Retrieving wreckage from AirAsia Flight To Singapore- no survivors recovered #3

[Hatfield]

This makes sense to me SA. The pilot may have only been able to gain a little control at the last possible seconds, giving the plane enough time to start to pull up before it hit the water? This would explain why there wasn't time for a mayday call as well.

It makes sense to me too. It would explain the tail getting ripped off the plane too.

 

[Hatfield]

What you say makes sense, but I question if it was a controlled ditching why the pilots wouldn't issue a mayday or any kind of emergency call?

I did hear the good expert guy on CNN (not Quest..lol) talk about how when in a really bad flight disaster emergency the pilots sometime just cant take the time. Their first responsibility is to try to fly and gain control of the plane. If they were really struggling to control it, then I can understand no mayday calls.

Weve been told before about the order of priority for a pilot in trouble:
Aviate, Navigate, and lastly Communicate.

 

[Snoods]

I was reading about 1 of the horrific crashes (think it may have been the Air France one) where the Pitot Tubes froze. If I understood what happened, this is basically what I read:

The Pitot Tubes froze up and the current reading to the pilot made it look like they were going real fast when actually the speed kept dropping. The speed of the plane dropped to a very dangerous level and then what happened is the "shaker" started which is a safety feature where the control stick of the airplane starts to physically shake to alert the pilot that something bad is happening to the plane. The pilots then made a huge error. They thought the control sticks were shaking because they were going too fast and that was totally wrong, because the real reason they were shaking was because the plane was going too slow. So because of the pilots misjudgement of the reason, they did the worst thing you would want to do. They severely raised the nose of the plane to slow down the plane. Which caused the plane engines to stall because it wasnt going fast enough to begin with.

I didnt read much after that and I am not sure why they couldnt just glide the plane down at least even with no engines. I suppose trying to glide a plane in a storm is much harder than we like to think could be done. Especially when the pilots were trying to figure out what all was happening to them.

And when you throw in total darkness, severe winds, rain, instruments not reading right, they probably didnt know up from down at that point.

Something similar happened in the Colgan Air Flight 3407 crash, which killed all 49 on board and one on the ground in February of 2010. When the stick shaker warned of an impending stall, the pilot did the complete opposite of what he should have done. There was an urgent signal to get the nose down but I guess this goes against every natural human reaction of trying to pull it up. He ended up basically battling the speed shaker for control of the airplane until it crashed.

When the stick shaker warned of an impending stall, the captain did exactly the wrong thing: He pulled the control yoke back and kept holding it back all the way to the ground.
[...]
The moment the autopilot disconnected, the captain reacted by pulling back on the control yoke. Perhaps he remembered the reference speed reset and was expecting the stick pusher to kick in momentarily.
[...]
At the top of the flight director, a red chevron appeared, pointing downward — an urgent signal to get the nose down. The airplane had rolled to the left, and the captain responded with near-maximum power, a right-roll command and right rudder. But he kept holding the yoke back.

http://www.flyingmag.com/safety/accident-investigations/aftermath-mystery-colgan-3407

 

[MsFacetious]

What you say makes sense, but I question if it was a controlled ditching why the pilots wouldn't issue a mayday or any kind of emergency call?

Aviate.
Navigate.
Communicate.

They never got to the point where they COULD communicate. OR they didn't have the ability to do so.
I'm not sure how AirBus works when it comes to losing engines and having alternate power.
If they lost both engines would they still be ABLE to communicate? :twocents:

 

[Hatfield]

Something similar happened in the Colgan Air Flight 3407 crash, which killed all 49 on board and one on the ground in February of 2010. When the stick shaker warned of an impending stall, the pilot did the complete opposite of what he should have done. There was an urgent signal to get the nose down but I guess this goes against every natural human reaction of trying to pull it up. He ended up basically battling the speed shaker for control of the airplane until it crashed.



http://www.flyingmag.com/safety/accident-investigations/aftermath-mystery-colgan-3407

That may have been the one I was reading about. I read about so many yesterday I may have gotten some of them confused together.

 

[raisincharlie]

Once I saw that large fuselage section I was very surprised and so I tend to think that it was in tact until it hit the water.

