Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #13

[JennieM]

For many, the consequences of viewing Trump as more allied with Russia than Europe has simply been too momentous to contemplate. The belief in a close relationship between western Europe and the US that has dominated government policy in, for instance, Berlin, Helsinki, London and Rome is being put under intolerable strain.

[…]

The abandonment of Ukraine, fuelled by Trump’s personal animosity to Zelenskyy and the cost of the war to the US, has become a means to the greater end, a new relationship with Russia.

[…]

Or take the anger of the Lithuanian politician Vytautas Landsbergis at the treatment of Zelenskyy: “They called the guest in, beat him up, spat on him, and threw him out the door.” What would he have done? “I would have listened silently to everything they said and said one word at the end: liars.”

But it is also the accumulation of decisions being taken by Trump towards Russia, including the end of cyber operations against Russia, and other steps to make the lives of Russian oligarchs easier.

Europe is running out of hope Trump is still open to persuasion over Ukraine

Where the US president sees a convivial leader an ocean away, Europeans see a tyrant on its borders breaking all agreements

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bluebear15]

I don't understand this statement they will not come to Europe's aid unless they are paid. When Russia invaded Ukraine the US sent more troops immediately to Europe and my son was given a 72 hour heads up he'd be heading out. He was there for 6 months in an unplanned deployment to boost forces in Europe. He is there right now again this time a planned deployment, but he's spent nearly a year away from his family this time to train with allied forces in 5 different European countries.

I do not know all the ins and outs of what money is paid by who, but it's not unreasonable to have a limit to the amount of money and resources a country and reasonably provide to another without any deal or return. I feel like the US has been there over and over again for countries all over the world.

The US only sends soldiers to conflicts when it suits them. Like deciding to join ww2 in 1942. The UK and lots of other countries have also been there for countries worldwide and they don't expect compensation. They also don't side with a fascist dictator to steal land and minerals from an independent country. Jmo, moo

 

[Leilei]

He is the CEO of the DOGE, a major government department, he wont have been on any ballot paper but nor was other senior roles like secretary of state

Senior roles in the government go through an entire process. Nomination, confirmation hearings, etc...
Musk went through none of that.
IMO.

 

[Sundog]

He is one of the most famous men on the planet if not THE most famous, who had heard of JD Vance till couple of months ago?

Prior to his election as Vice President of the United States, J.D. Vance served as a Senator in the U.S. Senate, representing Ohio, the state where I currently live. He was elected by his constituents and actually won the election against a long-standing Democrat incumbent senator.

Prior to his election as a senator and Vice President of the United States, JD Vance was well known throughout the country for the pubication of his memoir "Hillbilly Elegy" which is about growing up in poverty in the Appalachian region of Ohio with a mother addicted to drugs and raised by his grandmother. He then went on to study at Ohio State University and then to Yale Law School. His book was made into a movie and produced by well-known director Ron Howard in 2020. Prior to the movie, colleges and universities across the country assigned JD Vance's book, Hillbilly Elegy, to all students, faculty and staff as the annual community reading for discussion to understand the background of those livng in such dire poverty and the impact of drug addiction on families and entire communities.

So J.D. Vance was not an unknown when he was selected by President Trump to be his running mate. Vice President Vance is likely to be the candidate for the 48th president of the United States, and I think he would do a great job at continuing the mission and vision of making America great again.

 

[JennieM]

6h ago16.14 GMT
France’s prime minister said on Tuesday that US president Donald Trump’s decision to suspend weapons’ deliveries to Ukraine in the middle of a war signalled that the United States was abandoning Kyiv and letting Russia win.

“Suspending aid during a war to a country under attack means abandoning the country under attack and accepting or hoping that the aggressor will win,” Francois Bayou said during a parliamentary debate on Ukraine.

He added that Europe now needed to quickly and efficiently replace US weapons’ deliveries.

