Right, shut your face and do as I tell you

[DeeDee249]

FRom where that X is marked, if Fernie was standing at that point, no way could he have read the note from it's place on the spiral stairs. Not only couldn't he have read it, I doubt he would have seen it.
There's another reason why he couldn't have either read or seen it- by the time he got to the R house, Officer French was already there, and the note had been given to him. It was no longer ON the stairs.

 

[madeleine]

Exactly, and if you look at where he said he was standing, how did the page(s) ever get close enough for him to read??? If the RN was anywhere near the spiral staircase, then Fernie is truly “Eagle Eye” Fernie, as a matter of fact, eagles, hawks and owls would be envious of his eyesight.
From a test that another poster on another forum did, and my tests (try it yourselves), that note would have to be about 3 feet away from the door or closer to be readable. (Keep in mind that the note was also being read upside down.)
The spiral staircase would probably be about 20 feet or more from the patio door.
If Fernie is telling the truth, why would the RN be on the floor so close to that door and so far from the spiral staircase?
BTW, I could never understand what would possess anyone to get down on their knees to read something on a hard floor as JR claims he did when 99.9% of humans would simply hold it in their hands or lay it on a table.

Then I had to figure out how far the note had traveled, and how it got there, from the sprial staircase. Using the Floor Plan in Appendix A of PMPT, I noted that the south patio door was directly south of the spiral staircase but I had no idea how far. Using another bit of unscientific analysis I decided to determine if there was a possible scale to the floor plan without one being specifically mentioned.
I live in a house that was built in 1927 about the time the Ramsey house was built. That may not be significant but I thought it interesting. I measured a standard door with facing to be about 41 inches wide and measured two of my hallways and found one to be 40" wide and the other to be 42" wide. Then I assumed the patio door was a standard door spanning the width of the hallway, which may be close. (I remember seeing the door in photos but can't find those photos at the moment. I don't remember it being that wide nor does the floor plan indicate much width of the hallway other than the width of the door). I measured the space allocated for the hallway door in the floor plan to be 5mm. I now had a conversion factor of 5mm = 41" or 1mm=8.2 inches. To proof this factor I used it on the Dining Room and found the the dining room to be 13' X19' which seemed reasonable to me since my Dining room is 11' X 15' and the Ramseys were living in a house bigger than mine. I also measured the Ramsey garage using this conversion model and found that two mid size cars (after measuring two midsize cars) could fit fairly easily in the garage.
I then measured the space between the south patio door entrance and the numeral (1) listed in my floor plan as being the location of the Ransom Note.
That distance, using my unscientific methods, was found to be about 18.5 feet. Subtracting 3 feet for the distance of the note from the door I come up with a movement of the Ransom Note of some 15 feet.
I then pondered the information that John laid the note out on the floor for convenience and to use the hall lighting. I wondered how many lights and light switches were in the hallway and as to why he would have to move some 15 feet down the hall for a light switch and some light. I then rationalized that since it was Dec. 26, which it almost is right now, that he wasn't moving to use sunlight through the south patio door. It was 6AM and the sun rises in my neck of the woods (CST) at about 7:15 AM. Taking into the account the rotation of the earth and the time change for MST where I think Boulder is, I can rationalize that the sun probably rises there at 7:15 AM, or thereabouts, at Christmas time.
So, did John have to go all the way to the end of the hallway to find a light switch and lighting? I then went to John Ramsey's 1998 interview with Law. Enf. (P.0134) and found a discussion JR had with Lou Smit about the light switches for the hallway. John is referring to a photo or floor plan Lou has presented and John responds (paraphrasing) that there are three switches for the hallway: one in the kitchen; one "here" (unknown) and one back here. (Italics added). I must now assume that the one "back here " is in the back of the house where the spiral staircase is and that logically the other light switch would be next to an entryway such as the south patio door. That may not be correct but since my analysis is unscientific, I can assume anything that is reasonably logical.
Ok, my next step of analysis would be to determine if JR came down the spiral staircase which would place him at the location of the Ransom note, or down the front stairs which would place him in the foyer area of the first floor. Looking to Death of Innocence, Ramseys, P.11 and to the PR 1997 Interview with Law.Enf., she/Patsy stated in DOI that he came down "the main stairs." In the 1997 Interview she states (paraphrasing) that she thought John check on Burke and ran down the stairs. Well, the stairs closest to Burke's room are the main stairs.
OK, let’s assume John does come down the spiral stairs with Patsy. She and he then proceed to the furthest light switch to gain light?
Now let’s assume John comes down the main stairs. Once on the first floor he must turn right, go through the kitchen, which may or may not be lit as Patsy may have preceded him back to the hallway/kitchen/spiral stairway area, turn right again to retrieve the note, do a complete 180 degrees (and pick up the note which does not have his fingerprints on it) and return past a closer light switch in the kitchen or an already lit kitchen with Patsy in it, and proceed down a hallway to the south patio door.
Did The Ransom Note Grow Legs? - Crime Library Message Boards

