RN and persons with a key

[madeleine]

I've asked this before (and IMO if IDI he/they didn't go out through that window,the broken window story is ...stinky imo),
wouldn't someone who went out through that window leave some palm/elbow prints at the exit??
LE didn't find any,right?

 

[turtle]

Is it correct that FW put the suitcase under the window? If this is so, why would he do that?

 

[MurriFlower]

Is it correct that FW put the suitcase under the window? If this is so, why would he do that?

I think he admitted to moving it slightly when he first went down there, but it was already under the window.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think he admitted to moving it slightly when he first went down there, but it was already under the window.

I have seen no evidence that it was already under the suitcase. Did FW say that it was? Because he was the only one to see the suitcase in its original place, not LS.

 

[DeeDee249]

Is it correct that FW put the suitcase under the window? If this is so, why would he do that?

He said he moved it when he looked at (and picked up) pieces of broken glass from a window in the basement train room. JR admitted breaking this window himself months earlier and neither he nor Patsy were able to recall if they ever had it fixed, but I recall reading where JR said that he meant to have it fixed but he didn't think they did.

 

[MurriFlower]

He said he moved it when he looked at (and picked up) pieces of broken glass from a window in the basement train room. JR admitted breaking this window himself months earlier and neither he nor Patsy were able to recall if they ever had it fixed.

"Fleet was hoping that JonBenet too was just hiding somewhere in the house. Since everyone had been told by the police officers not to go upstairs, Fleet went town to the basement. He noticed that the lights were on. He found a small piece of glass from a broken window in a room used for model trains. In checking the latch for the window he discovered that it was unlocked, but closed. Fleet also noticed a blue suitcase was sitting underneath the window. He continued with his search by opening every cupboard and door."

 

[DeeDee249]

"Fleet was hoping that JonBenet too was just hiding somewhere in the house. Since everyone had been told by the police officers not to go upstairs, Fleet went town to the basement. He noticed that the lights were on. He found a small piece of glass from a broken window in a room used for model trains. In checking the latch for the window he discovered that it was unlocked, but closed. Fleet also noticed a blue suitcase was sitting underneath the window. He continued with his search by opening every cupboard and door."

What was the source for that? Because I read JR found the basement window open and closed it himself, and didn't mention it to LE.

 

[MurriFlower]

What was the source for that? Because I read JR found the basement window open and closed it himself, and didn't mention it to LE.

It is on ACR.

 

[joeskidbeck]

John gave two different accounts of this. In one he found the open window, closed it and did not tell anyone. Later, on television with Larry King, he said that he found it open and immediately told LE.

 

[cynic]

It appears that both Rick French and Fleet White were in the basement prior to JR, but the timeline with regard to this and many other things in this case is a little fuzzy.
If true, however, then both did not notice that the window was open (FW says it was unlatched.)
Moreover, both did not notice the door to the train room being blocked by a chair.
If JR was downstairs prior to FW and RF, he claimed that he not only closed the window, but latched it as well. This would then contradict FW, who says the window was unlatched.
If the window was found open by JR, why would he close and latch the window?
Finally, if, as he would claim years later, it was his “first impression that the kidnapper had gone through that window,” why would he not call everyone in the house downstairs to point out this vitally important discovery?
JR’s recollection of the window and the importance ascribed to it seems to increase over time.
First it was:
LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember.
1998

Then it becomes:
The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
COURIC: You did tell her about the...
Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
COURIC: ...open window?
Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
2000

He seems to have some problems with his memory a year later.
Q. …did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
A. Not that I recall
2001

Finally, John’s memory recovers fully, 2 years later, and he confidently proclaims:
I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.
2003


Below is a series of Q and A’s on the issue, including all of the above quotes in context:

