Retrieving wreckage from AirAsia Flight To Singapore- no survivors recovered #3

[gregjrichards]

Families of the 162 people killed on the AirAsia Flight QZ8501 have been offered initial payments half of those made to those bereaved in the last year’s Malaysia Airlines disasters.

The initial Advance Compensation Payment of 300 million Indonesian Rupees (£15,700) is designed to help families deal with the immediate financial consequences of last month’s crash.

However, according to James Healy-Pratt, a leading aviation lawyer, the families who were on a budget carrier, have been treated less well than those on Malaysia Airlines – a traditional “flag carrier”- by the insurers, Allianz. The company is acting on behalf of both AirAsia and Malaysia Airlines

“I have had real difficulty explaining to families that we are helping why Air Asia and its London Lead Aviation Insurer, Allianz, have offered each family precisely half of what Allianz offered families of MH370 and MH17,” he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...he-compensation-given-to-MH370-relatives.html

Disgusting Allianz should pay the victims families the same as MH370 and MH17!

 

[gregjrichards]

It's not the audio from the CVR of Air Asia QZ 8501 , it's from the CVR of Adam Air 574.

Listen and compare... ADAM's Air Black Box Audio

Do they normally reveal the recordings in all plane crashes? I just wondered how likely it was we would hear the recording in this instance.

 

[MsFacetious]

They often reveal them AFTER the investigation.
I have no clue what will happen in this case.
It's not following protocol at all. :twocents:

 

[SouthAussie]

Do they normally reveal the recordings in all plane crashes? I just wondered how likely it was we would hear the recording in this instance.

I have been wondering what language the pilot/co-pilot/ATC will have been speaking. Surely it would be Indonesian in this instance? Would we even be able to understand the cockpit voice recording?

I have always presumed that the flight crew speak their own language in their own region, and are required to know the basics of the language of the region(s) they fly to. :dunno:

 

[itzkatiex0]

Any word on if they did find people in the fuselage? Searching online I can never find anything about it.

 

[PrairieWind]

English is the international language for ATC, etc. I believe in the US, and I think Europe, the CVR actual recordings are almost never released for privacy reasons. Often the transcripts will be released and then reinactments are often done.

 

[gregjrichards]

Any word on if they did find people in the fuselage? Searching online I can never find anything about it.

No news yet the conditions in the sea are poor according to the last reports hopefully the weather will improve and progress can be made in the coming days.

 

[itzkatiex0]

No news yet the conditions in the sea are poor according to the last reports hopefully the weather will improve and progress can be made in the coming days.

That makes me so sad. The longer they are down there the worse they will look when they are given to the families for burial or whatever their choice is.

 

[gregjrichards]

"Jakarta, Indonesia (CNN)Nunung Nursiah, whose younger brother was a flight engineer on AirAsia Flight QZ8501, says she had mixed feelings when a friend sent her a link to a photo of the plane's fuselage submerged in the cloudy waters of the Java Sea.

"On the one hand, I was so, so sad to imagine the possibility of my brother being inside there," she told CNN. "But on the other hand, I also felt relieved that if he is inside there, then there will be an opportunity for us to see him again for the last time."

She and her four sisters have been waiting for news of their only brother, Saiful Rakhmad, a father of three children."

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/15/asia/airasia-disaster/

Human impact of fuselage search.

 

[itzkatiex0]

"Jakarta, Indonesia (CNN)Nunung Nursiah, whose younger brother was a flight engineer on AirAsia Flight QZ8501, says she had mixed feelings when a friend sent her a link to a photo of the plane's fuselage submerged in the cloudy waters of the Java Sea.

"On the one hand, I was so, so sad to imagine the possibility of my brother being inside there," she told CNN. "But on the other hand, I also felt relieved that if he is inside there, then there will be an opportunity for us to see him again for the last time."

She and her four sisters have been waiting for news of their only brother, Saiful Rakhmad, a father of three children."

