Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #13

[JennieM]

3m ago18.21 GMT
Protesters gathered outside the US embassy in London on Wednesday, holding Ukrainian flags and chanting “Russian troops out” and “Russia is a terrorist state”.

Demonstrators hold placards and waves flags as they take part in a 'Stop Putin - Stop Trump' pro-Ukraine protest, outside the US Embassy in London. Photograph: Adrian Dennis/AFP/Getty Images

Demonstrators hold placards as they take part in a 'Stop Putin - Stop Trump' pro-Ukraine protest, outside the US Embassy in London. Photograph: Adrian Dennis/AFP/Getty Images

Labour MP John McDonnell speaks through a megaphone during a 'Stop Putin - Stop Trump' pro-Ukraine protest outside the US Embassy in London. Photograph: Adrian Dennis/AFP/Getty Images

Macron open to extending France’s nuclear umbrella to European allies as US reconsiders Ukraine funding – as it happened

French president says he will debate offer at European summit to be attended by Ukraine’s president Zelenskyy

www.theguardian.com

 

[UK Girl]

The Trump administration is against pressuring Russia

Journalist: "So far it looks like a lot of pressure on Ukraine, but not much pressure on Russia. Do you expect to do maybe, more sanctions on Russia, or any other steps, to pressure both sides if you want to have them at the a negotiation table?"

Vice president JD Vance: "I don't think that's right, actually. I mean, we still have a number of sanctions that are placed on the Russians. We do believe that the Russians, economically are struggling because of this conflict".

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896970460354474459

Friedrich Merz, the projected next German chancellor, plans to allocate an additional €3 billion in aid to Ukraine, which had been frozen by Scholz — Le Monde

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897025002568036839

“The US is talking about working positively with Russia, appeasing Vladimir Putin — a lying murderous dictator. Make that makes sense,” — Canadian PM Trudeau

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897049496498090346

Yet its ok to attack Zelensky in the White house, call him things before that meeting and since? and basically blackmail him? but we must not upset Putin? He is coming across as a weak leader I am afraid

 

[Marantz4250b]

Trump is just using his bullying tactics. A national disgrace. He'll back off when it looks like he isn't going to get what he wants. Then he'll lie and distract to make it look like he still won. JMO

Agreed.

As I say in my previous post - Trump can say what he likes about invading or annexing wherever he likes. He still needs people to actually do it for him.

I don't believe that the US military will do something so dishonourable, quite honestly. The men and women who have spent their lives trying to do the decent thing won't blindly execute grossly illegal orders.

 

[JennieM]

US intelligence 'has been fundamental' for Ukraine​

US intelligence sharing is "more important" for Ukraine than the military aid cut-off, the Economist’s defence editor Shashank Joshi tells the BBC's PM programme.

That's because "they could fight for months without munition, however they will feel this immediately", he says.

"It’s at times been absolutely fundamental for Ukraine", Joshi says, explaining that "on day one of this conflict" Western intelligence supplied to Ukraine allowed them to anticipate and defend against a Russian assault on an airport outside of Kyiv.

Since then, US intelligence has been used for alerts on incoming ballistic missiles, as well as for information to effectively use long-range strike systems.

But Joshi says Ukraine also has some indigenous intelligence sources as well as commercial sources, adding: "I also don’t want to suggest that it’s cataclysmal and they can no longer see anything at all."

He says for now, Ukraine still has access to Starlink - Elon Musk's satellite internet company - but they anticipate it could be cut off soon and are actively working on replacements.

US and Ukraine officials to meet next week to discuss peace plans, Zelensky says

The Ukrainian leader says he will travel to Saudi Arabia where talks on bringing a "lasting" peace will take place.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[STAGNUM]

Agreed.

As I say in my previous post - Trump can say what he likes about invading or annexing wherever he likes. He still needs people to actually do it for him.

I don't believe that the US military will do something so dishonourable, quite honestly. The men and women who have spent their lives trying to do the decent thing won't blindly execute grossly illegal orders.

