REVISIT Does LE have enough evidence to Convict Casey on 1st Degree Murder?

[JBean]

How could it be called accidental? That 2 year old didn't triple duct tape her mouth, triple bag herself and then placed herself and bags in a laundry bag and made her way to the bushes of Florida just yards from her home...

Most accidents don't occur in this manner....

IMO

Charleyann:banghead:

who said anything about it being accidental? You lost me there.

 

[LC446]

It is my opinion, based on the evidence released so far, that Casey is guilty of the premeditated murder of Caylee. I understand some's concern with murder vs premeditated murder.

I went back and read the motion by the defense in which they were arguing to include the complete definition of "premeditated" in jury instructions. this motion was filed on Nov 25, 2009.(I tried to include a link but I couldn't figure it out, sorry. I read it on the cfnews13 website.) The verbage the defense used in their motion...

1. more than a mere intent to kill
a fully formed purpose to kill and
2. must have existed for a period of time long enough to permit reflection
a. as to the nature of the act; and
b. to the probable consequences to the victim.

Ok, let's think about this for a minute. Any rational, reasonable adult can infer that if you duct tape a 2 year old's mouth and nose with 3 pieces of duct tape that they will not be able to breath. Without breathing, they die, very simple. If you are the person applying the tape you definitely don't just have the mere intent to kill, your purpose is to close that person's airway and kill them so you have "fully formed the purpose to kill."

In March of that same year, months before Cindy reported Caylee missing, Casey conducted internet searches on how to make chloroform, neck breaking, household weapons and visited missing children websites. If you intend to use chloroform on a 2 year old or break the neck of a 2 year old, your intent is to cause major damage, if not kill. Someone might argue that you can't say with any certainty that Casey searched those things to use on Caylee. Well, I might agree, except there is a slight problem with that argument...there were traces of chloroform in her car and these searches are in the same time frame as searches on missing children sites.

A couple of months covers the "period of time long enough to permit reflection" and premeditation can occur minutes before the crime is committed so I'm being generous. I think a couple of months is plenty of time to reflect about the nature of the act and the probable consequences to the victim as well.

So, even if I use the defense's definition and words about premeditation (and mind you they want these, or something similar, included in jury instructions) she meets these requirements.

IMO, she definitely meets the criteria to be charged with and convicted of premeditated murder.

 

[ZsaZsa]

But she did not state a cause of death in her report.
I suspect she will make a educated guess at trial but will not be able to state it with medical certainty.
I think no certain cause of death will be a bit troublesome. JMHO.

Also, did the report say prior to death? or did it say prior to decomposition? I have heard it reported both ways and am trying to get that straight.

I thought she said prior to death but will have to go back and read. Decomposition starts at the moment of death, so it may be a moot point...

 

[Eidetic]

How could it be called accidental? That 2 year old didn't triple duct tape her mouth, triple bag herself and then placed herself and bags in a laundry bag and made her way to the bushes of Florida just yards from her home...

Most accidents don't occur in this manner....

IMO

Charleyann:banghead:

*warning, this sentence of my post contains sarcasm*
Accidental death doesn't generally evoke the avoidance of utilizing emergency response units dialing 911, layers of duct tape in addition to concealing the toddlers body?

The forethought of causing harm to someone can be anywhere from a minute before committing the crime to weeks, months or even years from thought to action.

This is not an excusable or justifiable homicide. This was not negligence, it is not a crime of passion (although I am sure something PO'ed Ms. Casey to summon the audacity to do the most cowardly, heartless and shameful act of her pathetic existence), Caylee did not provoke her mother.

This does not qualify as 2nd or 3rd degree, this was intentional and premeditated. (Searches for missing children, household weapons, neck breaking, chloroform). Sounds like someone wanted this to look like an accident but ultimately went with covering it up, letting nature take its course with Caylee's corpse and taking the chance she may never be found, was the best way to go because someone couldn't have been 100% sure if the cause of death wouldn't have raised some questions.
Making it look like an accident isn't as easy as it is in the movies.

Sounds like premeditation to me.

 

[notthatsmart]

Interesting summation. Would you have said the same thing about the Scott Peterson case? IMO you are running up the wrong wall - she will be convicted and will be very lucky if she doesn't get the death penalty. One deep breath of the trunk and a good look at the duct tape will slam the door on that girl so hard she will never be a free woman in this lifetime.

My response to this is that Scott Peterson had motive and that motive is used often in murder. It has been proven time and time again when another woman or man is involved. This case is different. The Sa has not put up a motive yet, but if they do and it is one of the motives on this forum like I wanted to party motive or I wanted to get even with my Mother motive or my boyfriend wants girl babies motive, it is not normal and holds no candle to the other woman motive. IMO

 

[JBean]

I thought she said prior to death but will have to go back and read. Decomposition starts at the moment of death, so it may be a moot point...

I just want to get it straight in my mind. Thanks ZsaZsa

 

[marspiter]

My response to this is that Scott Peterson had motive and that motive is used often in murder. It has been proven time and time again when another woman or man is involved. This case is different. The Sa has not put up a motive yet, but if they do and it is one of the motives on this forum like I wanted to party motive or I wanted to get even with my Mother motive or my boyfriend wants girl babies motive, it is not normal and holds no candle to the other woman motive. IMO

*bold by me*

The SA is not required to establish motive for Murder 1. It helps but it's only icing on the cake. Especially with an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that can be used to prove the 3 elements needed for murder 1.