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/15/asia/airasia-disaster/

Human impact of fuselage search.

I read that before I logged on here. Bless their hearts

 

[gregjrichards]

That makes me so sad. The longer they are down there the worse they will look when they are given to the families for burial or whatever their choice is.

It is very sad indeed. The relatives of the man I just posted about are expecting to see him again the way he looked which is sadly impossible. The delays are prolonging the agony for the families but the retrieval has to be done properly and not put anyone else's life in jeporady.

 

[itzkatiex0]

It is very sad indeed. The relatives of the man I just posted about are expecting to see him again the way he looked which is sadly impossible. The delays are prolonging the agony for the families but the retrieval has to be done properly and not put anyone else's life in jeporady.

I just hope if they raise the fuselage, they do a better job than they did with the tail. That was horrific.

 

[gregjrichards]

I just hope if they raise the fuselage, they do a better job than they did with the tail. That was horrific.

Me too. It is not going to be an easy task. They have to be very careful and sensitive to the families wishes regarding remains. I don't think any photographs or videos should be taken of the retrieval as per the families wishes for their loved ones. It is a terrible tragedy not a photo op for people to be waving and smiling in. I cringed seeing the photos of the people with the tail and the generals with the data recorder it was totally unnecessary and inappropriate. Just my opinion.

 

[SouthAussie]

English is the international language for ATC, etc. I believe in the US, and I think Europe, the CVR actual recordings are almost never released for privacy reasons. Often the transcripts will be released and then reinactments are often done.

Thank you. Interesting .. I had never really thought about it before.

I went and looked up the international requirements, out of curiosity, and found this. While English is universal, apparently they can use their own language in their regions ... as long as all parties are using it, and they also know English.


Annex 10, Volume 2, states that if a pilot and an air traffic controller don’t speak a common language, the default language is English;

http://www.icao.int/safety/lpr/Arti... Requirements Critical to Aviation Safety.pdf


ICAO defines this:

"In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?"
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/250355/

 

[SouthAussie]

Me too. It is not going to be an easy task. They have to be very careful and sensitive to the families wishes regarding remains. I don't think any photographs or videos should be taken of the retrieval as per the families wishes for their loved ones. It is a terrible tragedy not a photo op for people to be waving and smiling in. I cringed seeing the photos of the people with the tail and the generals with the data recorder it was totally unnecessary and inappropriate. Just my opinion.

I can't even imagine how they could successfully move those people found in the plane while they are underwater ... not after being submerged for this long.

However, I also cringe when thinking of how they are going to lift the plane and retain the integrity of the people inside. The water gushing out of the aircraft when it is lifted would surely cause huge issues to the people inside.

In my very amateur and know-nothing mind, I imagine the best course of action would be to lift the fuselage to the surface in one piece (is that possible???), and recover the people while the fuselage is near/on the surface but has not yet been lifted out. Thereby minimising displacement. :dunno:

 

[emirates1957]

Thank you. Interesting .. I had never really thought about it before.

I went and looked up the international requirements, out of curiosity, and found this. While English is universal, apparently they can use their own language in their regions ... as long as all parties are using it, and they also know English.


Annex 10, Volume 2, states that if a pilot and an air traffic controller don’t speak a common language, the default language is English;

http://www.icao.int/safety/lpr/Arti... Requirements Critical to Aviation Safety.pdf


ICAO defines this:

"In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?"
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/250355/

Frequently staff would sit in the jump seat, on the proviso there was no seat available. English was always spoken. Also a requirement to occupy the jump seat, was to speak English.

Somebody asked up thread whether the rego is under the wing. I have had a look on a Virgin AC and they have. Once a car is free I'm going to have a little look under other wings. Funnily enough the Engineers couldn't provide a definite answer.

 

[Hatfield]

I just hope if they raise the fuselage, they do a better job than they did with the tail. That was horrific.