ITA and dunno about you guys but to me this statement is really strange....I mean you would grab it and run with it to show it to your husband IMo but no,she didn't even touch it,she left it there,yeah rightttttttttttttttttttt


ST: Patsy, when you came downstairs on the morning of the 26th and discovered the note laid out as you described on the uh, uh one of the steps, do you recall, at that point, and can you recount for me, at what point you touched the note? Were you the one that, did you grab it and run upstairs with it or were you the one that moved it to the floor? Give me an idea of what points that morning you handled the note.

PR: That was a lot in one question.

ST: Okay. When you came down the stairs the first time did you touch the note that time?

PR: I don’t recall dong that but…

ST: Okay.

PR: …I may have.

ST: Do you recall uh, did the note go back upstairs with you when you went up to check JonBenet’s room?

PR: I don’t remember exactly, but I don’t think so. I think I just, you know, pounced up the stairs as fast as I could. I don’t, I don’t think I took it with me.

ST: Do you recall moving the note from the stairs to it’s eventual position where John read it on the floor?

PR: I, I don’t recall moving it. No.



IMO she's just avoiding the questions re her prints on it but she's ridiculous.

 

[Sophie]

TY all. Sorry for my absence after my miserable attempt to sound like a nanny. As some of you know, I'm pregnant at the moment and that added to a kidney infection has rendered me more-or-less incontinent for a few days.

Anyway, thank you for the awesome replies so far.

 

[cynic]

From what I've been able to find, there is a light above the hall floor between the "table" where the RN pad was found and the spiral staircase.
This would put the RN pages about 10 feet away from the patio door.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtNGUD3jqcs[/ame]

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi cynic.

Thankyou for the info re your calculations on distance, helps in the visualization. I've been wondering where the rn was positioned before police arrived.


So why would JF describe events as such?
Caught up in the moment.

The lighting, the sconces and 'brighter' hallway light;


http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm




10 22 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now, was there
23 sufficient light from those sconces for you to
24 read it?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.




PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know
11 exactly. Maybe he will remember. But I mean I
12 left the note somewhere here, whether I picked
13 it up and threw it down, just took off. And
14 then came back down the stairs, and whether I
15 picked it up, and then he came down, I gave it
16 to him. And said here's the note or whatever.
17 TOM HANEY: Now are you just
18 guessing or do you know--
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't remember
20 exactly.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: But I know I left
23 the note here and then when he came I was
24 walking around here, he picked up the note or
25 had the note somehow, was down on the floor
0049
1 reading it.

13 TOM HANEY: And then you walk over
14 to the phone?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
16 TOM HANEY: And he is doing what?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: He's on his hands
18 like this (indicating), on his -- like crouched
19 on his knees, reading it.
20 TOM HANEY: And what is he saying?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing much. He
22 said, "call the police

 

[JMO8778]

Imo the note was never on the stairs to begin with.Patsy used gloves to write it,didn't want her prints on it (neither did John),and so it was placed on the floor,where she said John read it,and they left it there till LE arrived.

Sophie,hope you feel better soon!

 

[madeleine]

Hm.
PR says that she saw JR reading the note while she was on the phone(kitchen).That means the rn was left on the floor way too far from the spot where Fernie could have read it,right? :waitasec:

 

[madeleine]

TT: Okay. Okay. So you are in there making the 911 call. John’s out in the hallway reading the note, um . . .

PR: ell, I mean we were real, the phone’s right here and he was right there.

TT: Right.

PR: I mean it’s just . . .

TT: Right around the corner. Okay.


If he was right around the corner how did she see him anyway?


