Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #13

[UK Girl]

Well said.

In the past, Ukraine did voluntarily give up nuclear weapons in exchange that Russia recognized and affirmed the then current borders. Sadly, however, that irony does not change the present day reality at all.

Part of it was also that if they gave up the weapons that they would be protected in the future

 

[LibraStarr]

Thank you, then it should not be a bash US when we pause our efforts. JMO MOO

The problem isn’t just that aid is paused; it’s how it was done. Diplomacy matters, and suddenly halting support without clear communication or coordination puts Ukraine and our allies in a vulnerable position. If anything, the U.S. is the one throwing punches right now—at Ukraine, at Europe, and at its own credibility as a reliable ally.
IMO

 

[UK Girl]

Thank you, then it should not be a bash US when we pause our efforts. JMO MOO

Apart from the fact you are meant to be our ally...that you(America) promised to support them if they gave the weapons which they did, that we do not expect allies to be called dictators and everything else and the disaster in the White house whilst sucking up to Putin.

 

[Cryptic]

Fact-check: Trump, again, wrongly states that the United States has given Ukraine $350 billion since Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022, and that Europe has given just $100 billion.

My bet is that it would be nearly impossible to "fact check" either Trump or the European leaders. In the end, the value of the aid can be spun many different ways for many different reasons:

How does one value older equipment (purchase as new cost, or current value as used, or as a spun "replacement value")? Were the purchase costs of new gear inflated to begin with? etc. etc.

 

[UK Girl]

Interesting. They want to cancel Musk. One of the reasons he bought Twitter was so a wide range of beliefs could be debated.

From the link -
Nobel prize-winner Prof Sir Andre Geim from Manchester University said: "Musk is certainly an eccentric, but his achievements beat those of any of his critics in the Royal Society. Very few can say that they achieved similar in their lives."

Other scientists who spoke to the BBC pointed out that an attempt to remove Mr Musk's fellowship could be seen as political interference and a curtailment of freedom of expression.

Really? I guess it only applies to some of his companies MSN

 

[Stella123]

Surely Europe and other nations supporting Ukraine have technology, when are they stepping in? JMO MOO

It was reported today that the US told the UK they must NOT share intelligence with Ukraine! US and UK will have shared intelligence.

"Donald Trump bans Uk from sharing intelligence with Ukraine"

Donald Trump bans Britain from sharing US intelligence with Ukraine

DONALD TRUMP has banned Britain from sharing intelligence from the United States with Ukraine, according to reports ...

www.thenational.scot

 

[UK Girl]

It was reported today that the US told the UK they must NOT share intelligence with Ukraine! US and UK will have shared intelligence.

"Donald Trump bans Uk from sharing intelligence with Ukraine"

Donald Trump bans Britain from sharing US intelligence with Ukraine

DONALD TRUMP has banned Britain from sharing intelligence from the United States with Ukraine, according to reports ...

www.thenational.scot

It is hard to see how the U.S can come back from this tbh. Ukraine is its ally or supposed to be. I guess on the other hand Trump should not share intelligence with Putin.

 

[STAGNUM]

It is hard to see how the U.S can come back from this tbh. Ukraine is its ally or supposed to be. I guess on the other hand Trump should not share intelligence with Putin.

I hope some decent human being at Menwith Hill has tapped the US-Russia red phone.

 

[UK Girl]

The funny thing about this is last week when the Uk said we was increasing our defence budget Russia kicked off saying there was no need to do that but then you see this MSN

 

[Stella123]

It does worry me that it might turn into a World War. Putin is doing a good job of manipulating - separating the US from Europe - weakening all the alliances. I think Trump is foolish to trust Putin. I understand Trump doesn't want to get into a war with Russia as then it would be a world war. But witholding aid and intelligence from Ukraine is just absolutely despicable. All because of an ego! Because he is annoyed about that meeting.

 

[shotgun09]

" Find the Cost of Freedom, Buried in the Ground.
" Mother Earth will Follow you, lay your Body down " CSN&Y, 1971


Peace

 

[keek]

" Find the Cost of Freedom, Buried in the Ground.
" Mother Earth will Follow you, lay your Body down " CSN&Y, 1971


Peace

Love.

 

[branmuffin]

I hope this "bigger and better deal" Trump refers to, is not the one with Putin (Putin offered a rare minerals deal in Russia).

Yeah, and I bet those rare minerals were in Ukrainian territory. Anyone who thinks Trump and Putin are not working in concert is being purposely obtuse.

 

[JennieM]

45m ago23.50 GMT

Senate Democrats introduce resolutions calling on Russia to withdraw from Ukraine​

Senate Democrats are currently on the Senate floor introducing resolutionscondemning Russia for the invasion of Ukraine, and daring Republicans to object.

