Related Issues and Food for Thought

[Juballee]

I just saw this article and found it pretty shocking, yet possible relevant ,(even though it is American), so I thought I'd share it here;

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...hes-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades

It lead me to this equally shocking article;

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-and-how-it-could-be-killing-innocent-people/

I have to admit I had always assumed that there were very strict guidelines in regards to all forensic tests, that they were giving definitive and indisputable scientifically accurate answers, but it turns out that most sound hardly better than the polygraph test when it comes to scientific accuracy, it's just that no one has publicly challenged them like they did with they debunked lie detector tests. Scary!

 

[swedie]

Do we feel bad for the prisoners who earned their way into prisons or the innocent officers who are trying to do their jobs? As the suspended correctional Officer said, there is a lot of violence that happens daily.

The government didn't feel it was a serious enough offence to report to the officers' union? Had the officers seriously injured this prisoner while trying to detain him, there would be he!! to pay and a full blown inquiry along with lawsuits and possibly loss of jobs. MOO.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.2338627

 

[Arnie M]

.

A bit closer to home ......

Prominent Toronto pathologist exposed because of his many errors

...................................

(From the article) ..... For 24 years, Smith worked at Toronto's Hospital for Sick Children. In the hospital's pediatric forensic pathology unit, he conducted more than 1,000 child autopsies.

But Smith no longer practices pathology. An Ontario coroner's inquiry reviewed 45 child autopsies in which Smith had concluded the cause of death was either homicide or criminally suspicious.

The coroner's review found that Smith made questionable conclusions of foul play in 20 of the cases — 13 of which had resulted in criminal convictions. After the review's findings were made public in April 2007, Ontario's government ordered a public inquiry into the doctor's practices.

That inquiry, led by Justice Stephen Goudge and concluding in October 2008, found that Smith "actively misled" his superiors, "made false and misleading statements" in court and exaggerated his expertise in trials.
.....................................

(News Article) http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/dr-cha...quiry-1.864004

(Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Randal_Smith

 

[Arnie M]

Do we feel bad for the prisoners who earned their way into prisons or the innocent officers who are trying to do their jobs? As the suspended correctional Officer said, there is a lot of violence that happens daily.

The government didn't feel it was a serious enough offence to report to the officers' union? Had the officers seriously injured this prisoner while trying to detain him, there would be he!! to pay and a full blown inquiry along with lawsuits and possibly loss of jobs. MOO.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.2338627

I have never been in jail but listening to ex-prisoners they will tell you about some of the crazy and dangerous inmates in there , their brains are often messed up from drugs and completely unpredictable.

We had a local citizen with a life long "hobby" of picking up old film and reclaiming the silver from it , he would toil for hours over a barrel of chemicals to get a few grams of the metal which he saved for years and then sold it all when silver prices were high .

Trouble is Revenue Canada took him to court for tax fraud because he did not declare it as income , he was given a big fine plus one year in jail .... he said conditions were not so great , food was tolerable , guards were strict but fair .... but the worst part were some of the other "scary prisoners" ... he was stressed right out and ready for a nervous breakdown by the time he was released ...

 

[Alethea Dice]

I just saw this article and found it pretty shocking, yet possible relevant ,(even though it is American), so I thought I'd share it here;

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...hes-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades

It lead me to this equally shocking article;

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-and-how-it-could-be-killing-innocent-people/

I have to admit I had always assumed that there were very strict guidelines in regards to all forensic tests, that they were giving definitive and indisputable scientifically accurate answers, but it turns out that most sound hardly better than the polygraph test when it comes to scientific accuracy, it's just that no one has publicly challenged them like they did with they debunked lie detector tests. Scary!

And then there's the risk of cross-contamination. Hamilton sends a lot of their forensics to Toronto because their lab is too small and crowded. Their budget was approved in January and included a new lab, but it still all depends on whether government funding is forthcoming.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4618034-clairmont-forensic-lab-fails-to-meet-guidelines/

 

[Alethea Dice]

I have never been in jail but listening to ex-prisoners they will tell you about some of the crazy and dangerous inmates in there , their brains are often messed up from drugs and completely unpredictable.

We had a local citizen with a life long "hobby" of picking up old film and reclaiming the silver from it , he would toil for hours over a barrel of chemicals to get a few grams of the metal which he saved for years and then sold it all when silver prices were high .

Trouble is Revenue Canada took him to court for tax fraud because he did not declare it as income , he was given a big fine plus one year in jail .... he said conditions were not so great , food was tolerable , guards were strict but fair .... but the worst part were some of the other "scary prisoners" ... he was stressed right out and ready for a nervous breakdown by the time he was released ...