JR: I said, you know, this window’s broken, but I think I broke it last summer. It just hasn’t been fixed. And it was opened, but I closed it earlier and we got down on the floor and looked around for some glass just to be sure that it hadn’t been broken again.
ST: And Fleet had talked about earlier being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of day was that?
JR: I don’t know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o’clock.
ST: Was that prior to Fleet’s first trip down?
JR: I didn’t know he was in the basement. I didn’t know that. I mean other than that trip with me.
ST: And on the trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?
JR: Yep.
JR 1997 Interview

LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you ever go down to the basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had gone down the basement. I went in the --
LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old
things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe
that far.
LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far were you? An inch?
JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It was cracked open.
LOU SMIT: Which window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.
There's three windows across here, as I recall. I think it was the middle one. It was that was broken. There was pane class broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself.
LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there was a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was positioned?
JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think the handle was on top. It was directly under the window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock it or close it?
JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little latch on it.
LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I think at that point I still was trying to figure out how they'd get in the house.
LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your (INAUDIBLE).
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean, part of what is going on you're in such a state of
disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open
a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.
Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought about it, I thought it was more of an alarming situation how it struck me at the time. It was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.
And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window.
…
LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what time was that? That's kind of important. In terms of time now.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have
been that time period: seven to nine. Cause I was still, you know amidst all this other stuff, trying to figure out what's going on here? How did they get in the house? I know this is before Linda
told us to go through the house. It was well before.
JR 1998 Interview

Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.)
Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).

Q. Do you remember what you saw in the basement when you went down there?
A. I saw a partially opened window with broken glass and a suitcase beneath the window.
Q. When you would - did you see anything else there?
A. Not that looked out of the ordinary.
Q. May I ask why you went to the basement at that time?
A. I was trying to determine how someone could have gotten into our house.
Q. Did anyone ask you to go to the basement at that time?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if anybody saw you go to the basement at that time?
A. I have no idea.
Q. When you saw that the basement was in the condition that it was in, as you have just described it, and you came back upstairs, did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
A. Not that I recall
Q. When Linda Arndt asked you to go down to the basement, I think that was sometime in the early afternoon -
A. I don't remember the time. I really don't.
Q. When she asked you to go down to the basement, could you explain why you chose going to the basement since you had already been there earlier?
A. She told me to go through the house and look for anything - go through the house thoroughly, as I recall, and look for anything that seems out of place. And so my intent was to do it thoroughly.
Q. Did you ask Fleet White to join you?
A. I think I did, as I recall.
Q. Do you remember exactly the sequence of events when you went down to the basement the second time?
A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Q. Can you tell me where you looked?
A. I went back into the train room, showed Fleet the broken window, explained to him that I might have broken it myself months ago. I showed him the suitcase that I saw under the window, which I felt was very out of place. We looked for any large pieces of broken glass. And then I got up and went to the cellar room, opened the door, and found JonBenet.
John Ramsey Deposition, Wolf v Ramsey Lawsuit, December 12, 2001

BARBARA WALTERS: The police searched your house but they didn't find Jon Benet. But at one point you went downstairs and found an open window.
JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
BARBARA WALTERS: A window that you had broken yourself at one point to put your hand through and find the latch.
JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
BARBARA v/o: That window was in a storage room at the rear of the house. It was on the other end of the basement from the room in which JonBenet's body would later be found.
BARBARA WALTERS: What did you think when you saw this open window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was a bit alarmed, but I was more alarmed with the Samsonite suitcase that was standing up below the window.
BARBARA WALTERS: I have seen the actual police photograph that was taken of that window and the suitcase and, and, there it was in full sight.
JOHN RAMSEY: That looked wrong. That suitcase did not belong there.
PATSY RAMSEY: It was out of place.
JOHN RAMSEY: It was out of place.
BARBARA WALTERS: So you thought perhaps..
JOHN RAMSEY: It was...
BARBARA WALTERS: ...the kidnapper had gone through that window.
JOHN RAMSEY: I...that was my first impression, yes.
BARBARA WALTERS 20/20 MAR 15/00
http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID70/42.html

