleet Junior also says that he had Hi-Tec shoes."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Okay. Is, are you talking like Hi-Tec like -- ?"


(From this point the fake amnesia and the obfuscations regarding the Hi-Tec boots went on and on for question after question, along with frequent long-winded interruptions by Lin Wood.)

The Ramseys are denying something that their son Burke and Fleet White III have plainly admitted to.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

Are you kidding? "ST was the one who ddecided she was well-educated"? You don't think her university MIGHT have had something to do with that when they awarded her Magna Laude? Plus her degree is in Journalism - have you any idea how much reading is reqauired for a Journalism course?

Patsy is well-educated and well read. Her credentials tell us all we need to know. I doubt John Ramsey would ever qualify as a candidate for Mr & Mrs.

Patsy Ramsey was a typical woman in her time and place and punched her ticket for a 4 year degree. That she was an obedient girl and always did her homework got her the Magna Laude. Based on her interviews and what people have said about her interests I don't think she had either an intellectual or an inquisitive mind outside the confines of her world.

1998

3 TOM HANEY: What kind of reading did you do? 4 Are you a Tom Clancey, Steven King? 5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. 6 TOM HANEY: What kind of books? 7 PATSY RAMSEY: To tell you the truth, I don't 8 know that I read all that much. I mean, I read a lot 9 of magazines and that kind of thing. I read the 10 Mitsford (phonetic) books, but I think that was after 11 Susan Stine got me those. 12 TOM HANEY: What is that? 13 PATSY RAMSEY: It is a series of books about 14 a small town priest and they are just really sweet. It 15 is hard to find a book that doesn't have something to 16 do with murder or something like that, you know. These 17 were very nice. 18 TOM HANEY: And that is what you prefer now. 19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. 20 TOM HANEY: You said you read a lot of 21 magazines, what? 22 PATSY RAMSEY: Southern Living, Southern 23 Accent kind of stuff, decorating kind of.

Amazon review

"Call me crazy, but I'd LOVE to live in Mitford--a place where nothing happens but your occasional dog-napping, jewel-thievering, and finding strangers in your attic.

Sound boring? Oh, but what a nice, calming change of pace that would be! Jan Karon has written a terrific, wholesome story about a small village in North Carolina where wonderful and sometimes strange things happen. Written through the eyes of the Episcopalian priest, Father Tim shows us a refreshingly old-fashioned life where goodness and kindheartedness prevails. You get to meet many lively and eccentric characters who quickly become your friends and who make life in Mitford such a pleasure and a privilege.

At Home in Mitford is the perfect diversion from the hustle and bustle of our busy lives. A calm, relaxing novel full of charm and sassy wit that "celebrates ordinary people leading ordinary lives." Though not for everyone, especially for those who need lots of action in their reading, this novel goes down like a cool glass of lemonade on a hot summer day. Enjoy!"

For some reason I can't get the interview to format correctly. Sorry.

 

[Jayelles]

Patsy Ramsey was a typical woman in her time and place and punched her ticket for a 4 year degree. That she was an obedient girl and always did her homework got her the Magna Laude. Based on her interviews and what people have said about her interests I don't think she had either an intellectual or an inquisitive mind outside the confines of her world.

1998

3 TOM HANEY: What kind of reading did you do? 4 Are you a Tom Clancey, Steven King? 5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. 6 TOM HANEY: What kind of books? 7 PATSY RAMSEY: To tell you the truth, I don't 8 know that I read all that much. I mean, I read a lot 9 of magazines and that kind of thing. I read the 10 Mitsford (phonetic) books, but I think that was after 11 Susan Stine got me those. 12 TOM HANEY: What is that? 13 PATSY RAMSEY: It is a series of books about 14 a small town priest and they are just really sweet. It 15 is hard to find a book that doesn't have something to 16 do with murder or something like that, you know. These 17 were very nice. 18 TOM HANEY: And that is what you prefer now. 19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. 20 TOM HANEY: You said you read a lot of 21 magazines, what? 22 PATSY RAMSEY: Southern Living, Southern 23 Accent kind of stuff, decorating kind of.

Amazon review

"Call me crazy, but I'd LOVE to live in Mitford--a place where nothing happens but your occasional dog-napping, jewel-thievering, and finding strangers in your attic.