Yeah, I saw the video of the tail being brought on board a ship. Wow. I do understand why it was a rough job though.

On one hand I understand that once they had gotten it to the end of the ship, they definitely did not want it to slip off the cable and fall back down to the bottom. So I can see where they rushed it on board with the winch.

On the other hand I also understand that they werent protecting the tail at all and damaged it even more than it was already damaged.

I think they need to take more care and planning as they raise the fuselage.

 

[Hatfield]

Frequently staff would sit in the jump seat, on the proviso there was no seat available. English was always spoken. Also a requirement to occupy the jump seat, was to speak English.

Somebody asked up thread whether the rego is under the wing. I have had a look on a Virgin AC and they have. Once a car is free I'm going to have a little look under other wings. Funnily enough the Engineers couldn't provide a definite answer.

Hello Emirates
Ive been meaning to ask you a question if you happen to know about the Pitot Tubes that we hear about.

If they are used to guage how fast air is moving through them or other calculations then doesnt the speed of the aircraft distort any measurements? I dont understand how the speed of the aircraft itself doesnt mess up measurements from them.

 

[Hatfield]

You cannot tell if someone drowned without an autopsy.
They have to look at the lungs to determine that.
If they drowned they survived the impact, it's as simple as that.
Which means, we will not know how many people survived the crash.

The injuries of those in the tail section differ from those in the front.
All of that information is used to further the research to make flying safer.

My outrage isn't going to change anything but it won't stop me from being outraged. :twocents:

I have to agree with you on this. I think it would be very important to at least do autopsies on a certain number of the people and for certain people from certain sections. There are many reasons why it would be important. Mainly to help investigators know how to make planes safer. The plane manufacturers need to know this type of information in order to help them make a plane safer and real analysis is best way to get it.

Here are some of the reasons it is very important to do at least some autopsies.

1-To determine the specific injuries certain people encountered from the various parts of the plane would help them determine which people received the worst force and impact injuries. There may be a pattern that could help plane manufacturers.

2-Some could have possibly survived the immediate crash and succumbed to drowning. This would be critical to know.

3-Some of the families would want to know as well to give them either piece of mind (OR) to assist them in any lawsuits to prove pain + suffering.

I think it is vitally important to at least have autopsies done for certain people from certain sections AND for every single person who was found away from the plane floating or sunken. I am not sure what the laws are but this would be one situation where I dont think it should be optional choice for families. The information could save countless lives in the future if the manufacturers are able to deduce something that tells them something that could make an improvement to plane structure.

A simple hypothetical example is lets say they were able to tell that everyone that survived the immediate crash and was still breathing was from a seat that had special different seat belts or something of that nature. Then the plane manufacturers would know to use those type of seat belts all the time.

 

[Hatfield]

I can't even imagine how they could successfully move those people found in the plane while they are underwater ... not after being submerged for this long.

However, I also cringe when thinking of how they are going to lift the plane and retain the integrity of the people inside. The water gushing out of the aircraft when it is lifted would surely cause huge issues to the people inside.

In my very amateur and know-nothing mind, I imagine the best course of action would be to lift the fuselage to the surface in one piece (is that possible???), and recover the people while the fuselage is near/on the surface but has not yet been lifted out. Thereby minimising displacement. :dunno:

I totally agree with this method and this is what I was thinking as well. Once an object is near the very top of the surface, but not pulled out of the water yet, it is very light on the winch cable and there is no water pressure to deal with. Divers could go in and out of the fuselage without too much trouble and there would be other people available to them if some emergency happens.

I think once they got it near the surface they should immediately add more support rigging to it but leave it in the water slightly submerged. Then work on it there to remove anyone else before bringing it aboard the ship. They could also document the wreckage with photos before it gets any further damage from hauling it aboard a ship. Once the bodies are all out, they could even just use a tug boat to drag it to dock rather than try hoisting it aboard and that way no damage would occur to the plane.