If it did manage to try for a controlled crash landing, then it is more possible that some people may have survived the initial impact. I would hate to think that there were people that were in that water and were not rescued.

It does make you wonder if that is why they dont want autopsies. Maybe to hide the fact there were some people that drowned.

I'm thinking that religious preferences may well dictate whether or not an autopsy could be performed. Correct me if I am wrong but the majority of the passengers were Indonesians and therefore Muslim (except for the 40 (?) Christians on board). I'm pretty sure autopsies are not acceptable in the Muslim faith. Pretty sure I have heard this explanation on the news. I must admit however, this story is starting strangely to follow the MH 370 route of misinformation, mumbled promises, and retraction after retraction...

 

[gregjrichards]

Aviate.
Navigate.
Communicate.

They never got to the point where they COULD communicate. OR they didn't have the ability to do so.
I'm not sure how AirBus works when it comes to losing engines and having alternate power.
If they lost both engines would they still be ABLE to communicate? :twocents:

No I understand if both engines fail there would be no electrical power to communicate even the flight data recorders stop recording.

 

[Hatfield]

I'm thinking that religious preferences may well dictate whether or not an autopsy could be performed. Correct me if I am wrong but the majority of the passengers were Indonesians and therefore Muslim (except for the 40 (?) Christians on board). I'm pretty sure autopsies are not acceptable in the Muslim faith. Pretty sure I have heard this explanation on the news. I must admit however, this story is starting strangely to follow the MH 370 route of misinformation, mumbled promises, and retraction after retraction...

Yeah its a tough subject for sure. I know which way I would vote if it was me or my family members involved. I would not hesitate one bit to allow them. To me our body is just a vessel and our mind and spirit is what is important and when we die we no longer need the vessel. Sure we need to be respectful but sometimes you have to sacrifice things for the benefit of the masses.

Attached is an article about it. I wonder if someone would just sit down and really help the people understand about why they are so important and that they could minimize damage to the body. When you read their reactions, it makes you wonder if it is just a knee-jerk reaction and they dont realize why its so important. I wonder how they deal with organ donations? Hmmmmm.

I am thankful there are some that dont mind helping.

"Meanwhile, CNN reported that Anas Yusuf, East Java Police Chief had said: “For the sake of the investigation, we agree, and it is accepted by Interpol, to perform autopsies on the pilot, co-pilot and some randomly selected passengers.”

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/ca...es-please-say-airasia-crash-victims-families/

 

[panthera]

Oh that's lovely Snoods. Our crew room is located on the apron area….when I asked the guys if I could borrow their van to do a drive by and check underneath all the parked AC wings. It was that moment the guys knew I was totally nuts. Were all here doing the same thing…..trying to stitch the pieces together.

All of the information you provide here is very greatly appreciated!

 

[panthera]

The only thing that I don't get about a controlled landing is that the plane was found relatively close to the point of last contact ... thinking that it would need time and distance to reduce its elevation in order to try to land. However, I guess that if it was forced into a massive elevation drop by forces of nature (or whatever), it was probably too low for this experienced ex-air force pilot to pull up after he gained some semblance of control and leveled his aircraft out.

I do think the plane had to be somewhat level for the fuselage to be so intact.

And I still think the pilot was probably a real hero, and really tried his absolute very-experienced best to save his plane and all the people on it.

Agree, it does appear the pilot was attempting to regain control of the aircraft and do his best to land it on water. The position of the wreckage does lend possibility that it suffered engine failure and more or less glided down from the high elevation it was at as opposed to it having full power which I believe would cause it to break apart first and nose-dive into the water.

MOO

 

[emirates1957]

It makes sense to me too. It would explain the tail getting ripped off the plane too.

Google COFFIN CORNER AERODYNAMICS …..this is the difference of a few knots where an AC can go into a stall.

 

[gregjrichards]

PANGKALAN BUN, Indonesia – Clinging desperately to underwater ropes, an Indonesian search leader said his divers appeared to be "flying like Superman" as they scoured the seabed in the gruelling quest to recover bodies and wreckage from crashed AirAsia flight QZ8501.

"The current is so strong that it could rip open our masks or drag us into a whirlpool," said Totok Subagio, in charge of a group that this week found the plane's two black box flight recorders, after a lengthy, difficult search.

