REVISIT Does LE have enough evidence to Convict Casey on 1st Degree Murder?

[MiraclesHappen]

I think the defense made a monumental mistake in claiming Casey has 'reasons' for NOT telling LE the truth & we can only hear this at her trial.

I can think of nothing even remotely logical that would make it unsafe for Caylee if Casey told the truth BEFORE the trial but it would be safe DURING the trial.

Obviously they KNOW Caylee is deceased or they wouldn't have her sitting in jail perfectly willing to risk Caylee's life AFTER the trial.

I think their whole case will consist of: Prove she's dead. Prove Casey did it. Prove it was intentional.
Casey is toast. I think Baez would have come up with a better game plan IF it was an accidental death.

It sounds like the State is prepared to do that. It might be time for plan B.

 

[kpalma715]

Although its pretty obvious that Casey is responsible for Caylee's death. I believe this trial will be very tricky for both sides.

 

[Pink Panther]

I'm confused about how the Sunshine Law works...Specifically, regarding the CA and GA FBI interviews that were released yesterday. I assume that Baez already had these. How/when does the existence of these tapes become public??? How did the Sentinal know that they were available for the asking? Does anyone know?

 

[kathyn2]

If Baez had a few brains he would never have let this go to trial. He would have struck a deal a long time ago and claimed it was an accident and she was afraid to come forth. LE was looking for a story like that at the beginning. She should have given that story and told where the baby was and she would probably have gotten off with a fairly light sentence. If Baez had a brain he could have struck up a good deal for her. Now I think she will never get out of prison. She will spend the rest of her life there due to his idiocy. I now think KC purposely killed Caylee and she is going to pay big now.

I think the defense made a monumental mistake in claiming Casey has 'reasons' for NOT telling LE the truth & we can only hear this at her trial.

I can think of nothing even remotely logical that would make it unsafe for Caylee if Casey told the truth BEFORE the trial but it would be safe DURING the trial.

Obviously they KNOW Caylee is deceased or they wouldn't have her sitting in jail perfectly willing to risk Caylee's life AFTER the trial.

I think their whole case will consist of: Prove she's dead. Prove Casey did it. Prove it was intentional.

Casey is toast. I think Baez would have come up with a better game plan IF it was an accidental death.

 

[okiedokietoo]

TXredhead, I LOVE your avatar!

That said, ugh... I'm the skeptic again.

1. LP says oly 25% of what police have has been released. What would LE's motivation be to release the parts of evidence they already have? Why would they want this speculation circus to go on if they have a couple of smoking guns? Why release anything at all? Some may argue that they're pushing the envelope, hoping KC will snap, but I don't see why they would release all of these police interrogations with CA and GA.. embarrass them to death when PD could really use their cooperation.

2. Although the defense's list of witnesses is small, it's the dream team. If there is more forensic evidence to come out, these guys will refute it up and down, and it may all hinge on that.

3. Honestly, given the evidence that's out there now, I see proof that Caylee is deceased and she was in the trunk of the car KC was driving, and KC has lied all over the place, but I see no strong evidence that she murdered the child. I BELIEVE the child died either at KC's hands or by KC's neglect, but I'm not convinced of murder.

1) LE/State doesn't give the Defense everything they have months before the trial. And what JB gets now is being released under the Sunshine Law - sort of freedom of information
2) We don't know who the State will have as their experts - a lot of really good ones out there
3) I don't believe that the State will go with the DP

 

[okiedokietoo]

I'm confused about how the Sunshine Law works...Specifically, regarding the CA and GA FBI interviews that were released yesterday. I assume that Baez already had these. How/when does the existence of these tapes become public??? How did the Sentinal know that they were available for the asking? Does anyone know?

go to the orange county court records site
http://orangeclerk.orangecountyfl.net/criminal/iclerk_disclaimer.shtml
read and click on "I accept" for Disclaimer and on next page scroll down to name search - it will pull up infor on KC's case - motions etc

 

[chaingangal]

I am unsure because we do not know the nature of evidence withheld. With what has been released so far I don't think it will be man 1. (sad as I am to say that)

 

[elementary]

Originally Posted by LeLe1953
Simple question..........did you go to law school? If so, did you pass the bar?

Color me wise. I still have stalkers from bulletin boards that existed at the time of OJ's first trial. Other than to say that I'm an old buzzard who has periodically posted on-line since the days of Mosaic (over 15 years), I've never divulged my personals.