COURIC: Detective Linda Arndt was assigned to the Ramsey home during those long hours. Sometime that morning, John Ramsey headed for the basement. Why did you go there?
Mr. RAMSEY: We had a basement window that was under a--a grate, a removable grate that I had used the past summer to get into the house when I'd lost my keys. I--I wanted to check that window. I went down to that room. The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
COURIC: You did tell her about the...
Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
COURIC: ...open window?
Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
COURIC: And what did she say?
Mr. RAMSEY: I don't recall that she said anything.
Today Show, March 20, 2000
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03202000ramseytodaypt1.htm


KING: In the book, you write about the suitcase and the open basement window, but the police say you never told them about it.
J. RAMSEY: That's false.
P. RAMSEY: False.
J. RAMSEY: I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html

"Each window had four panes, and Fleet White, having been down there earlier, pointed out the baseball-sized hole in the upper left pane of the middle window. 'Damn it, I had to break that,' John Ramsey said, adding that it happened the previous summer when he kicked in the window to get into the house after locking himself out. Should have fixed it then, he noted, taping his forehead. The window was closed but unlatched."
Page 27, ST

"Rick French....was reportedly still tortured by his failure to open the wine cellar door when he searched the house in those first few minutes"
Page 660, Schiller

Larry King: A window. Was that window open when they investigated it?
Lou Smit: Yes. When John Ramsey had first seen the window...
Larry King: There we see a window. That's the window, right?
Lou Smit: That's the window. Now, again, that picture that you see is the first photograph taken of that window after the crime scene technicians got back into the house. Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White. But what that window did show us, when we first seen it, was that entry could have been made there.
May 28, 2001 Larry King Live Interview Lou Smit


Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"
John Ramsey: “Correct.”
Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?”
John Ramsey: “Uh huh.
Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"
John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."
Lou Smit: So you couldn’t have gotten in without moving the chair?”
John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."
Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"
John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."
JR 1998 Interview

 

[Zak]

It appears that both Rick French and Fleet White were in the basement prior to JR, but the timeline with regard to this and many other things in this case is a little fuzzy.
If true, however, then both did not notice that the window was open (FW says it was unlatched.)
Moreover, both did not notice the door to the train room being blocked by a chair.
If JR was downstairs prior to FW and RF, he claimed that he not only closed the window, but latched it as well. This would then contradict FW, who says the window was unlatched.
If the window was found open by JR, why would he close and latch the window?
Finally, if, as he would claim years later, it was his “first impression that the kidnapper had gone through that window,” why would he not call everyone in the house downstairs to point out this vitally important discovery?
JR’s recollection of the window and the importance ascribed to it seems to increase over time.
First it was:
LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember.
1998

Then it becomes:
The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
COURIC: You did tell her about the...
Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
COURIC: ...open window?
Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
2000

He seems to have some problems with his memory a year later.
Q. …did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
A. Not that I recall
2001

Finally, John’s memory recovers fully, 2 years later, and he confidently proclaims:
I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.
2003


Below is a series of Q and A’s on the issue, including all of the above quotes in context:

JR: I said, you know, this window’s broken, but I think I broke it last summer. It just hasn’t been fixed. And it was opened, but I closed it earlier and we got down on the floor and looked around for some glass just to be sure that it hadn’t been broken again.
ST: And Fleet had talked about earlier being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of day was that?
JR: I don’t know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o’clock.
ST: Was that prior to Fleet’s first trip down?
JR: I didn’t know he was in the basement. I didn’t know that. I mean other than that trip with me.
ST: And on the trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?
JR: Yep.
JR 1997 Interview

LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you ever go down to the basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had gone down the basement. I went in the --
LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old
things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe
that far.
LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far were you? An inch?
JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It was cracked open.
LOU SMIT: Which window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.
There's three windows across here, as I recall. I think it was the middle one. It was that was broken. There was pane class broken out of it, which I attributed to breaking myself.
LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there was a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was positioned?
JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think the handle was on top. It was directly under the window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock it or close it?
JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little latch on it.
LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I think at that point I still was trying to figure out how they'd get in the house.
LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your (INAUDIBLE).
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean, part of what is going on you're in such a state of
disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open
a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.
Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought about it, I thought it was more of an alarming situation how it struck me at the time. It was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.
And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window.
…
LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what time was that? That's kind of important. In terms of time now.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have
been that time period: seven to nine. Cause I was still, you know amidst all this other stuff, trying to figure out what's going on here? How did they get in the house? I know this is before Linda
told us to go through the house. It was well before.
JR 1998 Interview

Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.)
Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).

Q. Do you remember what you saw in the basement when you went down there?
A. I saw a partially opened window with broken glass and a suitcase beneath the window.
Q. When you would - did you see anything else there?
A. Not that looked out of the ordinary.
Q. May I ask why you went to the basement at that time?
A. I was trying to determine how someone could have gotten into our house.
Q. Did anyone ask you to go to the basement at that time?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if anybody saw you go to the basement at that time?
A. I have no idea.
Q. When you saw that the basement was in the condition that it was in, as you have just described it, and you came back upstairs, did you inform anybody of what you found in the basement?
A. I don't recall specifically if I did or not. I have a vague recollection of telling Linda Arndt that I found an open window with broken glass, but that I perhaps had broken that glass myself months earlier.
Q. Do you think you might have mentioned that to any other law enforcement officer beside Linda Arndt?
A. Not that I recall
Q. When Linda Arndt asked you to go down to the basement, I think that was sometime in the early afternoon -
A. I don't remember the time. I really don't.
Q. When she asked you to go down to the basement, could you explain why you chose going to the basement since you had already been there earlier?
A. She told me to go through the house and look for anything - go through the house thoroughly, as I recall, and look for anything that seems out of place. And so my intent was to do it thoroughly.
Q. Did you ask Fleet White to join you?
A. I think I did, as I recall.
Q. Do you remember exactly the sequence of events when you went down to the basement the second time?
A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Q. Can you tell me where you looked?
A. I went back into the train room, showed Fleet the broken window, explained to him that I might have broken it myself months ago. I showed him the suitcase that I saw under the window, which I felt was very out of place. We looked for any large pieces of broken glass. And then I got up and went to the cellar room, opened the door, and found JonBenet.
John Ramsey Deposition, Wolf v Ramsey Lawsuit, December 12, 2001

BARBARA WALTERS: The police searched your house but they didn't find Jon Benet. But at one point you went downstairs and found an open window.
JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.
BARBARA WALTERS: A window that you had broken yourself at one point to put your hand through and find the latch.
JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
BARBARA v/o: That window was in a storage room at the rear of the house. It was on the other end of the basement from the room in which JonBenet's body would later be found.
BARBARA WALTERS: What did you think when you saw this open window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was a bit alarmed, but I was more alarmed with the Samsonite suitcase that was standing up below the window.
BARBARA WALTERS: I have seen the actual police photograph that was taken of that window and the suitcase and, and, there it was in full sight.
JOHN RAMSEY: That looked wrong. That suitcase did not belong there.
PATSY RAMSEY: It was out of place.
JOHN RAMSEY: It was out of place.
BARBARA WALTERS: So you thought perhaps..
JOHN RAMSEY: It was...
BARBARA WALTERS: ...the kidnapper had gone through that window.
JOHN RAMSEY: I...that was my first impression, yes.
BARBARA WALTERS 20/20 MAR 15/00
http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID70/42.html

COURIC: Detective Linda Arndt was assigned to the Ramsey home during those long hours. Sometime that morning, John Ramsey headed for the basement. Why did you go there?
Mr. RAMSEY: We had a basement window that was under a--a grate, a removable grate that I had used the past summer to get into the house when I'd lost my keys. I--I wanted to check that window. I went down to that room. The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
COURIC: You did tell her about the...
Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
COURIC: ...open window?
Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
COURIC: And what did she say?
Mr. RAMSEY: I don't recall that she said anything.
Today Show, March 20, 2000
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03202000ramseytodaypt1.htm