Trained to swim to depths of 45 meters (150 feet), the Indonesian navy's finest frogmen were drafted in to scour the seabed for wreckage of the Airbus 320-200 that went down in a storm last month en route to Singapore."

http://www.rappler.com/world/region...tter&utm_medium=referral&utm_medium=share_bar

This article explains the struggle of the divers they are doing a very difficult job. I have a great deal of respect for them.

 

[emirates1957]

No I understand if both engines fail there would be no electrical power to communicate even the flight data recorders stop recording.

At 10000ft they could manually turn on the APU , however when you consider they are falling thousands of feet per second, their first concern is to control the AC. If it is a stall you would bet your bottom dollar this scenario would have been practised in the SIM time after time. My bucket list was to get my solo flying licence, I only got up to 8 lessons (lack of $$$$)…on the 6th session you practise stall procedures. There are obviously other mitigating circumstances that effected their recovery. As mentioned previously I just hope we get the full picture. Once the data is retrieved I will run it past an A320 Pilot and Engineer…..look forward to their opinions.

 

[emirates1957]

Agree, it does appear the pilot was attempting to regain control of the aircraft and do his best to land it on water. The position of the wreckage does lend possibility that it suffered engine failure and more or less glided down from the high elevation it was at as opposed to it having full power which I believe would cause it to break apart first and nose-dive into the water.

MOO

Up thread I think SA advised that 85 feet of fuselage had been found on the sea bed. Given the fact the a A320 is around 123 feet long, bearing in mind the 85 feet does not include the tail section, supports the theory so far that it could have been an attempt for a controlled ditch.

 

[emirates1957]

PANGKALAN BUN, Indonesia – Clinging desperately to underwater ropes, an Indonesian search leader said his divers appeared to be "flying like Superman" as they scoured the seabed in the gruelling quest to recover bodies and wreckage from crashed AirAsia flight QZ8501.

"The current is so strong that it could rip open our masks or drag us into a whirlpool," said Totok Subagio, in charge of a group that this week found the plane's two black box flight recorders, after a lengthy, difficult search.

Trained to swim to depths of 45 meters (150 feet), the Indonesian navy's finest frogmen were drafted in to scour the seabed for wreckage of the Airbus 320-200 that went down in a storm last month en route to Singapore."

http://www.rappler.com/world/region...tter&utm_medium=referral&utm_medium=share_bar

This article explains the struggle of the divers they are doing a very difficult job. I have a great deal of respect for them.

Pity they can't get Navy SEALS to investigate under water.

 

[newone]

I follow @jackboard on Twitter. He's on top of things.

	Jackson Board (@JackBoard)

[TD="colspan: 2"] 1/16/15, 5:38 AM
Despite the #QZ8501 joint operation being scaled down, Basarnas is now calling for Navy & Air Force to assist in lifting fuselage

[/TD]

thanks to you!!

last tweet (4 hrs old now)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7hXtYuCEAAuJNG.jpg:large

 

[MzOpinion8d]

What you say makes sense, but I question if it was a controlled ditching why the pilots wouldn't issue a mayday or any kind of emergency call?

Is it at all possible that lightning from the storm killed their communication system?

 

[newone]

Jackson Board wrote a lovely article on the search and what the journalists are experiencing waiting for news

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/specialreports/qz8501/feature-witness

 

[MsFacetious]

Is it at all possible that lightning from the storm killed their communication system?

Unlikely.

However if they lost both engines (a current theory) they may have lost communication too.
I am hoping our airbus engineers will give us a definite answer on that. :seeya:

 

[SouthAussie]

Cranes … cranes … the word cranes has been mentioned!

Soelistyo said the failure of the underwater examination of the wreckage left no option but to lift the fuselage, either by using floating balloons as the tail part was lifted early this week, or using cranes from tugboats.

He did not say when the operation would start.


Also

He added that one victim’s body was recovered on Friday, raising the total to 51.

…. wreckage that appears to be the cockpit was located by sonar imagery about 500 meters from the fuselage and partly embedded in the mud.

http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/i...‘cockpit-engine’-found&Itemid=2#axzz3P4XVGbhC