Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #13

[sunflowermomma]

My bet is that it would be nearly impossible to "fact check" either Trump or the European leaders. In the end, the value of the aid can be spun many different ways for many different reasons:

How does one value older equipment (purchase as new cost, or current value as used, or as a spun "replacement value")? Were the purchase costs of new gear inflated to begin with? etc. etc.

It's not difficult to fact check - there is an entire field of accounting devoted to this. Fixed asset accounting. Depreciation models are used to value equipment over time. Equipment cost is not arbitrary, it's systemically tracked on the balance sheet using standardized depreciation rates.


IMO

 

[LibraStarr]

Zelenksy to Francis: "Thanks, But No Thanks" - Inside The Vatican

After the Pope’s allusions to possible Vatican efforts toward peace and much subsequent speculation, Pope Francis met on Saturday, May 13 — the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition in 1917 – with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. He ended the meeting without achieving what he sought...

insidethevatican.com

I am not familiar with that source but, IMO, the Pope’s offer was a proposal for peace talks that, while well-intentioned, didn’t align with Ukraine’s fundamental security concerns. The suggestion involved potential compromises that would require Ukraine to give up territory or make concessions that would effectively legitimize Russia’s occupation of Ukrainian land. Zelenskyy and his government have been clear: any peace deal must prioritize Ukraine’s territorial integrity and security, something this offer failed to do.

 

[JennieM]

No, I am only suggesting that people need to read the past attempts at ending the war with a peace agreement. I don't side with either, but it's important to read how many attempts there have been, and the people that have tried. Zelensky even rejected the Pope's attempt at peace. JMO MOO

Reinforcing the importance of security guarantees

 

[keek]

Zelenksy to Francis: "Thanks, But No Thanks" - Inside The Vatican

After the Pope’s allusions to possible Vatican efforts toward peace and much subsequent speculation, Pope Francis met on Saturday, May 13 — the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition in 1917 – with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. He ended the meeting without achieving what he sought...

insidethevatican.com

“You can’t have mediation with Putin,” Zelensky emphasized. “We know the consequences… it’s not a question of the Vatican, or America, or Latin America, or China, or any country in the world. Putin only kills, you can’t have a mediation with him.”

The Ukrainian leader implied that if the Vatican wants to do something constructive, it should get on board with Ukraine’s own peace plan.

“For me, it was an honor to meet His Holiness,” Zelensky said.

 

[keek]

“You can’t have mediation with Putin,” Zelensky emphasized. “We know the consequences… it’s not a question of the Vatican, or America, or Latin America, or China, or any country in the world. Putin only kills, you can’t have a mediation with him.”

The Ukrainian leader implied that if the Vatican wants to do something constructive, it should get on board with Ukraine’s own peace plan.

“For me, it was an honor to meet His Holiness,” Zelensky said.

So, not so simple as thanks but no thanks. Pretty biased headline on the Vatican paper.

 

[JennieM]

Zelenksy to Francis: "Thanks, But No Thanks" - Inside The Vatican

After the Pope’s allusions to possible Vatican efforts toward peace and much subsequent speculation, Pope Francis met on Saturday, May 13 — the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition in 1917 – with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. He ended the meeting without achieving what he sought...

insidethevatican.com

From your article:

To be clear, it’s not as if Russia has gushed with enthusiasm over the idea of Pope Francis and the Vatican as a go-between, either. Spokespersons for Putin have restricted themselves to saying they know nothing of any Vatican peace effort, leaving hanging the broader question of whether they’d be open to such an initiative.

 

[Stella123]

Zelenksy to Francis: "Thanks, But No Thanks" - Inside The Vatican

After the Pope’s allusions to possible Vatican efforts toward peace and much subsequent speculation, Pope Francis met on Saturday, May 13 — the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition in 1917 – with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. He ended the meeting without achieving what he sought...

insidethevatican.com

It seems neither side were interested, and I don't think Putin would have much respect for a Pope either.