So many of these problems would be solved if they had a separate area for non-violent inmates. The open concept should never be used for the violent offenders. It's not fair to the guards, and it's not fair to the non-violent inmates. Lawsuits are costing taxpayers millions of dollars. Over-crowding is blamed for a lot of the violence. People waiting for trial for non-violent offences should be awarded their right to bail without unreasonable conditions. Bigger jails with space for separate areas and the end to so many accused being held while awaiting their trials could potentially stem a lot of problems. Being accused of a petty crime should not be a death sentence.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/09/22/lawsuit_targets_unbelievable_violence_at_london_jail.html

JMO

 

[swedie]

There is a simple solution, build more jails. Obviously we need them. Anyone found guilty of a serious crime gets left in their cage 24/7. Anyone assaulting someone inside prisons gets hauled off to spend the rest of their time in the same environment as the serious criminals. Have a remote door to an outside pen similar to a dog kennel. Allow them one hour of outdoor time daily and two showers a week fully shackled. That would definitely solved much of the violence issues. If they have no one to attack, they can't attack right? I would bet the majority of prisoners are violent but that's JMO. And who knows when a non-violent one will snap.

AD you said lawsuits are costing taxpayers millions of dollars. How about the fact that it's costing taxpayers millions if not billions to house criminals and take care of them. IMO legit lawsuits are acceptable and lawful. I would rather see my taxdollars go to the victims rather then to have to pay for murdering . Speaking of which, I hope SB and Tim's parents file a lawsuit and are compensated handsomely for the loss of Tim. Of course no amount of money could every replace a human life, but how else can they be compensated? There is no escape from the tormenting thoughts and nightmares...ever. MOO.

This bit from Tori S's father recently.

But, “It’s upsetting because here I am busting my daily,” added Stafford, who works for a commercial cleaning company, “and I don’t have (medical) coverage. Everything I’m working for is helping keep them alive and well.”

http://www.lfpress.com/2015/04/13/michael-rafferty-appeal-takes-slow-road

 

[Alethea Dice]

There is a simple solution, build more jails. Obviously we need them. Anyone found guilty of a serious crime gets left in their cage 24/7. Anyone assaulting someone inside prisons gets hauled off to spend the rest of their time in the same environment as the serious criminals. Have a remote door to an outside pen similar to a dog kennel. Allow them one hour of outdoor time daily and two showers a week fully shackled. That would definitely solved much of the violence issues. If they have no one to attack, they can't attack right? I would bet the majority of prisoners are violent but that's JMO. And who knows when a non-violent one will snap.

AD you said lawsuits are costing taxpayers millions of dollars. How about the fact that it's costing taxpayers millions if not billions to house criminals and take care of them. IMO legit lawsuits are acceptable and lawful. I would rather see my taxdollars go to the victims rather then to have to pay for murdering . Speaking of which, I hope SB and Tim's parents file a lawsuit and are compensated handsomely for the loss of Tim. Of course no amount of money could every replace a human life, but how else can they be compensated? There is no escape from the tormenting thoughts and nightmares...ever. MOO.

This bit from Tori S's father recently.

But, “It’s upsetting because here I am busting my daily,” added Stafford, who works for a commercial cleaning company, “and I don’t have (medical) coverage. Everything I’m working for is helping keep them alive and well.”

http://www.lfpress.com/2015/04/13/michael-rafferty-appeal-takes-slow-road

Anyone who is found guilty of a serious crime is in a federal prison. All the stories of violence and overcrowding is taking place in provincial detention centres. The only people in detention centres are those waiting for trial or serving a less than 2 year sentence. I don't believe the majority in a detention centre are violent, but I do believe that the violent ones are the ones in control there. Many of the people serving short terms are there for possession, petty theft, fraud, smaller crimes with short sentences. The only ones in there who have killed someone are the ones who haven't yet had their trial, which unfortunately, takes about three years to get to in Ontario.

We have no choice but to pay to house criminals and keep them out of society. But the millions of dollars in lawsuits are going to what you call the criminals. It is going to inmates who have been assaulted by other inmates, or to families of inmates who have been murdered while serving their "less than 2 years" or waiting for their trial.

ETA - And there is also the potential of guards facing charges because those inmates weren't protected.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/correctional-staff-charged-after-death-at-emdc-1.1714947

HTH and JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

To be fair, there are people in the system who didn't grow up in great homes and didn't have the stability, positive emotional environment, nurturing, etc. to grow up into nice people. Some people don't need to be punished more because they have already been through all of that - they need to be healed and grown. At the same time, not everybody is able to respond. It's sad that we have to keep ruined people in cages.