KING: In the book, you write about the suitcase and the open basement window, but the police say you never told them about it.
J. RAMSEY: That's false.
P. RAMSEY: False.
J. RAMSEY: I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html

"Each window had four panes, and Fleet White, having been down there earlier, pointed out the baseball-sized hole in the upper left pane of the middle window. 'Damn it, I had to break that,' John Ramsey said, adding that it happened the previous summer when he kicked in the window to get into the house after locking himself out. Should have fixed it then, he noted, taping his forehead. The window was closed but unlatched."
Page 27, ST

"Rick French....was reportedly still tortured by his failure to open the wine cellar door when he searched the house in those first few minutes"
Page 660, Schiller

Larry King: A window. Was that window open when they investigated it?
Lou Smit: Yes. When John Ramsey had first seen the window...
Larry King: There we see a window. That's the window, right?
Lou Smit: That's the window. Now, again, that picture that you see is the first photograph taken of that window after the crime scene technicians got back into the house. Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White. But what that window did show us, when we first seen it, was that entry could have been made there.
May 28, 2001 Larry King Live Interview Lou Smit


Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"
John Ramsey: “Correct.”
Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?”
John Ramsey: “Uh huh.
Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"
John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."
Lou Smit: So you couldn’t have gotten in without moving the chair?”
John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."
Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"
John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."
JR 1998 Interview

Thank you so much for posting this. This is exactly what I was looking for. Basically, we have no proof other than JR's word that he told someone about the open window. Considering his changing statements on this subject, why would I believe anything that he says? We have 3 people in the basement that morning and only 1 person sees the open window? Plus the only person to see the open window happens to be a suspect?

I have another question for you, Cynic. Do you have any statements regarding FW moving the suitcase? The only thing that I have found so far is in PMPT, that FW moved the suitcase several feet to under the window.

 

[MurriFlower]

Thank you so much for posting this. This is exactly what I was looking for. Basically, we have no proof other than JR's word that he told someone about the open window. Considering his changing statements on this subject, why would I believe anything that he says? We have 3 people in the basement that morning and only 1 person sees the open window? Plus the only person to see the open window happens to be a suspect?

I have another question for you, Cynic. Do you have any statements regarding FW moving the suitcase? The only thing that I have found so far is in PMPT, that FW moved the suitcase several feet to under the window.

And if you can find the part about LHP having used the suitcase, I'd appreciate that too.

 

[BBB167893]

I've asked this before (and IMO if IDI he/they didn't go out through that window,the broken window story is ...stinky imo),
wouldn't someone who went out through that window leave some palm/elbow prints at the exit??
LE didn't find any,right?

:clap:

 

[turtle]

And if you can find the part about LHP having used the suitcase, I'd appreciate that too.

What is this about LHP and the suitcase?

 

[cynic]

Thank you so much for posting this. This is exactly what I was looking for

You’re welcome.

Basically, we have no proof other than JR's word that he told someone about the open window. Considering his changing statements on this subject, why would I believe anything that he says? We have 3 people in the basement that morning and only 1 person sees the open window? Plus the only person to see the open window happens to be a suspect?

Why, indeed.

I have another question for you, Cynic. Do you have any statements regarding FW moving the suitcase? The only thing that I have found so far is in PMPT, that FW moved the suitcase several feet to under the window.

I would be very interested in hearing more from Fleet White in general on a number of issues, but in response to your question, there is a bit more on the movement of the suitcase from ST’s book.
It appears that the suitcase was moved twice, once by Fleet White and a second time by John Ramsey.
ST gives the impression that the suitcase may never have been close enough to the window to be used as a “step” since it was moved “several feet” by FW, although it was definitely found near the window initially by FW. After moving it away from the window, FW then presumably moved it back to where he originally found it. Unfortunately, it will never be clear whether it could have been used as a “step” to get out of the window because it was moved, barring a conclusive statement from FW.