A statement from the office of Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent who caucuses with Democrats, said: “The senators’ resolutions are statements of fact and principle, backed by evidence and long-standing American foreign policy”.

The six resolutions, Sanders’ office explained, would state the following facts:

• Clarifying that Russia started the war against Ukraine.
• Condemning Putin and Russian forces for their widespread war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine.
• Condemning Russia’s forcible abduction of at least 20,000 Ukrainian children and calls for their return to their families.
• Reaffirming the support of the United States for Ukraine’s sovereignty in the face of Russia’s invasion.
• Restating a simple but fundamental principle of international law and global stability: that you do not take the territory of another country by force.
• Demanding that Putin immediately withdraw Russian forces from Ukraine, cease his attacks, and end this terrible war.

A resolution from Sanders, calling on the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, to withdraw Russian forces from Ukraine was objected to by Republican Senator James Risch.

As Igor Bobic of HuffPost reported, Risch claimed that Putin “does not have the ability to end this war” without the agreement of Ukraine, the US and its European allies.

“Who do you think started the war?” Sanders replied. “He can do it.”

The same Republican also objected to a resolution from Democratic Senator Dick Durbin, who asked for unanimous consent on a resolution condemning the kidnapping of Ukrainian children by Russia.

Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen then introduced a resolution stating that Russia had committed war crimes in Ukraine. That resolution was objected to by Republican Senator Roger Wicker.

Wicker then also objected to a resolution affirming Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty introduced by Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal. Wicker’s objection was breifly interrupted by the ringing of his mobile phone.

Democratic Senator Michael Bennet was next on the floor, loudly complaining about the US cutting off intelligence sharing with Ukraine. “Ronald Reagan is turning over in his grave,” Bennet said, over a US national security strategy apparently concocted on social media.

He then yielded the floor and was followed by Democratic Senator Peter Welch, who asked: “Which side are we on?” He introduced a resolution that the US remains committed to the principle that no nation should use force to violate the territorial integrity of another country. Republican Senator John Barrasso objected.

Senate Democrats condemn Russia over Ukraine war and dare Republicans to object – as it happened

Democrats introduce resolutions on Senate floor, as Trump veterans affairs chief defends plans to cut 80,000 staff

www.theguardian.com

 

[UK Girl]

45m ago23.50 GMT

Senate Democrats introduce resolutions calling on Russia to withdraw from Ukraine​

Senate Democrats are currently on the Senate floor introducing resolutionscondemning Russia for the invasion of Ukraine, and daring Republicans to object.

A statement from the office of Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent who caucuses with Democrats, said: “The senators’ resolutions are statements of fact and principle, backed by evidence and long-standing American foreign policy”.

The six resolutions, Sanders’ office explained, would state the following facts:

• Clarifying that Russia started the war against Ukraine.
• Condemning Putin and Russian forces for their widespread war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine.
• Condemning Russia’s forcible abduction of at least 20,000 Ukrainian children and calls for their return to their families.
• Reaffirming the support of the United States for Ukraine’s sovereignty in the face of Russia’s invasion.
• Restating a simple but fundamental principle of international law and global stability: that you do not take the territory of another country by force.
• Demanding that Putin immediately withdraw Russian forces from Ukraine, cease his attacks, and end this terrible war.

A resolution from Sanders, calling on the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, to withdraw Russian forces from Ukraine was objected to by Republican Senator James Risch.

As Igor Bobic of HuffPost reported, Risch claimed that Putin “does not have the ability to end this war” without the agreement of Ukraine, the US and its European allies.

“Who do you think started the war?” Sanders replied. “He can do it.”

The same Republican also objected to a resolution from Democratic Senator Dick Durbin, who asked for unanimous consent on a resolution condemning the kidnapping of Ukrainian children by Russia.

Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen then introduced a resolution stating that Russia had committed war crimes in Ukraine. That resolution was objected to by Republican Senator Roger Wicker.

Wicker then also objected to a resolution affirming Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty introduced by Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal. Wicker’s objection was breifly interrupted by the ringing of his mobile phone.

Democratic Senator Michael Bennet was next on the floor, loudly complaining about the US cutting off intelligence sharing with Ukraine. “Ronald Reagan is turning over in his grave,” Bennet said, over a US national security strategy apparently concocted on social media.

He then yielded the floor and was followed by Democratic Senator Peter Welch, who asked: “Which side are we on?” He introduced a resolution that the US remains committed to the principle that no nation should use force to violate the territorial integrity of another country. Republican Senator John Barrasso objected.

Senate Democrats condemn Russia over Ukraine war and dare Republicans to object – as it happened

Democrats introduce resolutions on Senate floor, as Trump veterans affairs chief defends plans to cut 80,000 staff

www.theguardian.com

That is a good question to be honest. "Which side are we on". For all that Trump says it is pretty obvious that he is not neutral in this war.