 

[ZsaZsa]

My response to this is that Scott Peterson had motive and that motive is used often in murder. It has been proven time and time again when another woman or man is involved. This case is different. The Sa has not put up a motive yet, but if they do and it is one of the motives on this forum like I wanted to party motive or I wanted to get even with my Mother motive or my boyfriend wants girl babies motive, it is not normal and holds no candle to the other woman motive. IMO

What does it matter whether the motive is to be with another woman or to go out and party/sleep around like Casey, if the result of that motivation is premeditated murder. It doesn't make much difference to the victim.

 

[JBean]

I am stuck somewhere between 2nd Degree murder and Aggravated Manslaughter.

Without a definitive cause of death from the ME, I cannot go with premed at this time. Perhaps that will change at trial.

 

[Eidetic]

Then to further take away dignity from this child, goes with the story someone took her so she can't be given a proper memorial service while she decompose less than a mile away?
Deny her family the right to grieve. Encourage them to support you or threaten to/shun them, coldly and calculatingly playing the role of "strong mother" "who can't even sit there and cry, all day, like she wants to..." because she is too busy helping try to find her daughter? When she's done what, nothing but lie. Redirect all the focus and attention on herself?
Not even saying her daughters name and when she does, it is clear it is so full of anger and jealousy? Of a 2 year old little girl (she's already killed!)?

She is wickedly cruel. This is not someone who is remorseful.

 

[LambChop]

ME report on what they find. It's what the ME did not find that probably speaks volumns. Caylee obviously did not die of natural causes. With the absence of injuries pre-death and only the duct tape visible across her mouth and nasal area I would think the only conclusion is that Caylee died of suffocation. And what would be the reason for the duct tape over her mouth and nose and three pieces at that if she died accidently. Apparently the person who put that tape on her was very angry as three pieces is a bit of overkill. JMO

 

[LambChop]

How about the oldest motive in the book. Hundreds of thousands of grandparents today are raising their grandchildren because the children's parents decided it's just not for them. They would rather party, get involved with the wrong crowds and get themselves into trouble, or just decide it was a mistake and let their Mom and Dad take over. If you are not ready for parenthood it can be a rude awakening. JMO

 

[JBean]

ME report on what they find. It's what the ME did not find that probably speaks volumns. Caylee obviously did not die of natural causes. With the absence of injuries pre-death and only the duct tape visible across her mouth and nasal area I would think the only conclusion is that Caylee died of suffocation. And what would be the reason for the duct tape over her mouth and nose and three pieces at that if she died accidently. Apparently the person who put that tape on her was very angry as three pieces is a bit of overkill. JMO

TYpically the ME reports the Cause and Manner of death when they can be determined. But she was unable to determine both in Caylee's case.
The ME may very well say on the stand that in her professional opinion the COD was asphyxiation from the duct tape, but cannot report it with medical certainty because she does not have enough evidence.

I will take that as fact, it would be good enough for me when and if she says that.

 

[TorisMom003]

Was it reported that the ME said that she was rushed and did not have the time needed to do the autopsy in the time and manner she wanted to? I seem to remember hearing or reading that somewhere but can not find it now.

 

[debbie0604]

I just want to get it straight in my mind. Thanks ZsaZsa

Dr. G stated that the tape was placed prior to decomposition.

 

[LambChop]

You have to admit, though, that if it was an accidential death the very fact that the duct tape was placed in three layers to cover all of the child's airways would have been a very cruel thing to do. It is bad enough she hid the body but to stage it to look like someone deliberately killed the child and then actually name a person. And KC is still trying to find another victum as we speak to pin it on. The duct tape tells me she was angry and probably in a rage. And it is a weapon when it's only a 3 year old child. JMO

 

[cyberborg]

But she did not state a cause of death in her report.
I suspect she will make a educated guess at trial but will not be able to state it with medical certainty.
I think no certain cause of death will be a bit troublesome. JMHO.

Also, did the report say prior to death? or did it say prior to decomposition? I have heard it reported both ways and am trying to get that straight.

.... prior to decomp.

 

[debbie0604]

If I remember correctly she stated that the bones were disarticulated and tiny, and had to be placed together in order for the autopsy to take place. I remember reading that everyday, the searchers would meet with her and ask how many more (bones) were needed... and she would tell them, and then the searchers would go out and search for more. It's sad... If I remember correctly, she said because there was no tissue, she based her findings together with the remains and the evidence at the crime scene and with the evidence that LE gave her. (IIRC) I would have to go back and re-read that discovery, but I think that's what I remember.

 

[JBean]

Was it reported that the ME said that she was rushed and did not have the time needed to do the autopsy in the time and manner she wanted to? I seem to remember hearing or reading that somewhere but can not find it now.

I think she had plenty of time and a few experts as well. There wasn't enough of Caylee left to determine cause of death with medical certainty.

Maybe the first piece of tape was placed on her face to quiet her down and she died of fright. Then 2 more pieces were put on her to cover up her face.
I don't really beleive that, but what I am saying is that Dr. G cannot say with medical certainty how she died because she has nothing left but bones to examine. The detail would be in the tissue,eyes, brain and all that is gone.
But, she can get on the stand and say that in her professional opinion it was the tape but she cannot report it with the certainty required to put it on the DC. KWIM? That is what I am waiting for.

 

[Harmony 2]

I thought she said prior to death but will have to go back and read. Decomposition starts at the moment of death, so it may be a moot point...

I just want to get it straight in my mind. Thanks ZsaZsa

Dr. G stated that the tape was placed prior to decomposition.

Page 3 http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6440.6475.pdf

"The duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place."