JR: Well, and that morning we had certainly focused on the cleaning lady. I mean she had free reign of our house, she had a key, she had spent the weekend, well, had worked there on Thanksgiving weekend, we were out of town. There had been some very bizarre behavior. Shortly before we left town, she called and asked Patsy if she could borrow some money, and Patsy said yes, and then she called, I think it was, I don’t know, Saturday, or something like that, and was crying and had had a fight with her sister, and Patsy said her sister was really mean and she hadn’t paid her rent and she threw her out of the house and then, (inaudible) happens. And ah, that was my first suspicion, and it was, I think that comment was kind of formed on just thinking that. And based on the room was just such an out of the way place that, I just don’t anybody could have walked in off the street and . . . Normally it’s full of Christmas stuff. I mean it’s just packed, you couldn’t get in, because we store all our Christmas stuff so, you know, it’s ah. I mean, based on what I understand, there was a practice not and all of that. Somebody obviously spent some time there, and I guess found their way around the house the same time, but my, I mean my theory is that someone came in through the basement window. Because it was a new Samsonite suitcase also sitting right under the window, and you would have had to, you could have gotten into the house without that, but you couldn’t have gotten out that window without something to step on. And to even have known those windows were there, wouldn’t have been obvious to somebody who just was walking by. But . . .
ST: You talking about the window in the back, was not obvious?
JR: Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, it’s not obvious, but that is to me because that is the way to get into the house, and we know that the grate could be pulled off and the windows were not painted shut and, you know, it’s just I guess that’s why we never gave it much thought about . . .
?: And we asked a couple of times that that grates kind of out of the way, and you have to, I wouldn’t have known it was there. I mean, you can’t see from the back alleyway, you can’t see from the front. It’s out of the ordinary, out of the way picture, excuse me, out of the way window.
JR: Yeah. And when I went down and looked around the house that morning, and I think I’d made a statement or at least I read, I know I said this, that all the doors were locked and I had checked, I believe, every door on the first floor. And they were, appeared to be locked.
ST: So the morning of the 26th do you recall checking all the doors, and they were locked?
JR: I believed I checked all the first-floor doors, yeah. I did go out once. I went out to the door that leads into the garage to see if it was locked because there’s a bunch of boxes piled in front of it and you couldn’t get to it from the inside of the garage. So I did in fact go out of the house once, which would have been for, you know, half a minute.
John Ramsey Interview: April 30, 1997

ST: And I have spoken with Linda, and she’s identified this suitcase as belonging to, well not necessarily belonging to, but a suitcase that she has used and that John Andrew has used, and that John Andrew likely had left at your house.
PR: Right.
ST: Do you recognize that blue suitcase?
PR: Yes.
ST: OK. Can you tell me anything about it?
PR: Well, just it’s old hard Samsonite or whatever, you know.
ST: And what this something that John Andrew let at the 15th Street home while he went to school at CU?
PR: Yeah, yeah, that’s to my recollection. Yeah, he moved out here with a bunch of stuff and then he left a lot of stuff t our house that he didn’t want to take to the dorm.
ST: Do you know where he kept that in your home, or where you last saw that?
PR: No, I don’t remember where I last saw it.
ST: OK.
Patsy Ramsey Interview: April 30, 1997