Sound boring? Oh, but what a nice, calming change of pace that would be! Jan Karon has written a terrific, wholesome story about a small village in North Carolina where wonderful and sometimes strange things happen. Written through the eyes of the Episcopalian priest, Father Tim shows us a refreshingly old-fashioned life where goodness and kindheartedness prevails. You get to meet many lively and eccentric characters who quickly become your friends and who make life in Mitford such a pleasure and a privilege.

At Home in Mitford is the perfect diversion from the hustle and bustle of our busy lives. A calm, relaxing novel full of charm and sassy wit that "celebrates ordinary people leading ordinary lives." Though not for everyone, especially for those who need lots of action in their reading, this novel goes down like a cool glass of lemonade on a hot summer day. Enjoy!"

For some reason I can't get the interview to format correctly. Sorry.

I think the difference between us Tipper is that I am making my judgement on what Patsy has done rather than what she has said during police interviews in which she was very keen not to portray herself as a potential murder or writer of the ransom note!

The FACT is that she chose a degree programme which is all about the written word, a programme which requires its students to read, read, read and write, write, write. A google search of Journalism will churn up many hits which include the words "Pre-requisite" + "Love of reading". Not only did she choose this programme - she excelled at it. You cannot excel at something unless your heart and soul is in it.

One of the web pages I came across spoke specifically about the amount of reading which was involved in a particular journalism course. The blogger spoke of having to read "100s" of pages per night. I'm not certain if this is an exaggeration or not.

My daughter loves Literature and is an avid reader. She applied to Law school but considered either English Literature or Journalism as alternatives should she fail to get into law school. She figured these would be the two degree programmes which would indulge her love of reading.


I simply don't understand the apparent need to distance the Ramseys from every tiny fact which might remotely connect them to the murder.

 

[Eagle1]

Does anyone know if the heart drawn around John Ramsey's face on the business program was in red ink?

I wonder if this heart was compared to what most people believe is a red heart on JonBenet's palm.

Come to think of it, did anyone compare the LINES of the two hearts to see if they both look to be drawn by the same person?

 

[Eagle1]

Has anyone seen this organizations logo?

http://www.stopitnow.com/index.html

It's quite a coincidence, if it is coincidence, that this organization's logo is a heart in a hand.

I forget who said they contacted them but didn't get an answer. Any ideas for turning this situation around? Has anyone mentioned it at Jameson's? She/they might like to find out (?) Anyone go there?

Seeker, would our mutual friend know anything about this? I think my inbox is probably full so what the heck, I'll just ask you here.

 

[Amity]

One of the many things that always puzzled me was the red ink on JB's hand and why LE was so intent on finding that red pen.

Then while at breakfast this morning, something happened and a light bulb went on.
While I was clearing the table, my husband, who was still lounging at the table over his cup of coffee and newspaper, stretched his neck to me with his lips puckered.
I leaned over so that he could kiss me...his way of telling me thank you for breakfast.
I asked him what was on tap for the day and continued leaning on the table toward him as he went through our list of household fix-ups.

It wasn't until I got to the sink to start washing dishes that I noticed the strange red blotch on my arm, just below my elbow.
I wondered what the heck did I bump into now?

A few minutes of retracing my steps and I realized it wasn't red because I bumped my arm, but because I had been leaning over/on the table to reach my husband and my arm had been resting on an ad page from the newspaper....I believe it was a Target Ad.
The red ink from one of the ads had transfered onto my forearm.

Could the red mark on JB's hand (which doesn't and never has looked like a heart to me either) have been transfer ink?
I heard so much about the search for the red pen but never heard if LE had considered any other possibility for the red 'ink' on JB's hand.

And if the red on her hand is transfer ink, then what we see is reveresed....shouldn't we be looking at it in a mirror since the transfer on her hand would be reversed?
I don't have a small enough mirror to hold in front of the computer screen or I would.
But I was just wondering if looking at the red ink on JB's hand via a mirror wouldn't give us a whole new prospective.

My apologies if this has been brought up before.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm not a bit surprised that no red pen leaving the mark on JB's hand was found in the Ramsey home. My theory, if it is an ink mark, is that it was drawn on JB's hand by either JB herself or one of her friends over at the Whites house. It's possible she was sitting and coloring with her friend Daphne and it was drawn on then.


It doesn't say in DOI what JB was doing all through the time the Ramseys were at the Whites' party, it just makes mention of what the adults were doing...even when they describe that Fleet and JR were sitting on the ground helping JB and Daphne White assemble paper beads from a children's jewelry kit, there is no elaboration as to how JB is enjoying her Christmas or her time at the party.