DM and MS are both the children of professionals, and grew up without want...what are they doing in there?

 

[Alethea Dice]

To be fair, there are people in the system who didn't grow up in great homes and didn't have the stability, positive emotional environment, nurturing, etc. to grow up into nice people. Some people don't need to be punished more because they have already been through all of that - they need to be healed and grown. At the same time, not everybody is able to respond. It's sad that we have to keep ruined people in cages.

DM and MS are both the children of professionals, and grew up without want...what are they doing in there?

They are waiting their three years to get to trial. Then, if found guilty, they will be going to the big pen, where it's safer.

I agree that there are many people in the system who really belong somewhere else where they can get help.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Anyone who is found guilty of a serious crime is in a federal prison. All the stories of violence and overcrowding is taking place in provincial detention centres. The only people in detention centres are those waiting for trial or serving a less than 2 year sentence. I don't believe the majority in a detention centre are violent, but I do believe that the violent ones are the ones in control there. Many of the people serving short terms are there for possession, petty theft, fraud, smaller crimes with short sentences. The only ones in there who have killed someone are the ones who haven't yet had their trial, which unfortunately, takes about three years to get to in Ontario.

We have no choice but to pay to house criminals and keep them out of society. But the millions of dollars in lawsuits are going to what you call the criminals. It is going to inmates who have been assaulted by other inmates, or to families of inmates who have been murdered while serving their "less than 2 years" or waiting for their trial.

ETA - And there is also the potential of guards facing charges because those inmates weren't protected.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/correctional-staff-charged-after-death-at-emdc-1.1714947

HTH and JMO

BBM

respectfully..I don't agree This just posted today.

However it does support your position that open concept does not work and that I do agree with.

Exclusive video from inside a prison shows an inmate assault an officer in Edmonton.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=...binId=1.810401&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1

 

[Alethea Dice]

BBM

respectfully..I don't agree This just posted today.

However it does support your position that open concept does not work and that I do agree with.

Exclusive video from inside a prison shows an inmate assault an officer in Edmonton.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=...binId=1.810401&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1

That happened at the Edmonton Remand Centre. A remand centre is a provincial jail where inmates are kept while they're waiting to go to trial. It isn't a federal penitentiary.

 

[Juballee]

There is a simple solution, build more jails. Obviously we need them. Anyone found guilty of a serious crime gets left in their cage 24/7. Anyone assaulting someone inside prisons gets hauled off to spend the rest of their time in the same environment as the serious criminals. Have a remote door to an outside pen similar to a dog kennel. Allow them one hour of outdoor time daily and two showers a week fully shackled. That would definitely solved much of the violence issues. If they have no one to attack, they can't attack right? I would bet the majority of prisoners are violent but that's JMO. And who knows when a non-violent one will snap.

AD you said lawsuits are costing taxpayers millions of dollars. How about the fact that it's costing taxpayers millions if not billions to house criminals and take care of them. IMO legit lawsuits are acceptable and lawful. I would rather see my taxdollars go to the victims rather then to have to pay for murdering . Speaking of which, I hope SB and Tim's parents file a lawsuit and are compensated handsomely for the loss of Tim. Of course no amount of money could every replace a human life, but how else can they be compensated? There is no escape from the tormenting thoughts and nightmares...ever. MOO.

This bit from Tori S's father recently.

But, “It’s upsetting because here I am busting my daily,” added Stafford, who works for a commercial cleaning company, “and I don’t have (medical) coverage. Everything I’m working for is helping keep them alive and well.”

http://www.lfpress.com/2015/04/13/michael-rafferty-appeal-takes-slow-road

I personally think that the problem with building more jails is the same as the problem with privatizing them. It then becomes imperative to fill them, because jails not filled to capacity are a waste of money. Look to America if you would like to see some good examples of what building more jails does. Dehumanizing people by treating them like dogs in remote controlled cages is not the solution, in my opinion. I say we take that money that would have gone into building more jails and we build better schools, better communities, and better public resources to guide the At-Risk youth away from crime before they need a jail. JMO

On another note, I personally can't believe more people aren't outraged that something that we, the CSI-loving public, took as irrefutable scientific evidence was wrong 90-96% of the time. 90-96%!!! Let that sink in. That would mean that it's possible that the 4-10% of the time they were actually deemed right would coincide with the normal margin of error. That's huge, in my opinion. We might as well have been convicting people based on the lumps and bumps in their skulls for how scientifically accurate hair sample testing turned out to be. And there are still people in jail based on that evidence alone, and people the FBI admit were executed due to this grievous 'science'. If we can't trust what we have been lead to believe is modern, irrefutable science, we are the ones who have been duped, in my opinion.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/21/fbi-jail-hair-mass-disaster-false-conviction