LOU SMIT: You said that you went through the house at another period of time?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you ever go down to the basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.
LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had gone down the basement. I went in the --
LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?
JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe that far.
LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far were you? An inch?
JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It was cracked open.
LOU SMIT: Which window?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one. There's three windows across here, as I recall. I
think it was the middle one. It was that was broken. There was pane class broken out of it,
which I attributed to breaking myself.
LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?
JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there was a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was positioned?
JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think the handle was on top. It was directly under the window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock it or close it?
JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little latch on it.
LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I
think at that point I still was trying to figure out how they'd get in the house.
LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your (INAUDIBLE).
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean, part of what is going on you're in such a state of disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know, the window had been broken out. And you say hah, that's it. But it was a window that I had used to get into the house before. It was cracked and open a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.
Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in because that basement could get real hot in
winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought about it, I thought it was more of an alarming situation how it struck me at the time. It was still sort of explainable to me that it could have been left open.
And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all the way back there and put it against the window.
LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a little bit as long as your talking about it now.
It was right up against the wall?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that down. When did you?
JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months before, two months before. It was one of these big Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids used it to bring some clothes home, the older kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife. But it was here for a while. It was up in the laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in this room here.
LOU SMIT: That would be in that hall?
JOHN RAMSEY: Just in the landing in the hall area.
LOU SMIT: Okay.
JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm 99.9 percent taken I wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it against that wall.
LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what time was that? That's kind of important. In terms of time now.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have been that time period: seven to nine.
…
So I went down to the basement. I went into this room with Fleet. I explained to him that this window had been cracked open and I closed it. That the window was broken, but I think it was broken by me once before. We got down on our hands and knees looking for some glass just to see.
LOU SMIT: What did you find?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think we found a few fragments of glass not enough to indicate that it was a fresh break.
LOU SMIT: What did you do with those fragments?
JOHN RAMSEY: We might have put them on the ledge, if I remember. It really wasn't much. We had only found one or two. We might have put them up here on the ledge.
LOU SMIT: Could you have put them on the suitcase?
JOHN RAMSEY: Ahhhh, it's possible but I don't remember doing that.
LOU SMIT: Was the suitcase, when you came back, in the same spot it was when you had been?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think I moved it to see or to look for glass then. But I think it was where I left it, where it was when I was down there before.
…
LOU SMIT: Now is that the area that you observed earlier on the 26th and then a little bit
later with Fleet White?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
LOU SMIT: Does that look similar to that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Except for when I was there the suitcase was flat up against the wall.
MIKE KANE: When you say flat up against the wall, how do you mean?
JOHN RAMSEY: It was standing up like this, only it the light surface was against the wall.
LOU SMIT: You said you moved it? Did you mention that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I moved it a bit just to see if there was glass.
…
LOU SMIT: Now you said that you picked up pieces of glass.
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
LOU SMIT: A few little pieces.
JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
LOU SMIT: And did you say you put them on the window well or on the suitcase or do you remember?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure. There wasn't enough there for me to be convinced that the window was broken that morning. I was assuming that it had been broken by me and it hadn't really been fixed.
John Ramsey Interview 1998


"White went downstairs. The lights were on, and shadows danced in the big basement. A small broken window in a large room where a model raiload was laid out caught his attention, and on the floor beneath the window he found a piece of glass, which he placed on the ledge. He dropped to this hands and knees, searching for other pieces, and moved a suitcase in doing so."
Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation," Page 20

"Nevertheless, his theory was that 'someone came in through the basement window, because there was a blue Samsonite suitcase sitting right under the window and he.... could have gotten in the house without that, but you couldn't have gotten out that window without something to step on. Even to have known those windows were there wouldn't have been obvious to anybody just walking by.' The grate, he added, could be pulled off, and the window was not painted shut."
"This was the DA's intruder Theory, althought it contradicted the events of December 26, when Fleet White said Ramsey shrugged off the open window. Now it had become very important, for the open window pointed toward their intruder. And we knew that Fleet White said had moved the suitcase, so the intruder had not done that."
"Ramsey added that during the morning of December 26, 'I went around and I looked around the house that morning and... all the doors were locked and I had checked every door on the first floor and they appeared to be locked.'"
"And the undisturbed dirt and debris on the sill of the basement window, along with the unbroken spiderweb between the metal grate and the wall, demonstrated to me that no one came through that window."
Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" Page 172

"White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to search the house. Alone, he went down to the basement, found some of the lights on, and started calling out JonBenet's name. It was so cluttered down there-with boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and ends-that he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be. he started in Burke's train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. on the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. he placed some of them on the windowsill. then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window."
Lawrence Schiller, Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Page 44

 

[cynic]

And if you can find the part about LHP having used the suitcase, I'd appreciate that too.

