Retrieving wreckage from AirAsia Flight To Singapore- no survivors recovered #3

[CARIIS]

It is unclear to me what true effect the co-pilot pulling the stick back would have on this Air Bus craft given it is fly by wire and difficult to override the computer systems. That is the thought process behind the fly by wire, to prevent a pilot from executing a maneuver outside of the performance capability of the craft. Just to my way of thinking this smells somewhat of BS. Perhaps emirates can explain this interaction, perhaps he has and I just missed it, but it just seems to me with my limited knowledge of the computer systems that pulling the stick back would have no effect or minimal effect if the computer flight system is operational. Then again maybe I'm just weary of the craziness expressed by the officials overseeing the recovery of victims and the air craft.

Folks try to make it "one" thing. I have never read a accident report where one thing resulted (except like a bomb!) in crash. I am sure when IF, 9n USA by now the entire transcript would have been out for weeks -- we will probably find an avalanche of things going on within the cockpit. I have always felt the increase was a upodraft followed by strong downdraft. BOth events require the opposite response by crew in a short peroid of time

In addition I think we may find that there was structural damage imapacting the accident sequence as well - I wish they would releae the transcript already, much nunace will be learned about the whole chain of events

 

[Tssiemer]

Folks try to make it "one" thing. I have never read a accident report where one thing resulted (except like a bomb!) in crash. I am sure when IF, 9n USA by now the entire transcript would have been out for weeks -- we will probably find an avalanche of things going on within the cockpit. I have always felt the increase was a upodraft followed by strong downdraft. BOth events require the opposite response by crew in a short peroid of time

In addition I think we may find that there was structural damage imapacting the accident sequence as well - I wish they would releae the transcript already, much nunace will be learned about the whole chain of events

I love this explanation!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[raisincharlie]

Folks try to make it "one" thing. I have never read a accident report where one thing resulted (except like a bomb!) in crash. I am sure when IF, 9n USA by now the entire transcript would have been out for weeks -- we will probably find an avalanche of things going on within the cockpit. I have always felt the increase was a upodraft followed by strong downdraft. BOth events require the opposite response by crew in a short peroid of time

In addition I think we may find that there was structural damage imapacting the accident sequence as well - I wish they would releae the transcript already, much nunace will be learned about the whole chain of events

I tend to agree regarding the updraft - the rate of climb is impossible for this air craft. It definitely had some non human assistance in the rapid altitude increase. Beyond that thought my brain is scrambled due to the fact that you are correct - multiple factors occurring rapidly most likely doomed the air craft within seconds. Severe thunderstorms are seldom kind and even less predictable with respect to updraft, down draft etc. Hopefully some highly skilled meteorologists are studying every bit of data available but I am not sure if Doppler radars with enough range even exist in that particular area.

As to structural damage - very possible given the physics of the rate of climb. All the more reason significant care should have been exercised in trying to raise both the tail section and the fuselage. Other pieces of the plane such as the wing surfaces serving control features IMO also need to be scrutinized by appropriately trained investigators given the spiral flight path after descent began. The nuance of the transcript might well be lost on me as I don't speak "pilot", but it would indeed be interesting all the same.

 

[Dr. Know?]

My words aren't coming to me easily in regards to this paused search for the victims. Maybe just add an adjective or cuss word and that sums it up?

Glad your back RaisinCharlie and yay!, CARIIS!

 

[itzkatiex0]

I do not fly anymore, I'm to afraid. Yup, I was on a small plane also, I told my DD it reminded me of Sky King. Lol

CNN had a re-enactment of what happen to the plane. Hopefully the family will get answers soon.

Omg it was horrible! I had grabbed into the hand of the old man sitting beside me and I'm pretty sure I broke his fingers. Lol.

 

[SouthAussie]

The pilots of AirAsia flight 8501 cut power to a critical computer system that normally prevents planes from going out of control shortly before it plunged into the Java Sea ...

The action appears to have helped trigger the events of December 28, when the Airbus A320 climbed so abruptly that it lost lift and it began falling with warnings blaring in the cockpit ...