 

[swedie]

I personally think that the problem with building more jails is the same as the problem with privatizing them. It then becomes imperative to fill them, because jails not filled to capacity are a waste of money. Look to America if you would like to see some good examples of what building more jails does. Dehumanizing people by treating them like dogs in remote controlled cages is not the solution, in my opinion. I say we take that money that would have gone into building more jails and we build better schools, better communities, and better public resources to guide the At-Risk youth away from crime before they need a jail. JMO

On another note, I personally can't believe more people aren't outraged that something that we, the CSI-loving public, took as irrefutable scientific evidence was wrong 90-96% of the time. 90-96%!!! Let that sink in. That would mean that it's possible that the 4-10% of the time they were actually deemed right would coincide with the normal margin of error. That's huge, in my opinion. We might as well have been convicting people based on the lumps and bumps in their skulls for how scientifically accurate hair sample testing turned out to be. And there are still people in jail based on that evidence alone, and people the FBI admit were executed due to this grievous 'science'. If we can't trust what we have been lead to believe is modern, irrefutable science, we are the ones who have been duped, in my opinion.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/21/fbi-jail-hair-mass-disaster-false-conviction

IMO if someone don't want to end up in jail, all they have to do is behave themselves and follow laws which could find them behind bars. Are people not intelligent enough to figure that out? They are intelligent enough to plan their crimes and carry them out. Seriously I highly doubt there are that many innocent people sitting in jail/prison as we speak. Whether they are awaiting trial or wrongfully convicted the odds would be quite low.

As far as scientific evidence being wrong, what about all the other evidence, all the other types of direct evidence left behind by criminals and the scientific evidence that is fool proof. Sorry but IMO you are way off base with your numbers. So is it logical then to let murderers roam free while awaiting their trials? I very much doubt those awaiting trial have it all that bad in jail. They are under surveillance 24/7 and if not treating decently, those responsible for mistreatment would be held accountable. JMO.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I wonder how so many people are getting beaten, killed and committing suicide if they are under 24/7 surveillance.

I wonder why only 47% of people charged with homicide in Canada are convicted if all those people waiting for their trials are really guilty.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11646/tbl/tbl04-eng.htm

 

[Alethea Dice]

I personally think that the problem with building more jails is the same as the problem with privatizing them. It then becomes imperative to fill them, because jails not filled to capacity are a waste of money. Look to America if you would like to see some good examples of what building more jails does. Dehumanizing people by treating them like dogs in remote controlled cages is not the solution, in my opinion. I say we take that money that would have gone into building more jails and we build better schools, better communities, and better public resources to guide the At-Risk youth away from crime before they need a jail. JMO

On another note, I personally can't believe more people aren't outraged that something that we, the CSI-loving public, took as irrefutable scientific evidence was wrong 90-96% of the time. 90-96%!!! Let that sink in. That would mean that it's possible that the 4-10% of the time they were actually deemed right would coincide with the normal margin of error. That's huge, in my opinion. We might as well have been convicting people based on the lumps and bumps in their skulls for how scientifically accurate hair sample testing turned out to be. And there are still people in jail based on that evidence alone, and people the FBI admit were executed due to this grievous 'science'. If we can't trust what we have been lead to believe is modern, irrefutable science, we are the ones who have been duped, in my opinion.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/21/fbi-jail-hair-mass-disaster-false-conviction

Unfortunately, too many people think that forensic evidence is concrete proof. Really, an expert's opinion is still only that - an opinion. Which is why you sometimes see a trial where the jury is presented with two opposite opinions of the same DNA evidence. Speaking of hair sample testing, did you see that Children's Aid has been directed to immediately stop using or relying on hair strand drug and alcohol testing?

The province has significantly expanded its probe into problems at the Hospital for Sick Children’s Motherisk laboratory, citing concerns about the adequacy of hair drug and alcohol tests that have influenced an unknown number of criminal and child protection cases across the country.
“It is critically important that the institutions upon which our justice system relies are held to an extremely high standard,” Attorney General Madeleine Meilleur said in a release on Wednesday. “Our families and our children deserve no less.”
The announcement follows a Star investigation. The government's move calls into question the validity of scientific evidence that was previously unchallenged in courts, and could fundamentally change the way child protection cases are decided.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/04/22/childrens-aid-societies-told-to-stop-using-motherisk-hair-tests.html

Canada did an Inquiry in 2005 and made recommendations because of the need to fix some of the problems with expert witness testimony.