You will find it in the April 1997 PR interview in my post above.

 

[MurriFlower]

You will find it in the April 1997 PR interview in my post above.

ST: And I have spoken with Linda, and she’s identified this suitcase as belonging to, well not necessarily belonging to, but a suitcase that she has used and that John Andrew has used, and that John Andrew likely had left at your house.
PR: Right.
ST: Do you recognize that blue suitcase?
PR: Yes.
ST: OK. Can you tell me anything about it?
PR: Well, just it’s old hard Samsonite or whatever, you know.
ST: And what this something that John Andrew let at the 15th Street home while he went to school at CU?
PR: Yeah, yeah, that’s to my recollection. Yeah, he moved out here with a bunch of stuff and then he left a lot of stuff t our house that he didn’t want to take to the dorm.
ST: Do you know where he kept that in your home, or where you last saw that?
PR: No, I don’t remember where I last saw it.
ST: OK.

Thanks cynic. I've always wondered about that part. Where LHP says she had used the suitcase. It seems like a funny thing to just ignore, like what was she doing with a suitcase from the Rs? I guess it's one of the things that makes me wonder if she just used their possessions as if they were her own.

 

[Zak]

ST: And I have spoken with Linda, and she’s identified this suitcase as belonging to, well not necessarily belonging to, but a suitcase that she has used and that John Andrew has used, and that John Andrew likely had left at your house.
PR: Right.
ST: Do you recognize that blue suitcase?
PR: Yes.
ST: OK. Can you tell me anything about it?
PR: Well, just it’s old hard Samsonite or whatever, you know.
ST: And what this something that John Andrew let at the 15th Street home while he went to school at CU?
PR: Yeah, yeah, that’s to my recollection. Yeah, he moved out here with a bunch of stuff and then he left a lot of stuff t our house that he didn’t want to take to the dorm.
ST: Do you know where he kept that in your home, or where you last saw that?
PR: No, I don’t remember where I last saw it.
ST: OK.

Thanks cynic. I've always wondered about that part. Where LHP says she had used the suitcase. It seems like a funny thing to just ignore, like what was she doing with a suitcase from the Rs? I guess it's one of the things that makes me wonder if she just used their possessions as if they were her own.

I wouldn't read too much into her borrowing the R's suitcase. When hubby and I went on vacation last month I borrowed 2 suitcases from my boss. I had my own set, but wanted to take 2 apiece. So its not as unusual as you might think to borrow things from your boss. Also, many times I have lent my boss and her hubby things.

 

[MurriFlower]

I wouldn't read too much into her borrowing the R's suitcase. When hubby and I went on vacation last month I borrowed 2 suitcases from my boss. I had my own set, but wanted to take 2 apiece. So its not as unusual as you might think to borrow things from your boss. Also, many times I have lent my boss and her hubby things.

Yeah, well if it becomes evidence in a murder as this one did, you might expect to be questioned about it? Looks as if this was kind of just skipped over. As you say, it might be nothing, then again, you know how we hate coincidences when investigating murders, Inspector Wexford?

 

[Zak]

Yeah, well if it becomes evidence in a murder as this one did, you might expect to be questioned about it? Looks as if this was kind of just skipped over. As you say, it might be nothing, then again, you know how we hate coincidences when investigating murders, Inspector Wexford?

As evidence in a murder, sure I would expect to be questioned about me borrowing the suitcase in the past. If Linda told the LE that she had used it before, then they must have ask her some questions about that. Sounds like she freely told LE about the suitcase and wasn't hiding anything, thats why I think its no big deal. I understand what you are getting at though, little things like that could end up to be something really big in solving the case. Good eye!