(tip of my hat)

Interesting thread. Funny. Maybe I should be scared? I didn't realise that answering a simple yes or no to these questions placed a person in danger! I can, for example, assert with confidence that I never went to law school. I am, however, very interested in logical fallacies and prestidigitation.

 

[elementary]

My central point has been and remains that I can't see the foundation for clear and unyielding proof of premeditation given the core sources are void of evidence; i.e., no body, no place of death, no time of death, no cause of death, no mechanics of death, no crime scene, no eyewitness and no confession.

I'm curious: How would any of the following core sources of evidence you suggested provide "clear and unyielding" proof of premeditation? A body, a place of death, a time of death, mechanics of death, a crime scene?

As for a confession or an eyewitness- well, wouldn't that be perfect? If that were a core requirement, then a lot of people would not have been convicted.

 

[elementary]

You believe the prosecutors have the required evidence. Beliefs precede and bias actions and/or conclusions. In voir dire, a competent defense attorney almost assuredly would (and should) ask for you to be excused.

I beg to differ. Beliefs are not written in stone. And if it weren't for beliefs, both prosecution and defence could not do their jobs effectively. Beliefs can change as evidence and arguments are presented. So I agree with those who say they may believe one thing but could keep an open mind. Meanwhile, the defense would not be opposed to having jurors who believe that there is little evidence, I imagine. People have all sorts of beliefs walking into a courtroom.

I personally think that in the case of child murder, the DP is fitting for Casey. But I'm blood-thirsty that way. I'm disappointed that it's off the table.

It also grieves me to admit that even though I believe she killed her tender, innocent baby and tossed her away like a wad of used kleenex, if the prosecution's evidence/arguments did not convince me, in all conscience, I would have a mighty internal struggle on my hands. In all conscience I would have to do the right thing even if it killed me.

 

[kline]

Even with the evidence circumstantial and forensic that we know about I dont see how anyone in their right mind could reach any other conclusion then guilty of first degree murder.
And thats minus Caylee's body or a confession.
As I heard it put once she's so guilty its practicly science fiction.

 

[madeleine]

1st degree murder?
I voted unsure.1st degree murder=premeditation.I HOPE they have enough to prove it.(dunno if the internet searches are enough,but IMO they have more)

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=754&bold=||||

first degree murder
n. although it varies from state to state, it is generally a killing which is deliberate and premeditated (planned, after lying in wait, by poison or as part of a scheme), in conjunction with felonies such as rape, burglary, arson, or involving multiple deaths, the killing of certain types of people (such as a child, a police officer, a prison guard, a fellow prisoner), or certain weapons, particularly a gun. The specific criteria for first degree murder, are established by statute in each state and by the U.S. Code in federal prosecutions. It is distinguished from second degree murder in which premeditation is usually absent, and from manslaughter, which lacks premeditation and suggests that at most there was intent to harm rather than to kill.

(added the link for those like me who are no experts )

 

[songline]

I think LE has much more evidence than they released to the public. A good LE doesn't show all their cards. Between the Murder 1 and the economic charges, she'll be put away for most if not all of her life. Many have played down the economic charges but I've heard of others being put away for 30 yrs or more for similar charges. Look at that man that Dateline ID keeps showing...he was under suspicion of murdering his business partner but they couldn't charge him due to lack of evidence. But they were able to get financial and fraud charges on him for stealing the deceased man's identity and money. He is in prison for 30 years as we speak.

I am afraid that while everything does point to Casey they will only get her on many other charges but not murder 1. Even if they have decomposed evidence in the trunk they do not have evidence that tie her to it. And they sure do not have a body that may give more evidence.

 

[Valrico Analyzer]

/fyes. absolutely. positively.

They will do a doc dump with the smoking gun.

Remember, this is a process LE is doing, slowly slowly slowly tightening the vice around her skull. They would have to be as sick as her if they were blowing smoke and leading us on and had nothing. LE doesn't play games. They will ante up the evidence...that she is gone and that Cruella did it.

Im not a legal eagle like the group on death penalty thread...my analysis/logic is from the options/commodities/derivatives/futures trading.. but its alot like crime solving...trust me. You can be convinced theres nothing, then there is, and vice versa. The data can show overwhelming proof and theres none or it goes the other way on you fast. At the end of the day, I trust my instinct...crime is the same way...can't be weak in faith or stomach. Just stay strong, folks. LE is delivering us a 1st degree conviction. There's days you feel like youre gonna puke in the garbage can and days of euphoria.