The pilots had been attempting to deal with alerts about the flight augmentation computers, which control the A320's rudder and also automatically prevent it from going too slow. After initial attempts to address the alerts, the flight crew cut power to the entire system, which is comprised of two separate computers that back up each other ...

Investigators are still trying to determine why the pilots would cut power by pulling a circuit breaker in the cockpit.

.... it doesn't explain why the pilots pulled the plane into a steep climb, the people said. Even with the computers shut off, the pilots should have been able to fly the plane manually, they said.

Airbus discourages pilots from cutting power to systems because electronics in the highly computerised aircraft are interconnected and turning off one component can effect others ...

In the event of a malfunction or loss of power, the flight protections will shut down and leave the pilots to fly the plane manually. That appears to be what happened before flight 8501 entered the steep climb and stalled ...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/airasia...ers-moments-before-crash-20150129-131qq4.html

 

[SouthAussie]

David Learmount, operations and safety editor for Flightglobal, in an article posted at Brisbane Times early in January 2015, said at least 1800 airline passengers and crew have been killed over the past two decades because “pilots simply lost control of their aircraft.”

A study by the US Federal Aviation Administration delved into the situation and found that training afforded to recent pilots are “somewhat incompatible with the way airplanes are built and designed today … there is a fundamental misunderstanding going on between man and machine."

http://au.ibtimes.com/airasia-qz850...puter-glitch-pilot-error-causes-crash-1415969

 

[SouthAussie]

At least two unidentified people “familiar with the matter” told Reuters they believed the FAC suffered a glitch on Dec 28. Without them, the pilots were rendered blind and thus would need to rely on experience and on manual flying skill abilities to control the wayward plane and put it into its proper position.

The FAC system of the Airbus A320 is responsible for “controlling rudder movements and helping to keep the airplane stable, as well detecting windshear, or sudden changes in wind speed or direction,” Reuters said. A report by Indonesian magazine Tempo, however, noted that particular aircraft’s computerised rudder system had actually been in a series of maintenance problems long before Flight QZ8501 got lost in the radar on Dec 28.

http://au.ibtimes.com/airasia-qz850...puter-glitch-pilot-error-causes-crash-1415969

 

[Snoods]

I hate to say but the fact that both recorders were found and working, in reality reduces the "want" for the fuelage. This is more political stuff claiming to keep trying. Money rules all, at the end of the day, and all liability stuff will be cleared up with black box data- that is just how it works.

The fact that they dropped the thing, certainly reduces the"value" of getting it up forensically both in terms of impact sequence, and in therms of human forensics that can "tell' many secrets, but not if they have been shaken and dropped.

I think they may quitely quit, if they contrinue having issues

CARIIS! I'm so glad you're back! (((((hugs)))) my friend.

 

[Snoods]

Omg it was horrible! I had grabbed into the hand of the old man sitting beside me and I'm pretty sure I broke his fingers. Lol.

Oh no you poor thing! I feel your pain, I'm a wimpy flyer myself.

Lol that poor old man. Darn the elderly and their brittle bones!:giggle:

I've probably left bloody gaping wounds with my nails on perfect strangers before, don't feel bad lol.

 

[SouthAussie]

So, everything is returning to normal.

The military have gone back to whatever important things they are doing in Indonesia.

AirAsia have started advertising flights and promo fares again (as they needed to do, as Garuda have apparently taken a good chunk of their market share).
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nati...sumes-online-promo-adverts-month-after-crash/

The fishermen are finding more people (two).
http://www.wtoc.com/story/27981160/2-airasia-bodies-believed-found-600-miles-from-crash-site

And the families of all the missing people are left wondering exactly where their loved ones' remains are.

 

[CARIIS]

The pilots of AirAsia flight 8501 cut power to a critical computer system that normally prevents planes from going out of control shortly before it plunged into the Java Sea ...

The action appears to have helped trigger the events of December 28, when the Airbus A320 climbed so abruptly that it lost lift and it began falling with warnings blaring in the cockpit ...