"
To be clear, it’s not as if Russia has gushed with enthusiasm over the idea of Pope Francis and the Vatican as a go-between, either. Spokespersons for Putin have restricted themselves to saying they know nothing of any Vatican peace effort, leaving hanging the broader question of whether they’d be open to such an initiative.

In other words, like Benedict XV’s peace plan in 1917, Francis’ efforts to provide an exit strategy from the war in Ukraine seem dead on arrival."

I do remember the early attempts at negotiations when the war started. It is very recent history. I think Putin broke agreed ceasefires a number of times.

 

[Stella123]

From your article:

To be clear, it’s not as if Russia has gushed with enthusiasm over the idea of Pope Francis and the Vatican as a go-between, either. Spokespersons for Putin have restricted themselves to saying they know nothing of any Vatican peace effort, leaving hanging the broader question of whether they’d be open to such an initiative.

Sorry, just posted the same thing!

 

[Stunned]

Hopefully Trump's plan is to just leave Ukraine stewing for a couple of days, and then "unpause" the intelligence and relief for Ukraine.

IMO #47 should just step away and let the diplomats who know how to diplomat take care of the peace talks with Russia and Ukraine. IMO

 

[Stella123]

What is #47 please?

 

[Stunned]

What is #47 please?

The US president.

 

[JennieM]

Political theatre.
In the midst of peace talks and negotiations, inappropriate.

They talk more sense than your president. Theatre is inviting a war president to ambush him in front of cameras and cut off his military aid and intelligence, siding with a dictator, and putting an ally’s army at risk. That is inappropriate.

 

[Arkay]

“You can’t have mediation with Putin,” Zelensky emphasized. “We know the consequences… it’s not a question of the Vatican, or America, or Latin America, or China, or any country in the world. Putin only kills, you can’t have a mediation with him.”

The Ukrainian leader implied that if the Vatican wants to do something constructive, it should get on board with Ukraine’s own peace plan.

“For me, it was an honor to meet His Holiness,” Zelensky said.

I think this was gracious of Zelenskyy, and he is telling the Pope the real truth.

Yes, the Pope is a world figure, but he’s not the figurehead of the church in either Ukraine or Russia. Ukraine is Eastern Orthodox and is headed by the Patriarch of Constantinople, while Russian Orthodox is headed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.

I agree that if the Roman Catholic Pope, when he was healthier, had really studied the situation he may have approached this differently.

I believe every one of us here wishes desperately for peace and for the war to end immediately. But Putin is not looking for peace for the sake of peace. He is looking to conquer another country.

It feels medieval.

All just my opinion.

 

[LovesPeace2]

What ever happened with this . It's kinda funny Putin and Trump have a relationship now jmoo

Putin ally calls for Alaska's return to Russia

Vladimir Solovyov called for the U.S. state's return to Russia after Russian military aircrafts recently entered international airspace close to Alaska.

www.newsweek.com

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Zelenksy to Francis: "Thanks, But No Thanks" - Inside The Vatican

After the Pope’s allusions to possible Vatican efforts toward peace and much subsequent speculation, Pope Francis met on Saturday, May 13 — the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition in 1917 – with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. He ended the meeting without achieving what he sought...

insidethevatican.com

Wow! I guess I’m not surprised. Sounds like he wanted the Pope to condemn Putin. He doesn’t want peace, on any terms but his own. imo
From the link -
A leader goes to the Pope to speak, but also to listen.

To present his vision, and at the same time to welcome the other’s perspective, which has a profound ethical-political authority, an authority that, yes, is without any military divisions or economic power, but which is distinguished by centuries of memory.

Now, with a cool head, the summit in the past, it becomes clear that the Ukrainian president had no desire to listen to Pope Francis.

[…]

His [Zelensky’s] goal was to push Bergoglio into a corner, sabotage any hypothesis of Vatican mediation, force him [Pope Francis] to consider the pressing — and propagandistic — requests of the Ukrainian leader: (1) Join the condemnation of Putin as a criminal, (2) Press for him to accept as the only outcome the so-called “Zelensky plan,” which plan is not a peace plan but a list of conditions that a Russia on its knees should be forced to accept, because the blackmail of sanctions would continue even after the retreat of the Russian army.