I wish I was as confident that the military, or at least a great number of them, won't fall into his trap. The propaganda has been running deep for a long time. If they are instructed to say put down US protesters, they very well might. Kent State for example. Historically veterans from Vietnam were feeling disenfranchised because the media propaganda had twisted anti-war protesters into anti-soldier "commies". From my perspective folks protesting wanted the war to stop so that American soldiers (Conscripts) would not die. I did not realize this until talking with a co-worker who had been in Vietnam. As far as taking land from Panama or Greenland, Trump will paint a picture of those folks as being anti-American and sub-human.

 

[STAGNUM]

This is a very salient point. I get the impression that the vast majority of the US forces are deeply honourable men and women - especially the senior ones and those who have served for many years.

Annexing Greenland or the Panama Canal is illegal in the extreme and, under their oath, an illegal order need not, indeed MUST NOT, be complied with! Illegal orders trump The Trumpeter!

The decent, respectable and honourable people who pass on the supreme commander's orders in the upper echelons of the US military will, I have no doubt at all, have been doing much soul searching for many weeks now and especially over the past few days.

Trump's big failing is that the people charged with actually implementing his orders are actually the ones with the integrity and the honesty. The US military is not going to be carrying out anything clearly illegal, immoral or lacking in honour any time soon, I don't think.

I wish I was as confident as you are on this. However the propaganda has been simmering for a decade . And you have that pesky problem of being held for treason by ignoring or countermanding orders from above.

 

[UK Girl]

In a perfect world, you are absolutely right.

But..... needless to say, we are not living in a perfect world. At the end of the day, Ukraine is running out of willing soldiers and is also facing a US president who will not support what one member forum accurately described as a "forever war".

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/08/europe/ukraine-military-morale-desertion-intl-cmd/index.html

Thing is had they been allowed to keep the weapons they had they may not have been invaded.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wish I was as confident as you are on this. However the propaganda has been simmering for a decade . And you have that pesky problem of being held for treason by ignoring or countermanding orders from above.

I wish I was as confident that the military, or at least a great number of them, won't fall into his trap. The propaganda has been running deep for a long time. If they are instructed to say put down US protesters, they very well might. Kent State for example. Historically veterans from Vietnam were feeling disenfranchised because the media propaganda had twisted anti-war protesters into anti-soldier "commies". From my perspective folks protesting wanted the war to stop so that American soldiers (Conscripts) would not die. I did not realize this until talking with a co-worker who had been in Vietnam. As far as taking land from Panama or Greenland, Trump will paint a picture of those folks as being anti-American and sub-human.

You make good points.

Lots more I want to say but it'll probably get pulled so I'll refrain.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Thing is had they been allowed to keep the weapons they had they may not have been invaded.

Indeed!

The argument for a nuclear deterrent literally playing out in stark reality!

 

[JennieM]

Macron: We are in a new era​

We're now hearing from French President Emmanuel Macron, via live translation.

He says the US has changed its position on the Ukrainian war, while at the same time wanting to impose trade tariffs on Europe.

He says security has become more uncertain, adding "we are now in a new era".

France's security also threatened by Putin's invasion - Macron​

Macron moves onto address the war in Ukraine specifically.

He says that it is not only the Ukrainian people who are fighting bravely, but France's security is also threatened.

He says that if one country can invade another, then nobody can be sure of what will happen - history has shown us this.

The threat of Russia is there, and it is touching us, Macron adds.

The French president goes on to list ways this threat is being carried out by Putin, citing attacks on hospitals as well as claiming that the country is manipulating opinions on social media.

Who can believe that Russia will stop with Ukraine, he asks, after suggesting that the country is focusing on arming itself.

We cannot abandon Ukraine on the way to peace, says Macron​

The path to peace cannot go by "abandoning Ukraine", Macron says.

He adds that Russia didn't respect a previous ceasefire arrangement that had been negotiated, and therefore "we can no longer believe the words" of the country's leader.