The pilots had been attempting to deal with alerts about the flight augmentation computers, which control the A320's rudder and also automatically prevent it from going too slow. After initial attempts to address the alerts, the flight crew cut power to the entire system, which is comprised of two separate computers that back up each other ...

Investigators are still trying to determine why the pilots would cut power by pulling a circuit breaker in the cockpit.

.... it doesn't explain why the pilots pulled the plane into a steep climb, the people said. Even with the computers shut off, the pilots should have been able to fly the plane manually, they said.

Airbus discourages pilots from cutting power to systems because electronics in the highly computerised aircraft are interconnected and turning off one component can effect others ...

In the event of a malfunction or loss of power, the flight protections will shut down and leave the pilots to fly the plane manually. That appears to be what happened before flight 8501 entered the steep climb and stalled ...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/airasia...ers-moments-before-crash-20150129-131qq4.html

This makes much sense. Media is making it like this "happened". My sense is this crew had been battling with some time witht he hideous weather they had been- when looking at the radar they were in some serious junk before they hit the unreal part. This makes me think super crew. Seemed they aware (AF maybe?), military pilot (I am not letting some computer fly my damn plane in this soup!) and said I am killing this thing.

Sounds like they knew the best hope of maybe remaining alive was to fly by the seat of thier pants, like the old days, when you dont have AIrbus computers thinking they are smarter that you! I vote at the end of the day they will be applauded for killing i and attempting to fly the plane their nightmare.

I find it interesting that lately it seems they are "stuck" with the notion that the pilots input the planes out of control assenct and subsquent decent as if to be "suddenly" ignoring these guys were in a cat 6 thunderstorm, that winds past hurricane cat 3 winds were swirling around them, destroying controllabley, lift, roll of the aircraft etc.

The fact that it seems as if the aircraft did not end up disintergrated on the way down from stuctural overloads is a tribute their flying acumen.

NOr do we know if these systems were tripped manually or in another part of the chain of events as the aircraft was tossed around the sky like a little toy.

This kinda stuff always makes me think lots, just cant grasp that there are certain things human beings cant control, that are as a result of "phsics" just going to occur and alter some folks situation beyond their control.

I still dont get why the transcripts have not released. Historically here in us the release of that info went throgh "phases" to. IN like the 70's Cockpit voice recorders were , even transcropts, never released to the general public. YOu can only get the transcripts inside the final reports. Then there rich infomration slowly got absorbed by media by inferences. INvestgators say they never heard on the cockpit recorder the flight crew lowering the landing gear or whatever.

Then it started to be come "OK" for little interchanges, in transcript form, to be reported. Then it moved to entire readout of cockpit recorder was transcribed and released. THen it progressed (intenet) where the actual recordings in their entitiy could be listened to online. And now we are at the place where there are websites totally dedicated to playing recordings in their entitiy.

IN all the recordings I have always been amazed at how calme and "problem solving" they reamain until the final stuff. Some are chilling, one yelling he loved his mom before recording eneded, one yelling he loved his wife.

Here are some famous ones: (the cut and paste was weird!)

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TRANSCRIPT​

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AIRLINE​

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FLIGHT​

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05 Jul 1970​

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Air Canada​

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621​

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Pete, sorry.​

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United Airlines​

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553​

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29 Dec 1972​

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Eastern Air Lines​

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401​

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Hey, what's happening here?

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27Mar 1977​

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Pan Am / KLM​

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1736/4805​

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There he is .. look at him! that son-of-a-***** is coming! Get off!


^^^^^^This famous one above is from the biggest crash in history.​

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25 Sep 1978​

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Pacific Southwest Airlines​

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182​

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Ma I love you.​

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A​

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28 Dec 1978​

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United Airlines​

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173​

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United 173, Mayday! We're... the engines are flaming out - we're going down!​

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13 Jan 1982​

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Air Florida​

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90​

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Larry, we're going down, Larry.... I know it!​

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31 Aug 1986​

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Aeromexico​

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498​

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Oh #### this can't be!Oh #### this can't be!​

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09 May 1987​

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LOT Polish Airlines​

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5055​

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Goodnight, Goodbye, We Perish!​

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C​

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04 Oct 1992​

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El Al​

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1862​

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Going down...eh...1862, going down, going down, copied going down?