US and Ukraine ‘preparing to sign minerals deal on Tuesday’, reports suggest – as it happened

Zelenskyy says his country is ready to sign minerals and security agreement while admitting White House meeting ‘did not go the way it was supposed to’

www.theguardian.com

 

[keek]

6h ago16.14 GMT
France’s prime minister said on Tuesday that US president Donald Trump’s decision to suspend weapons’ deliveries to Ukraine in the middle of a war signalled that the United States was abandoning Kyiv and letting Russia win.

“Suspending aid during a war to a country under attack means abandoning the country under attack and accepting or hoping that the aggressor will win,” Francois Bayou said during a parliamentary debate on Ukraine.

He added that Europe now needed to quickly and efficiently replace US weapons’ deliveries.

US and Ukraine ‘preparing to sign minerals deal on Tuesday’, reports suggest – as it happened

Zelenskyy says his country is ready to sign minerals and security agreement while admitting White House meeting ‘did not go the way it was supposed to’

www.theguardian.com

Yea France, sadly he had to even say that. True.

 

[Sundog]

Senior roles in the government go through an entire process. Nomination, confirmation hearings, etc...
Musk went through none of that.
IMO.

Only Cabinet appointments and a few other positions require Senate confirmation. Elon is not a Cabinet Member.

 

[tlcya]

Zelensky’s strong points among his countrymen were his intelligence, patriotism, and strong leadership. In a question about the next presidential election, Zelensky led his closest challenger, Zaluzhnyi, by 44% to 21% “if the election were held tomorrow.” In the poll, 16% wanted their country to continue fighting to win the war, 39% said Ukraine should seek to negotiate an ending to the war as soon as possible, and another 39% said Ukraine should continue fighting but should consider negotiations if military progress stalls. Nearly half in another question, 48%, did not consider the current peace talks between Russia and the US as legitimate, while 32% did not know, and 20% said they were legitimate.
How Popular Is Zelensky In Ukraine? What The Polls Show

 

[Summerliz03]

Only Cabinet appointments and a few other positions require Senate confirmation. Elon is not a Cabinet Member.

Then why did he sit in on the most recent Cabinet meeting (I can’t remember if it was last week or the week before)? And why did he wear a t-shirt and a baseball hat to said Cabinet meeting? Everyone else was in a suit, why wasn’t he dressed appropriately?

 

[justtrish]

The US only sends soldiers to conflicts when it suits them. Like deciding to join ww2 in 1942. The UK and lots of other countries have also been there for countries worldwide and they don't expect compensation. They also don't side with a fascist dictator to steal land and minerals from an independent country. Jmo, moo

https://www.reuters.com/world/how-much-aid-have-ukraines-western-allies-provided-2025-03-04/

This article includes a breakdown of financials for various countries who have given grants and LOANS to Ukraine. I don't know that it's unreasonable to expect some compensation. Funds are just not unlimited and the United States has given a lot. Plenty of countries in Europe also have loaned money so I'd assume that means there is an agreement that compensation at some point will be provided.

I don't agree that President Trump is siding with Putin. I think he's trying to get a peace deal that benefits Ukraine and prevents WW3.

 

[SouthAussie]

As far as I can tell, the only part that Musk has in this entire conversation is that Russia has offered the US a joint Mars project during their recent meetings, a project that would involve Musk. (linked below)

Although I understand the need to point out what Musk wears to the Oval Office, considering the extraordinary focus on Zelenskyy's attire.

imo



This Bloomberg link outlines the 'business opportunities' offered by Russia to the US in their recent meetings:

• a joint US-Russia mission to Mars, involving Musk also
• Putin offering to work with the US to mine Russian rare earth metals
• to sell 2 million tons of aluminium to the US if the US lifts sanctions
• Russia and the US forming a joint venture for aluminium production in Siberia

It says that Russia is looking for ways to exploit Trump's pragmatism. Putin’s strategy toward Trump reflects his training as a Soviet KGB agent in the Soviet KGB - which uses similar “mirroring” techniques to gain the trust of recruitment targets.

Putin Envoy Dangles Business Ties to Lure US to Ukraine Deal

 

[Sundog]

Then why did he sit in on the most recent Cabinet meeting (I can’t remember if it was last week or the week before)? And why did he wear a t-shirt and a baseball hat to said Cabinet meeting? Everyone else was in a suit, why wasn’t he dressed appropriately?