PR: Well I remember I, I remember myself being of the phone and he was crouched down on the floor there in the hallway looking, reading at the note.

ST: Okay.

PR: And I was on the phone so I don’t know which happened first or it, simultaneously or.

ST: Okay.

PR: I remember as I was talking to that person looking down at him in his underwear reading the note.

 

[madeleine]

From what I've been able to find, there is a light above the hall floor between the "table" where the RN pad was found and the spiral staircase.
This would put the RN pages about 10 feet away from the patio door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtNGUD3jqcs

Not only would it have been too far away for him to read it but PR couldn't have seen JR while she was on the phone like she claimed.

 

[madeleine]

JR: Ah, well, it wasn’t very long before the uniformed officer showed up. And I met him, I remember talking to him in the hallway, the front hallway. And I said our daughter’s missing and I remember him saying did she run away, and I said she was only six years old. And at one point, I don’t remember if I had the note in my hand or Patsy brought it, but I showed him the note. And then some other people started to arrive.




From ACR site:

Patsy Ramsey dialed 911 (5:52am)
Patsy Ramsey phoned Whites
Patsy Ramsey phoned Fernies
John Ramsey (reading note)
Burke Ramsey (sleeping??)
JonBenet Ramsey (missing)
Officer Rick French arrived (5:59am)
Officer Karl Veitch arrived
Sgt. Paul Reichenbach arrived
Fleet White arrived (6:30am)
Priscilla White arrived (6:30am)
John Fernie arrived
Barbara Fernie arrived
Mary Lou Jedamus-Advocate (6:45am)
Grace Morlock-Advocate (6:45am)
Officer Barry Weiss (6:45am)
Officer Sue Barchlow (6:45am)
Priscilla White phones home (6:45am)
Reverend Rol Hoverstock (7:00am)
Burke taken to Whites (7:00am)
K-9 Unit on standby (7:33am)
Sgt. Paul Reichenbach mets Arndt
Det. Linda Arndt arrives (8:10am)
Det. Fred Patterson (8:10am)
Crime scene investigators dusting prints
JonBenet Bedroom sealed (10:30am)


If we are to believe their statements then it means that French laid it back on the floor right?Okay ugh oh.Fernie arrived there after French so it doesn't quite fit,does it.

 

[madeleine]

If the phone was where it's pointed out in this photo then yeah PR could have seen JR while she was on the phone and he was reading the note ,I guess.

 

[madeleine]

Okay ,I am now officially confused re the movement of the RN that morning.

 

[JMO8778]

JR: Ah, well, it wasn’t very long before the uniformed officer showed up. And I met him, I remember talking to him in the hallway, the front hallway. And I said our daughter’s missing and I remember him saying did she run away, and I said she was only six years old. And at one point, I don’t remember if I had the note in my hand or Patsy brought it, but I showed him the note. And then some other people started to arrive.




From ACR site:

Patsy Ramsey dialed 911 (5:52am)
Patsy Ramsey phoned Whites
Patsy Ramsey phoned Fernies
John Ramsey (reading note)
Burke Ramsey (sleeping??)
JonBenet Ramsey (missing)
Officer Rick French arrived (5:59am)
Officer Karl Veitch arrived
Sgt. Paul Reichenbach arrived
Fleet White arrived (6:30am)
Priscilla White arrived (6:30am)
John Fernie arrived
Barbara Fernie arrived
Mary Lou Jedamus-Advocate (6:45am)
Grace Morlock-Advocate (6:45am)
Officer Barry Weiss (6:45am)
Officer Sue Barchlow (6:45am)
Priscilla White phones home (6:45am)
Reverend Rol Hoverstock (7:00am)
Burke taken to Whites (7:00am)
K-9 Unit on standby (7:33am)
Sgt. Paul Reichenbach mets Arndt
Det. Linda Arndt arrives (8:10am)
Det. Fred Patterson (8:10am)
Crime scene investigators dusting prints
JonBenet Bedroom sealed (10:30am)


If we are to believe their statements then it means that French laid it back on the floor right?Okay ugh oh.Fernie arrived there after French so it doesn't quite fit,does it.

there is something odd going on with Fernie anyway.He and FW give different accounts of when they both arrived that morning.White says Fernie was already there when he arrived.Fernie says White got there first.Who to believe? I'd say FW..he seems to be the honest one!
IMO,the R's needed a witness to all this,and to make sure *someone was going to be there,and so they called Fernie bf they made the 911 call.(prob. on a cell,the one on which the records disappeared).His lying about the note was to say he just happened to see it and quickly grasped the situation(IOW-JR himself didn't tell him)..which makes me think even more that he was already informed of events going down that morning, (not the whole,real truth,just about the note and JB missing).Fernie's actions indicate he didn't want to be questioned about any conversations bet. himself and JR.Better to say he just happened to see the note on his own.
JMO!