This is one of my major complaints about DOI. It's all about the adults, John and Patsy and their thoughts and feelings, and very little of the book was actually about JonBenet herself at all. They spent too much time discussing her as an object and a source of their turmoil (at the hands of the media and law enforcement) after her death than as a cherished and loved child prior to her death. Even when Patsy is talking about JB as a baby, she goes much more into herself than she does the child. I found this to be rather odd and self-centered.

 

[simplesimon]

One of the things that has always puzzled me is the red mark on the left front of the neck. Could the red mark on JBR's hand be a mark caused by holding on to whatever was on her neck? If she was trying to free herself? I do not know the measurements of mark on her neck or the red mark on her hand but could it be caused by the same thing?

I know Zman agrees that it was a red ink mark and BC thinks it was a mark caused by something.

 

[tipper]

I'm not a bit surprised that no red pen leaving the mark on JB's hand was found in the Ramsey home. My theory, if it is an ink mark, is that it was drawn on JB's hand by either JB herself or one of her friends over at the Whites house. It's possible she was sitting and coloring with her friend Daphne and it was drawn on then.


It doesn't say in DOI what JB was doing all through the time the Ramseys were at the Whites' party, it just makes mention of what the adults were doing...even when they describe that Fleet and JR were sitting on the ground helping JB and Daphne White assemble paper beads from a children's jewelry kit, there is no elaboration as to how JB is enjoying her Christmas or her time at the party.

This is one of my major complaints about DOI. It's all about the adults, John and Patsy and their thoughts and feelings, and very little of the book was actually about JonBenet herself at all. They spent too much time discussing her as an object and a source of their turmoil (at the hands of the media and law enforcement) after her death than as a cherished and loved child prior to her death. Even when Patsy is talking about JB as a baby, she goes much more into herself than she does the child. I found this to be rather odd and self-centered.

I think its highly possible the heart? was drawn while at the Whites. I wonder if BPD thought to ask Daphne.

As far as DOI goes - What I liked about it is it tells what was going on after the murder from the adult Ramsey perspective. I wasn't interested in a biography of JonBenet or a book filled with family memories of cute things she did. I didn't get a sense they talked about her as an object or source of their turmoil. There were many sources of their turmoil; the tabs, BPD, the public.

 

[aussiesheila]

There's nothing in the autopsy report that states the "drawing" on the palm of JonBenet's left hand was analyzed or specimens taken. It appears John Meyer assumed it was a red ink drawing scribbled by a child and let it go at that.

IMO it wasn't an ink drawing at all, and it didn't look anything like a heart. My guess is it was a bruise from an irregularly-shaped object with sharp edges. It turned red, as do most such contusions.

BlueCrab

Apparently there are posters who believe that by viewing a photograph, they are better able to assess what the mark on JonBenet’s hand was than the coroner who examined the actual mark on the body.

A coroner is a professional who is trained to examine in great detail and record with a high degree of accuracy. The coroner who examined the body said it was a red ink drawing in the shape of a heart. As far as I know this has not been disputed by any other professional who also examined the body. IMO it can be reasonably assumed to be fact.

Maybe later in the examination part of the drawing was swabbed with a small amount of water to see whether the ink used was water-soluble or ‘permanent’. Maybe a little of the drawing was washed off making the heart appear in the photo as a G, at the same time demonstrating also that the heart shape was drawn on the skin and was not a contusion within it.

Maybe the fact that a red pen was not found at the house does not indicate that there was no heart drawn on her hand that night; but rather indicates that the red pen that was used was removed from the house by the intruder-sexual-abuser-killer-heart-drawer.

And maybe, just maybe, the red ink heart was drawn on the victim’s palm as part of the prepping for a session of ritual sexual abuse.

 

[Toltec]

Tipper....Patsy got a degree in J O U R N A L I S M.

Magna Laude.

Enough said.

 

[Zman]

One of the things that has always puzzled me is the red mark on the left front of the neck. Could the red mark on JBR's hand be a mark caused by holding on to whatever was on her neck? If she was trying to free herself? I do not know the measurements of mark on her neck or the red mark on her hand but could it be caused by the same thing?

I know Zman agrees that it was a red ink mark and BC thinks it was a mark caused by something.

What do you mean agree? The autopsy confirms it. The only man to look at the body says it's there and says it clearly. It's not up for discussion. In a case with few facts and evidence we don't need to blur what is fact.