 

[LovesPeace2]

It was reported today that the US told the UK they must NOT share intelligence with Ukraine! US and UK will have shared intelligence.

"Donald Trump bans Uk from sharing intelligence with Ukraine"

Donald Trump bans Britain from sharing US intelligence with Ukraine

DONALD TRUMP has banned Britain from sharing intelligence from the United States with Ukraine, according to reports ...

www.thenational.scot

 

[Stella123]

Just a reminder that Ukraine voluntarily gave up a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons, as part of the Budapest Memorandum in 1994. The signatories to the memorandum were Russia, Uk, US and Ukraine and the US, Russia and Uk provided security commitments to Ukraine as part of this treaty.

I saw a quote today from an army person in Ukraine (I can't find it now), that both Russia and the US had breached this Budapest agreement. Saying one (Russia) invaded them and the other (US) has ceased to protect them.

Both Russia and the United States are in breach of the Budapest agreement. The Uk isn't. JMO MOO

"What Was Promised?

In the memorandum’s text, the guarantors reaffirmed the following legal and political commitments already existing elsewhere.

First, they reaffirmed their commitments under the 1975 Helsinki Final Act, which is widely considered a political instrument. Namely, they agreed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” (emphasis added) as well as “to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.”

Aside from Russia breaching it by invading Ukraine, the United States is breaching everything stated above. The US is not respecting the existing borders of Ukraine (of that time) and it seems is seeking to use economic coercion to secure advantages. Witholding intelligence and more, and seeking an unfair mineral rights deal. Which arguably could be called "coercion". JMO MOO

Constructive Ambiguity of the Budapest Memorandum at 28: Making Sense of the Controversial Agreement

The 1994 Budapest Memorandum was purposefully designed to be ambiguous to allow its signatories to achieve significant goals. It is an important tool in the discourse on the current war waged by Russia in violation of the memorandum.

www.lawfaremedia.org

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

IMO it seems a reminder is needed of Alexei Navalny. And more needs to be stated publicly about the nature of his life, imprisonment, and death. And those that may have been responsible.

This Associated Press online March 1, 2024 article by Emma Burrows and Dasha Litvinova entitled ‘Protests, poisoning and prison: The life and death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny’ has some information on him:

Protests, poisoning and prison: The life and death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny

Alexei Navalny, Russia’s top opposition leader and President Vladimir Putin’s fiercest foe, has died in prison.

apnews.com

It is often stated, that those that do not remember the (or their) past are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana said it best “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

My paternal grandfather was in USN in WWI and also worked stateside USN in WWII at Great Lakes Training Center. It saddens me deeply to wonder what he would think of developments these past weeks and months. My late uncle told me some years ago of some of the concerns he had post WWI. SMH. MOO

 

[UK Girl]

IMO it seems a reminder is needed of Alexei Navalny. And more needs to be stated publicly about the nature of his life, imprisonment, and death. And those that may have been responsible.

This Associated Press online March 1, 2024 article by Emma Burows and Dasha Litvinova entitled ‘Protests, poisoning and prison: The life and death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny’ has some information on him:

Protests, poisoning and prison: The life and death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny

Alexei Navalny, Russia’s top opposition leader and President Vladimir Putin’s fiercest foe, has died in prison.

apnews.com

It is often stated, that those that do not remember the (or their) past are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana said it best “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

My paternal grandfather was in USN in WWI and also worked stateside USN in WWII at Great Lakes Training Center. It saddens me deeply to wonder what he would think of developments these past weeks and months. My late uncle told me some years ago of some of the concerns he had post WWI. SMH. MOO

Navalny was pretty much a hero IMO

 

[keek]

IMO it seems a reminder is needed of Alexei Navalny. And more needs to be stated publicly about the nature of his life, imprisonment, and death. And those that may have been responsible.

This Associated Press online March 1, 2024 article by Emma Burows and Dasha Litvinova entitled ‘Protests, poisoning and prison: The life and death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny’ has some information on him:

Protests, poisoning and prison: The life and death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny

Alexei Navalny, Russia’s top opposition leader and President Vladimir Putin’s fiercest foe, has died in prison.

apnews.com

It is often stated, that those that do not remember the (or their) past are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana said it best “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

My paternal grandfather was in USN in WWI and also worked stateside USN in WWII at Great Lakes Training Center. It saddens me deeply to wonder what he would think of developments these past weeks and months. My late uncle told me some years ago of some of the concerns he had post WWI. SMH. MOO

Thank you much for this. Never forget. Us, never forget or learn about him, those wondering whooo this is. t is right along those lines of threatening freedoms for us, the people.