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08 Sep 1994​

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USAir​

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427​

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Hang on. What the hell is this?



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21 Aug 1995​

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Atlantic Southeast Airlines​

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529​

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Amy, I love you.​

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[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

t 1999​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

Egypt Air​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

990​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

I rely on God​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

13 Jan 2000​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

Avisto​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

-




​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

.

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

ATC​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

31 Jan 2000​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

Alaska Airlines​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

261​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

Ah here we go. This one was really scary - they flew upside down for a while


​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

01 Jun 2009​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

Air France​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

447​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

Damn it, we're going to crash... This can't be happening!

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

ATC​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

15 Jan 2009​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

US Airways ​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 141"]

1549​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 182"]

We're gonna be in the Hudson.

​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 192"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 165"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 175"]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 327, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[CARIIS]

Cut and paste not working for those inclined here is link for last words :

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/lastwords.htm

 

[Snoods]

So, everything is returning to normal.

The military have gone back to whatever important things they are doing in Indonesia.

AirAsia have started advertising flights and promo fares again (as they needed to do, as Garuda have apparently taken a good chunk of their market share).
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nati...sumes-online-promo-adverts-month-after-crash/

The fishermen are finding more people (two).
http://www.wtoc.com/story/27981160/2-airasia-bodies-believed-found-600-miles-from-crash-site

And the families of all the remaining missing are left wondering exactly where their loved ones' remains are.

This is so sad! I envision the already grieving families now dealing with the added angst of being told they may never receive their loved one's remains. Them not knowing what to do or who to turn to for help. Feeling helpless and completely alone.

 

[Snoods]

Cariis and SA y'all are providing a lot of interesting info here! Thank you! I skimmed most of it briefly but am going to come back and read it more thoroughly when I'm not so tired.

 

[watcher9]

So, everything is returning to normal.

The military have gone back to whatever important things they are doing in Indonesia.

AirAsia have started advertising flights and promo fares again (as they needed to do, as Garuda have apparently taken a good chunk of their market share).
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nati...sumes-online-promo-adverts-month-after-crash/

The fishermen are finding more people (two).
http://www.wtoc.com/story/27981160/2-airasia-bodies-believed-found-600-miles-from-crash-site

And the families of all the missing people are left wondering exactly where their loved ones' remains are.

Wonder if one of our map specialists could give us a radius of where 600 miles would be from the crash site and how the currents would flow?

 

[PrairieWind]

It is illegal for the NTSB to release the actual recordings from the CVR, and I believe most countries have similar rules. The airline owns the recording and can release it if they choose but aren't required too, and I think they rarely do. Full transcripts of the CVR are I believe not usually ready and released until the report is final.

 

[CARIIS]

Cockpit voice recordings:

http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/cvrwav.shtml


Their load factors:

"We were 50 percent behind where we were after the incident," Fernandes said from Davos. "We are now about 12 percent behind and it's fast recovering."

[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/30/us-airasia-advertising-idUSKBN0L30UU20150130
[/URL]

 

[Boodles]

(Reuters) - The captain of the AirAsia jet that crashed into the sea in December was out of his seat conducting an unorthodox procedure when his co-pilot apparently lost control, and by the time he returned it was too late to save the plane, two people familiar with the investigation said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...dType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter

 

[SouthAussie]

France has opened a formal criminal investigation into the crash of an AirAsia plane in the Java Sea last month while a French co-pilot was at the controls, a judicial source said Friday

A judge will investigate possible "manslaughter" in connection with the crash that killed all 162 people on board.

"Remi Plesel's family are delighted at this criminal investigation which, we hope, will reveal the truth," said their lawyer Eddy Arneton.

"It will allow us to finally ask the right questions."

http://malaysiandigest.com/world/540062-french-judge-to-probe-airasia-crash.html