Macron says he is working with allies in the UK, Germany and several other countries in Europe.

He talks about security guarantees for Ukraine after any peace deal is agreed, including the "deployment of European forces" to the country.

US and Ukraine officials to meet next week to discuss peace plans, Zelensky says

The Ukrainian leader says he will travel to Saudi Arabia where talks on bringing a "lasting" peace will take place.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

1m ago19.12 GMT

Russia a 'real threat' to Europe, says Macron as he urges not to 'abandon' Ukraine​

France’s president Emmanuel Macron, in a pre-recorded address to the nation, said the US has “changed its position” on the Ukraine war while trying to impose trade tariffs on European goods.

“We are entering a new era,” Macron said. He said France made the “right choice” by supporting Ukraine for the last three years.

It’s not just the people of Ukraine who are fighting for their freedom. It’s also our security which is under threat. If a country can invade its neighbour in Europe and go unpunished … peace can no longer be guaranteed on our own continent.

Macron said history has taught us that the Russian threat “is real" and affects European countries. “Ukraine has become a global conflict,” he said.

Russia has become and will remain a threat to France and Europe.

He urged for steps to guarantee the security of France, Europe and Ukraine. “The path to peace cannot be achieved by abandoning Ukraine,” he said.

Macron open to extending France’s nuclear umbrella to European allies as US reconsiders Ukraine funding – as it happened

French president says he will debate offer at European summit to be attended by Ukraine’s president Zelenskyy

www.theguardian.com

 

[UK Girl]

I personally feel that some portions of it were tongue-in-cheek hints at something that he as a politician (and unlike Trump, JD Vance is one) can not openly say.

If you forget the “free speech” phrase itself but focus on the examples he uses, especially for Britain, the message is very clear.

But, once Trump won his elections on bluntly saying the most unpolitical things. I bet JD is a good learner.

Question: does he get slaughtered in GB at the “free speech” level or at the specific examples level? Because all I hear here is “free speech” part. This was not the goal IMHO.

No it was not tongue in cheek what was being said here. People really are angry here at Vance.

 

[JennieM]

4m ago19.19 GMT

Macron says Europe needs to be 'ready' for the US to 'not be at our side'​

Macron said Russia cannot be taken at its word. “We cannot forget Russia started its invasion of Ukraine in 2014 and we negotiated the Minsk Accords ceasefire,” he said.

He said France will continue to meet with allies with the goal of signing a “lasting, solid, verifiable peace agreement”.

He said he has been working with European partners and Ukraine on this plan, and that he went to “advocate” for the plan when he visited Donald Trump last week.

“I want to believe that the US will stand by our side, but we have to be ready for that not to be the case,” he said.


1m ago19.28 GMT

Macron says he will open debate about extending France's nuclear umbrella to European allies​

Macron said EU leaders are meeting for an “extraordinary” summit in Brussels on Thursday to agree to increasing military expenditure and ensure armaments can be produced in Europe.

France has to recognise its “special status” as having the “most efficient, effective army in Europe” as well as having nuclear weapons.

He said he will ask the French government to work on a new investment to allow it to mobilise private and public financing without tax increases.

“Our nuclear deterrent helps us,” Macron said. He added that he will open debate about extending the French nuclear umbrella to European partners.

Macron said that Germany’s likely future chancellor, Friedrich Merz, has called for a debate on providing protection from the nuclear deterrent to European allies.

Whatever happens the decision will be in the hands of the president of the Republic and the heads of the army.

Macron open to extending France’s nuclear umbrella to European allies as US reconsiders Ukraine funding – as it happened

French president says he will debate offer at European summit to be attended by Ukraine’s president Zelenskyy

www.theguardian.com

 

[Arkay]

Agreed.

As I say in my previous post - Trump can say what he likes about invading or annexing wherever he likes. He still needs people to actually do it for him.

I don't believe that the US military will do something so dishonourable, quite honestly. The men and women who have spent their lives trying to do the decent thing won't blindly execute grossly illegal orders.