 

[capps]

What do you mean agree? The autopsy confirms it. The only man to look at the body says it's there and says it clearly. It's not up for discussion. In a case with few facts and evidence we don't need to blur what is fact.

Sounds good to me Zman.

 

[BlueCrab]

What do you mean agree? The autopsy confirms it. The only man to look at the body says it's there and says it clearly. It's not up for discussion. In a case with few facts and evidence we don't need to blur what is fact.

Zman,

It's also a fact that the cops searched high and low but no red pen was found in the house. Does that not blur your fact just a wee bit? And since the mark on the palm didn't look like a heart or even a drawing of any kind blur your fact just a wee bit more? And doesn't the fact that Meyer didn't take a smear of the red mark for microscopic examination further blur your fact?

 

[tipper]

Tipper....Patsy got a degree in J O U R N A L I S M.

Magna Laude.

Enough said.

She got it 18 years earlier. The suggestion was that she was well-educated and well read. She had a bachelor's degree - the lowest level of college education one can get. She has spent most of her married life focused on her children, her husband, redecorating houses, buying clothes, and entertaining. The books she read were light novels, decorating magazines and self-help books on healing. To me that doesn't equal well-read.

I've never read that she was involved in issues like the environment, local or national politics (except John's campaign), social problems and the like. It's possible she was highly involved and I just missed reading about it.

She reminds me of a particular type of southern woman. When we lived in the south (Alabama and Virginia) I met many of them. They all had degrees but as I said earlier - it was a ticket they were expected to get punched.

As you'll recall even Suzanne Sugarbaker was written with a bachelors degree from Ole Miss. "Best six years I ever spent."

 

[Zman]

Zman,

It's also a fact that the cops searched high and low but no red pen was found in the house. Does that not blur your fact just a wee bit? And since the mark on the palm didn't look like a heart or even a drawing of any kind blur your fact just a wee bit more? And doesn't the fact that Meyer didn't take a smear of the red mark for microscopic examination further blur your fact?

No. Nothing you mention changes the fact.

Nothing you ever mention changes a fact.

 

[trixie]

One of the many things that always puzzled me was the red ink on JB's hand and why LE was so intent on finding that red pen.

Then while at breakfast this morning, something happened and a light bulb went on.
While I was clearing the table, my husband, who was still lounging at the table over his cup of coffee and newspaper, stretched his neck to me with his lips puckered.
I leaned over so that he could kiss me...his way of telling me thank you for breakfast.
I asked him what was on tap for the day and continued leaning on the table toward him as he went through our list of household fix-ups.

It wasn't until I got to the sink to start washing dishes that I noticed the strange red blotch on my arm, just below my elbow.
I wondered what the heck did I bump into now?

A few minutes of retracing my steps and I realized it wasn't red because I bumped my arm, but because I had been leaning over/on the table to reach my husband and my arm had been resting on an ad page from the newspaper....I believe it was a Target Ad.
The red ink from one of the ads had transfered onto my forearm.

Could the red mark on JB's hand (which doesn't and never has looked like a heart to me either) have been transfer ink?
I heard so much about the search for the red pen but never heard if LE had considered any other possibility for the red 'ink' on JB's hand.

And if the red on her hand is transfer ink, then what we see is reveresed....shouldn't we be looking at it in a mirror since the transfer on her hand would be reversed?
I don't have a small enough mirror to hold in front of the computer screen or I would.
But I was just wondering if looking at the red ink on JB's hand via a mirror wouldn't give us a whole new prospective.

My apologies if this has been brought up before.

Just thinking out loud.

I don't know why this post was overlooked. I think this is an original idea, at least I've never read anyone else posting it. It's good to read some different ideas for a change. This case is so old and cold I wonder sometimes why I still keep up with it. Fresh ideas keep me intrested. Thanks Amity!

 

[simplesimon]

What do you mean agree? The autopsy confirms it. The only man to look at the body says it's there and says it clearly. It's not up for discussion. In a case with few facts and evidence we don't need to blur what is fact.

Hmm and here I thought this was a discussion board.

 

[Zman]

Hmm and here I thought this was a discussion board.

Well the corener claims that JBR was hit over the head. Maybe he's worng about that too. Maybe he dropped her on the floor causing that gash in her head or maybe it was never there. That picture could be someone else's skull. Maybe the underware were marked Thursday and not Wednesday? I wonder if the measurments of the rope are wrong too. And let's not even start that whole pinapple in the system story.

Maybe JBR's not even dead? Was it really JBR? Did he test her DNA?

I wonder.