That’s why the notebook was placed on the desk with the points clearly visible.

 

[UK Girl]

I think this was gracious of Zelenskyy, and he is telling the Pope the real truth.

Yes, the Pope is a world figure, but he’s not the figurehead of the church in either Ukraine or Russia. Ukraine is Eastern Orthodox and is headed by the Patriarch of Constantinople, while Russian Orthodox is headed by the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.

I agree that if the Roman Catholic Pope, when he was healthier, had really studied the situation he may have approached this differently.

I believe every one of us here wishes desperately for peace and for the war to end immediately. But Putin is not looking for peace for the sake of peace. He is looking to conquer another country.

It feels medieval.

All just my opinion.

Potentially more than one country but that's ok as there is a beautiful ocean between America and the problem.

 

[LibraStarr]

They talk more sense than your president. Theatre is inviting a war president to ambush him in front of cameras and cut off his military aid and intelligence, siding with a dictator, and putting an ally’s army at risk. That is inappropriate.

I completely agree—it’s nothing short of a narcissistic meltdown on a global scale. Turning serious international security issues into “political theatre” is wholly inappropriate.

IMO

 

[PommyMommy]

A lot of international work today – I spoke with the Prime Ministers of the Netherlands @MinPres, Portugal
@LMontenegropm, and Slovenia, as well as with the Chancellor of Germany @Bundeskanzler. Thank you for all the support.

We are preparing for the EU summit, which will take place tomorrow in Brussels. Everyone can see how quickly diplomatic events are unfolding. Today, the Ukrainian and American teams began working on an upcoming meeting. Andriy Yermak and Mike Waltz have spoken, and there’s positive movement. We hope to see some results next week.

We also need to resume movement in the European direction, particularly regarding our Eurointegration – the clusters in the accession negotiation process. We are counting on the support of our partners.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897344676312617071

 

[PommyMommy]

I had a meaningful conversation with Bulgarian Prime Minister Rosen Zhelyazkov and expressed gratitude for Bulgaria’s unwavering support for Ukraine. We deeply appreciate the solidarity of the Bulgarian people.

We discussed ways to achieve a just and lasting peace for Ukraine. A key component of this is effective security guarantees, which will only work if they are shared and upheld by all our partners.

I also briefed him on my recent discussions with the leaders of partner countries. I am grateful for Bulgaria’s willingness to work together to bring closer the day when a just and lasting peace is established in Ukraine. This unity is exactly what we need right now.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897414348684890518

I am grateful to @EmmanuelMacron for his clear vision and our joint efforts to achieve peace. Peace must be real, not just a word—it cannot mean Ukraine’s capitulation or collapse. It must be just, reliable, and lasting, and this can only be achieved through strong and long-term security guarantees — for Ukraine, Europe, and the entire world.

We deeply appreciate the leadership and efforts of all those supporting Ukraine and strengthening Europe’s defense capabilities. Looking forward to working jointly on the steps toward peace in the upcoming days.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897417806758732153

 

[acutename]

I believe it dangerous to totally ignore the Russian point of view, TRUMP is clearly aware of this, and here are a just few reads that shed a wee bit of light on the matter.

A very nice little vid of NATO expansion....

MSN

This is an interesting read, though appears a few years old....

Did NATO Expansion Really Cause Putin’s Invasion?

A seasoned diplomat considers this question in light of his own experience.

afsa.org

A revealing history....

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

View attachment 568316

Putin wants the "old" Soviet Union back and as the west does not like him creeping closer, he does not like a free-er society next door BUT like the parable about the two competing mothers arguing over a baby, he is tearing the limbs off Ukraine. IMO. Can you imagine Britain coming back to the US and saying: "You know- we want the colonies back. Still some good sea food in Maryland and we should have never let them stray."