I’m not sure. The only family member of mine who’s been to war is my dad, in the Korean War. He’s 92 now and would tell me such a choice never arose when he was there.

It’s my impression that obedience to the chain of command is deeply embedded in the military, and punitive action would follow if they disobey orders. I don’t know if it would be considered AWOL, or dishonorably discharged, or anything at all.

Somehow the draft-dodger Donald J. Trump is the Commander-in-Chief.

@justtrish and @Vern will know. @Vern is Canadian military but she will know anyway.

Or if anyone else here is military, would you inform us?????

 

[UK Girl]

Macron considering DC visit with Zelensky and Starmer - spokesperson​

​

French President Emmanuel Macron is considering returning to Washington for talks with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and UK PM Keir Starmer, government spokesperson Sophie Primas says at a news conference at the Élysée Palace.

Earlier today, Primas reiterared France's commitment to helping Kyiv re-establish its relations with the US.

• For context: All three leaders visited the White House separately for talks last week with US President Donald Trump

US and Ukraine officials to meet next week to discuss peace plans, Zelensky says

The Ukrainian leader says he will travel to Saudi Arabia where talks on bringing a "lasting" peace will take place.

www.bbc.co.uk

I suggested this last night. I do not think he should go back there on his own.

 

[UK Girl]

Macron: We are in a new era​

We're now hearing from French President Emmanuel Macron, via live translation.

He says the US has changed its position on the Ukrainian war, while at the same time wanting to impose trade tariffs on Europe.

He says security has become more uncertain, adding "we are now in a new era".

France's security also threatened by Putin's invasion - Macron​

Macron moves onto address the war in Ukraine specifically.

He says that it is not only the Ukrainian people who are fighting bravely, but France's security is also threatened.

He says that if one country can invade another, then nobody can be sure of what will happen - history has shown us this.

The threat of Russia is there, and it is touching us, Macron adds.

The French president goes on to list ways this threat is being carried out by Putin, citing attacks on hospitals as well as claiming that the country is manipulating opinions on social media.

Who can believe that Russia will stop with Ukraine, he asks, after suggesting that the country is focusing on arming itself.

We cannot abandon Ukraine on the way to peace, says Macron​

The path to peace cannot go by "abandoning Ukraine", Macron says.

He adds that Russia didn't respect a previous ceasefire arrangement that had been negotiated, and therefore "we can no longer believe the words" of the country's leader.

Macron says he is working with allies in the UK, Germany and several other countries in Europe.

He talks about security guarantees for Ukraine after any peace deal is agreed, including the "deployment of European forces" to the country.

US and Ukraine officials to meet next week to discuss peace plans, Zelensky says

The Ukrainian leader says he will travel to Saudi Arabia where talks on bringing a "lasting" peace will take place.

www.bbc.co.uk

He is saying what most of us think tbh

 

[UK Girl]

If even Farage is calling out Vance then you know things are bad MSN

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Ukrainian and American delegations will meet "soon" for peace talks, President Volodymyr Zelensky's Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on March 5, following discussions with U.S. National Security Advisor Mike Waltz.

"We discussed further steps towards a just and lasting peace," he wrote on Telegram.

The two sides "also exchanged views on security issues and the coordination of positions within the framework of bilateral relations between Ukraine and the United States," Yermak said, adding the teams agreed to meet in the near future to "continue this important work."

Ukraine, US delegations to meet 'soon' for negotiations, Zelensky's top aide says

Ukrainian and American delegations will meet "soon" for peace talks, President Volodymyr Zelensky's Chief of Staff Andriy Yermak said on March 5, following discussions with U.S. National Security Advisor Mike Waltz.

kyivindependent.com

 

[UK Girl]

Didn't Trump say he got on well with the Chinese President last week? Pete Hegseth says the US is 'prepared' to go to war with China

 

[Marantz4250b]

If even Farage is calling out Vance then you know things are bad MSN

This with actual bells on!

And I don't object to a lot of what Farage says.