Presidents will invite various individuals who are not Cabinet members to their meetings to give reports on initiatives, etc. which is very common. Remember that Jill Biden sat at the head table at one of her husband's Cabinet meetings and raised eyebrows across the country. She was ostensibly there to report on a Biden administration program for women which, as First Lady, may have been a project she supported or took an interest in.

ebm

 

[tlcya]

As far as I can tell, the only part that Musk has in this entire conversation is that Russia has offered the US a joint Mars project, with the involvement of Musk. (linked below)

Although I understand the need to point out what Musk wears to the Oval Office, considering the extraordinary focus on Zelenskyy's attire.

imo



This Bloomberg link outlines the 'business opportunities' offered by Russia to the US in their recent meetings:

• a joint US-Russia mission to Mars, involving Musk also
• Putin offering to work with the US to mine Russian rare earth metals
• to sell 2 million tons of aluminium to the US if the US lifts sanctions
• Russia and the US forming a joint venture for aluminium production in Siberia

It says that Russia is looking for ways to exploit Trump's pragmatism. Putin’s strategy toward Trump reflects his training as a Soviet KGB agent in the Soviet KGB - which uses similar “mirroring” techniques to gain the trust of recruitment targets.

Putin Envoy Dangles Business Ties to Lure US to Ukraine Deal

I think many of us were very shocked to be informed that man is our de facto VP.

But your point is well taken. He really isn't the focus of this thread.

 

[Charlot123]

The UK does have a 20% tarriff on some imports. I'm not sure what it applies to. I do know that April 2nd, the US will be imposing a reciprocal tarriff. Whatever the country charges US for imports we will extend that same tariff for exports to the United States. Kind of what goes around comes around.

NAFTA was years ago. We far exceed imports from Mexico than we export to them. We export more to Canada then we import. Wonder why doesn't import clothing to the US. I would much prefer to buy from Canada to Mexico. It may be due to cost. Mexico has cheap labor, offer speed benefits and I think they're quality is kind of iffy.

Moo

It seems that US is at a hard moment in time. Who is the friend or the foe...the country itself is divided and there is a lot of uncertainty but... you don't need to drop old friends to get the new ones.

If you view countries with high population density that are rapidly developing as your economic rivals, much less sense to alienate Canada IMHO. Canada also needs markets for its goods, it is in exactly the same situation as the US, what do you think the outcome of tariffs will be?

If there is a personal dislike of Canadian current leader (as I suspect), he is not going to run again.

Same with that meeting. I do suspect Trump got angry for a reason but logically, no sense to put Zelenskyy in such a situation publicly because people side with the underdog.

Ukraine, sadly, has the same problem as most post-Soviet countries (except for the ones that became EU members long ago). I mean, high corruption index. Explaining things economically works. This is how much we have sent in aid, this is what has been lost via third parties. No need to alienate the EU or talk about democracy. If it becomes the matter of, “1/X portion of the aid we sent is being siphoned off somewhere, it is unsustainable, so we need return on our money now”, it would convince me.

 

[Summerliz03]

Presidents will invite various individuals who are not Cabinet members to their meetings to give reports on initiatives, etc. which is very common. Remember that Jill Biden sat at the head table at one of her husband's Cabinet meetings and raised eyebrows across the country. She was ostensibly there to report on a Biden administration program for women.

Was she wearing a t-shirt and a baseball hat to that cabinet meeting?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Presidents will invite various individuals who are not Cabinet members to their meetings to give reports on initiatives, etc. which is very common. Remember that Jill Biden sat at the head table at one of her husband's Cabinet meetings and raised eyebrows across the country. She was ostensibly there to report on a Biden administration program for women which, as First Lady, may have been a project she supported or took an interest in.

ebm

He wears "disrespectful" attire in the WH, though.

Why is it okay for him to disrespect the WH and not Z?

 

[Leilei]

Only Cabinet appointments and a few other positions require Senate confirmation. Elon is not a Cabinet Member.