 

[DeeDee249]

I've always been suspicious of JF's statements. The note was NOT on the floor when he got there, whether it could be seen through the glass door of the butler's pantry or not. (BTW, it could not be seen from there). To me, FW wanted everything out in the open- and the other "friends" played the stonewall games. That's why FW was attacked. He new. A LOT.

 

[cynic]

Imo the note was never on the stairs to begin with.Patsy used gloves to write it,didn't want her prints on it (neither did John),and so it was placed on the floor,where she said John read it,and they left it there till LE arrived.

ITA with that.

 

[cynic]

Not only would it have been too far away for him to read it but PR couldn't have seen JR while she was on the phone like she claimed.

The phone cord is long. It would be no problem for her to step out into the hall.

Below is a view from the middle of the hall facing south toward the patio door.
"Patsy" is looking out from the kichen near the phone.

 

[cynic]

So why would JF describe events as such?
Caught up in the moment.

John Fernie: "I drove my car into the -- up the alley and parked in the back of your house, and went around to the patio door, which was a glass door leading into the kitchen and back of the house, and didn't see anybody, but saw a piece of paper laying on the floor. Looked at that. It was facing the other direction. Read it. And after the first few lines realized something very strange was happening. And so I ran around to the front of the house and knocked on the door and was let in."
John Fernie: "I didn't pick it up. It was inside the door and I was outside. The door was locked. I read it through the door."
John Fernie: "Fleet and Priscilla White were there when I arrived. And my wife came shortly thereafter. And our -- Overstock, our priest, came afterwards as well."
John Fernie: "My recollection is that later in the day, when we were waiting for phone calls from the supposed kidnappers, we were sitting in the back room with a detective and trying to figure out what the note meant. And there was a copy of the note. I don't know if it was the note, or a copy of the note, actually."
2001 June 13 - Transcript Testimony of John Fernie - Colorado vs Miller trial

John Fernie told police that he was the first of the Ramsey’s friends to arrive. His wife, Barbara, came later in her car. As Fernie drove over, he thought that John must have had a heart attack, since Patsy hadn’t told his wife what had happened.
Fernie parked his car in the alley behind the Ramsey’s house and ran to the patio door on the south side, which he always used. It was locked. When he looked through the glass-paneled door, the lights were on and he could see some papers lying on the wooden floor. The were not facing him, but from where he stood, he could read the first few lines of one page. That was all he needed. He understood immediately that JonBenét had been kidnapped.
PMPT page 78



I don't think the RN was ever placed on the staircase.
I believe Patsy wrote the note on the kitchen counter near where the Sharpie marker was found.
I believe the note was then placed on the floor near the spiral staircase where it was later pointed out to Officer French.
I believe that whole story about it being on the staircase was part of an effort to frame an “insider”, most notably LHP (initially).
I think the reason for the placement on the floor was to make it more believable that the note was not handled much. This would make it easier to explain the lack of fingerprints.
I believe Fernie embellished his story a bit to make himself seem more important at the cost of his credibility.
I don’t believe that Fernie could have read any part of the RN from outside of the patio door and I don’t believe his story about the butler door being open. JR told police that he found all main floor doors to be secure, and a later walk through by police confirmed this.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi cynic.

Ty for the feedback, illustrations and photos of layout.
LOL at PR floating head.

I believe Fernie embellished his story a bit to make himself seem more important at the cost of his credibility. cynic-

uhmm, ya that does seem most plausible, that a 'witness' would embellish their statement.

 

[cynic]

LOL at PR floating head.

Hey Tadpole

I did get a little carried away :biggrin:

 

[Tadpole12]

naw cynic, that was Primo. Encompassing and
really connected that morning's events
and created a 3D feel.

Greatly helped my understanding.