 

[panthera]

I think the defense made a monumental mistake in claiming Casey has 'reasons' for NOT telling LE the truth & we can only hear this at her trial.

I can think of nothing even remotely logical that would make it unsafe for Caylee if Casey told the truth BEFORE the trial but it would be safe DURING the trial.

Obviously they KNOW Caylee is deceased or they wouldn't have her sitting in jail perfectly willing to risk Caylee's life AFTER the trial.

I think their whole case will consist of: Prove she's dead. Prove Casey did it. Prove it was intentional.

Casey is toast. I think Baez would have come up with a better game plan IF it was an accidental death.

I agree with you on the defense plan and unless they have at least one juror who buys it, it won't work, but I believe they'll try it anyway ~ prove Caylee's dead. There's enough evidence, imo, for the DA to get the conviction they want. It only takes a second to form premeditation. MOO

 

[Devon]

It's interesting to see that so far over 26% of respondents (more than 1 in 4) in this poll think either that there is not enough evidence for 1st degree murder or are not sure. That's a significant level of 'reasonable doubt' - IMO.

 

[DotsEyes]

Semper fi Marine,

Your analysis is spot on. With each document dump comes more and more incriminating evidence.

The jury will hear that her baby was missing for 31 days and she did not mention it to anyone. Then they will hear of the evidence in the trunk. Anything else is just gilding the lily. Remember Jurors are not robots, they bring their reason, logic, beliefs and common sense with them.

Innocent parents do not lie about where they work when their child is missing. Period. The Jurors will "get" it.

 

[metalcrystal]

TXredhead, I LOVE your avatar!

That said, ugh... I'm the skeptic again.

1. LP says oly 25% of what police have has been released. What would LE's motivation be to release the parts of evidence they already have? Why would they want this speculation circus to go on if they have a couple of smoking guns? Why release anything at all? Some may argue that they're pushing the envelope, hoping KC will snap, but I don't see why they would release all of these police interrogations with CA and GA.. embarrass them to death when PD could really use their cooperation.
2. Although the defense's list of witnesses is small, it's the dream team. If there is more forensic evidence to come out, these guys will refute it up and down, and it may all hinge on that.

3. Honestly, given the evidence that's out there now, I see proof that Caylee is deceased and she was in the trunk of the car KC was driving, and KC has lied all over the place, but I see no strong evidence that she murdered the child. I BELIEVE the child died either at KC's hands or by KC's neglect, but I'm not convinced of murder.

I think it's pretty obvious by now that LE isn't ever going to get their co-operation.

 

[Valrico Analyzer]

Semper fi Marine,

Your analysis is spot on. With each document dump comes more and more incriminating evidence.

The jury will hear that her baby was missing for 31 days and she did not mention it to anyone. Then they will hear of the evidence in the trunk. Anything else is just gilding the lily. Remember Jurors are not robots, they bring their reason, logic, beliefs and common sense with them.

Innocent parents do not lie about where they work when their child is missing. Period. The Jurors will "get" it.

ITA....The is gonna hit the fan this week.....probably starting tomorrow.
The 11th is Thursday. I look to LE to release some more docs prior to then.

UNDERSTAND: if LE releases little, don't assume that it means they HAVE little. Their "end game" Thursday is to force defense for a trial extension. Then they have more time if they want to try to find the body. They dont need it. If I see the LE release alot of info, or the most damming stuff, theat means to me they're telling Baez " We're not messing around..you need to negotiate a plea".

 

[Valrico Analyzer]

GERALDO JUST HAD BAEZ ON HIS SHOW. I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE ANOTHER BUDDYBUDDY TALK. But, Kim Guiyfol called it a conviction. So did Atty John Kelly ( NH Atty) Kim asked Baez if he was gonna stick with the "RIDICULOUS" story of the nanny. She said " It's your client's words..and story..you're stuck with it".

Of course, he said he wasn't revealing anything until opening statements.

WTF? Is he planning on walking a clone of lil Caylee in there and saying "GOTCHA! WE WERE JUST SCREWING WITH YOU PEOPLE.....EARLY APRIL FOOLS"

Utter and complete moron. He now looks like a deer in the headlights. He's gotta be doing this to set her up for an appeal based on incompetent counsel. (SHE SURE WOULD QUALIFY!)