True on both parts. Thanks!

 

[Arkay]

Personally I’ve been biting my fingers, trying not to post here because it’s such a divisive topic.

I will say first that Trump has two policies which align with my values; one foreign policy and one domestic policy.

In every other way, including his behavior toward Zelenskyy, I absolutely cannot agree.

Some see Trump as an individualist, a plain speaker etc.

I see him as someone animated by praise and flattery, as well as a ferocious longing to be admired by strongmen like Putin and Kim Jong-Un.

Only Putin can stop this war by retreating from Ukraine, which is a sovereign country as well as a democratic ally of the United States. The only way to get Putin to stop is by giving him what he wants—-territory that used to belong to the Russian Empire and then the USSR. All of which he’s said he’d like to have reconstituted.

Trump said he’d stop the war in what, a day? He can’t though, so he’s thrilled to try to destroy Zelenskyy and maybe then Putin will be his BFF.


If anyone remembers this video that was in all the news (it says Facebook but was taken from The NY Times), the morning after the Russian attacks, Zelenskyy is no coward. He has also dressed this way since the beginning of the war—-it is his uniform while his country is on a war footing. Zelenskyy made this video knowing full well that Putin always manages to murder those who go against him. Navalny and many, many others.

3.1M views · 106K reactions | "The president is here." President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine posted a video on social media showing him standing alongside other government officials, saying that the country’s leaders had not fled Kyiv as Russian fo

"The president is here." President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine posted a video on social media showing him standing alongside other government officials, saying that the country’s leaders had not...

www.facebook.com

IMO Trump’s behavior to Zelenskyy, while he thinks it makes him look like a tough, no-nonsense guy, is actually belittling the status of his office. A toddler’s temper tantrum before the whole world. Zelenskyy has been thankful to America since the start of the war, but Trump doesn’t feel PERSONALLY praised enough because he wasn’t the president then, so he has to bully a man who really isn’t in a position to stand up to the U.S. right now.

My grandfather had to flee Ukraine under Czar Nicholas II because the Cossacks were killing Jews, and my great-grandfather was hung from a Ukrainian tree.

This is a different generation, though. A democratic ally. We’ve always had a reputation as “the world’s policeman.”

A war that attacks and murders civilians in their homes can never be a just war.

There are posters here who see this differently, some of whom I respect and with whom I am friendly, but I cannot agree with them in this case.

All my opinion.

ETA: I’m a lifelong New Yorker who has met Trump several times, back when he was just a prominent real-estate developer. I’ve met his father, too, years ago.

This reminds me of the other issue that I believe is energizing him in this situation, which is the right to grab all those priceless rare-earth minerals. He will trample over every Ukrainian citizen in a scorched-earth effort to get them. A fair deal would be fine with a willing Ukraine. Extorting a nation is not.

JMO

 

[JennieM]

2h ago21.27 GMT
Meanwhile, Britain’s foreign secretary has reiterated European allies’ determination to strike a peace deal for Ukraine.

In a post on X on Tuesday, David Lammy said he had spoken to his counterparts in France, Germany, Poland, Italy and Spain about Ukraine and that their support was unwavering:

“We will step up and we are stepping up - together.”

His post comes as late on Tuesday, both Ukraine and the US appeared to be once again close to signing a critical minerals deal that the White House has indicated is a precursor to peace talks. Reuters has reported that US president Donald Trump could announce such an agreement in a speech to both houses of Congress on Tuesday night.

Coming just hours after the US halted military aid for Ukraine, the latest developments underline the chaotic nature of the relationship between Kyiv and Washington under Trump.

US and Ukraine ‘preparing to sign minerals deal on Tuesday’, reports suggest – as it happened

Zelenskyy says his country is ready to sign minerals and security agreement while admitting White House meeting ‘did not go the way it was supposed to’

www.theguardian.com

 

[MadMcGoo]

PLEASE, stop discussing attire. Period.

I’d like to remind everyone that instructions or notes posted by an Administrator or Moderator should not be ignored.

Respectfully,
“Zero-tolerance Mad”