As identified in the 2005 Report, some of the primary focuses of the Morin and Sophonow Inquiries included the mishandling and improper testing of forensic evidence, reliance on unreliable scientific data, and tainted expert opinion testimony. These issues remain at the core of the controversies surrounding the use of forensic evidence and expert testimony today.

Since the 2005 Report, there have been a number of inquiries that have considered issues in relation to forensic evidence and expert testimony:

http://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/pub/ptj-spj/ch9.html

 

[Juballee]

IMO if someone don't want to end up in jail, all they have to do is behave themselves and follow laws which could find them behind bars. Are people not intelligent enough to figure that out? They are intelligent enough to plan their crimes and carry them out. Seriously I highly doubt there are that many innocent people sitting in jail/prison as we speak. Whether they are awaiting trial or wrongfully convicted the odds would be quite low.

As far as scientific evidence being wrong, what about all the other evidence, all the other types of direct evidence left behind by criminals and the scientific evidence that is fool proof. Sorry but IMO you are way off base with your numbers. So is it logical then to let murderers roam free while awaiting their trials? I very much doubt those awaiting trial have it all that bad in jail. They are under surveillance 24/7 and if not treating decently, those responsible for mistreatment would be held accountable. JMO.

Speaking as someone who had been charged with a crime that they did not commit, I would have to say that even if you behave completely within the law, your behaviour is still open to interpretation by others, and what you think is perfectly within the law might be seen differently by others. That is why we have courts and trials, to determine whose interpretation is correct. If not, then everyone accused would automatically be guilty, no one could use any defence and you could quickly fill those extra jails you want to build. Oh, who is going to pay for all these extra jails and to house all these criminals while they serve their long sentences? If the a answer to fighting crime was more jails, America would be the safest place in the world, because they have more people in jail than any other country by far. Do their citizens feel safer for it? Are the taxpayers happy to pay for all those jails?

As for the scientific evidence being wrong 90-96% of the time in hair sample evidence expert testimony, those are not my numbers, so I am not the one off base. Feel free to take it up with the FBI if you don't like their numbers. In some of the links provided, you may have read that they are actually questioning the scientific validity of many other different types of scientific tests as well as just hair testing. DNA tests were the only test that they feel confident in at this point, according to one article linked above.

I am not sure where this idea that jail is a safe place where one can feel secure in being under surveillance 24/7, but if that were the case, people like Ashley Smith would still be alive. Not every crime committed in jail is reported, investigated, solved and the perpetrators punished. I very much disagree with your assessment that jail isn't that bad for those awaiting their trials, in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

When reading WM's obit, it seems as if DM just wanted to fill the space for the submission with any details such as the types of planes he flew. "what few words could make comment here...." Just filler and little to no use of pronouns in many spots. Emphasis on the charities he was involved with and the last one being one with donations going to his own home. The pilot's license having a good photo is strange. Trying to erase the image of his dad without an eyeball even though he used an image of himself without an eyeball for an on-line profile pic? He can answer a question with a story just like his dad too, based on his letters while in jail. Like father like son. JMO

When I wrote the obituary for my ex-husband (at that time divorced more than a decade), father of my adult children (for which I had done the writing), I called his interests and hobbies, by which he was known to other people, and finally I called his interest in his family. This was intentional, because exactly this order had his interests.

I find the obit of DM as a single child who has grown up with his father, not strange. With regard to the language, I do not know anything (as someone with the native language German).

 

[Juballee]

When I wrote the obituary for my ex-husband (at that time divorced more than a decade), father of my adult children (for which I had done the writing), I called his interests and hobbies, by which he was known to other people, and finally I called his interest in his family. This was intentional, because exactly this order had his interests.

I find the obit of DM as a single child who has grown up with his father, not strange. With regard to the language, I do not know anything (as someone with the native language German).

I agree, I personally never found it odd at all. Everyone has their own way of reminiscing, and we all grieve a little differently, and certainly every obituary should be different. If they were all the same, what would be the point? They're meant to be words from the heart, not a cut and paste form letter in my opinion.

 

[Kamille]

I agree, I personally never found it odd at all. Everyone has their own way of reminiscing, and we all grieve a little differently, and certainly every obituary should be different. If they were all the same, what would be the point? They're meant to be words from the heart, not a cut and paste form letter in my opinion.

BBM

I'd imagine that someone who allegedly murdered the deceased would "grieve a little differently" and that they'd write a "different obituary" than those who did not murder the deceased would. Words from the heart? Not likely in this case.

MOO