Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #5

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  • #521
Alot, imo. When countries join NATO it commits to tne fees in return for protection. Many are not living up to the agreement but expect protection from NATO. So.....the US is picking up the bill, paying 18% of the cost of NATO.

The fees are equitable to each countrys GNP. Basically if I make $1.00, I pay 2 cents to NATO. Some pay less than a half percentage. Germany is a good example. A very profitable country. Deals the benefits of a US state of tbe air airfield and hospital and states they might can pay 2% by 2030.

Yes, Poland's comments do affect NATO and especially their most lucrative partner the US.

Moo....yea I'm really upset over the plane issue

Sorry, I can't get this to un-bold.


Five Reasons Why NATO Nations Don't Always Pay Their Fair Share

Why do some NATO countries spend less of a percentage of GDP on defense than others?


In short, they can’t afford it.

Michael Corgan, an associate professor of international relations at Boston University’s Frederick S. Pardee School of Global Studies, argues that health and retirement benefits promised to Europe’s aging population, combined with high taxes, would make it very difficult for such countries to spend much more on defense without enacting policies that would be difficult for their citizens to swallow.

“Virtually no democratically elected government could survive either situation,” Corgan told NBC News.
 
  • #522
Do you live in a NATO country? Is it participating in this conflict?

Whats clear today is the US did not agree to "this deal" with Poland. Why would the US trade our F series fighter jets for broken down planes left from a previous Russian conflict? Why did Poland make a public statement, even if a deal was in the works? Why did they feel they had to make a snide (mo) comment? ....Russia can talk to Washington about the planes...or something to that affect. This whole plane story was generated out of Poland, to obtain two Patriot Missile Systems. Moo....

Russia-Ukraine war: US rejects Polish plan to offer jets to Ukraine; Russia accused of breaking Mariupol ceasefire – live | World news | The Guardian
34m ago 21:42

The US Government may have opposed a Polish plan to ship jet fighters to Ukraine but it will be sending two Patriot anti-missile batteries stationed in Europe to Poland.

What is clear is that the US is part of NATO as is the country I live in - Canada.

I have a son in the Army - he's already deployed overseas.

I also happen to serve in that Army, suffice it to say I have actual 'skin' in this game. I also happen to have served overseas with my NATO partner in spirit of our requirement for mutual cooperation and defence in Syria and in Afghanistan (twice) post 911 as the USofA requested of her NATO partners.

The whole plane story generated out of Ukraine when they requested assistance in obtaining Russian jets (because those are the types of jets Ukrainian pilots are trained to fly). When the Ukrainian request came in to the USofA, the USofA offered up Polish jets and then brokered a deal to have the Poles provide Ukraine with MiGs and then the US would backfill Poland with US jets. Not what Poland would have expected from Her NATO partner either. ;)

The Russians announced that the act of donating jets to Ukraine would be seen as an act of war. Therefore, the Polish then asked the US to hand them over to Ukraine ... as a guarantee that when the Russians actually DO treat this as an act of war, that NATO, including the USofA, actually will come to Poland's defence.

Either way the donation occurs, if seen as an act of war and Poland attacked, would require NATO, including the USofA, to engage. The USofA offered up the jets from Poland, so ergo the snide comment now that the USofA wants to seem to be 'hands off". I'm thinking that Poland may feel the USofA also tossed their nation under the bus wheels ... with obvious wavering on whether or not they'd actually get involved in war's dirty business of boots on the ground warfare and defence should it be required. Can't blame Poland for wanting to ensure all of it's partners are actually willing to back them up should the proverbial el toro poo poo hit the fan over these jets.
 
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  • #523
...
NATO can NOT establish a no fly zone over Ukraine with out violating its charter. Ukraine is not a NATO country. NATO is not the world policing agency.
...

All Moo...

RSBM

All true, except you can guarantee that NATO doesn't want it's eastern flank (Ukraine) to be Russian territory any more than Russia wants it's Western flank (Ukraine) to be NATO/waveringly neutral territory.
 
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  • #524
I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding with fighter jets. I was curious to listen to Polish side because they did what they did for a reason and USA is not the only one who can be right..
According to news resources from Poland USA was pressuring Poland to give away jets and Poland from the beginning said clear no and then agreed but said if you want okay but you do that.

snipped from news using google translation


In Washington, there is pressure on the administration to get things done. They wanted to do this by shifting the decision to us. And yet this is something that the Russians can respond to, and something that comes at a cost. (...) I can see the fluctuations in this matter - continued the PO politician. - I hope that it can be agreed alliedly. Poland should not be left alone with this matter, he concluded.”

I don’t think its fair to jump on Poland like that they are doing so much for refugees and are so close to Russian border in case of aggression. There is two side of the story always..

Zamieszanie wokół myśliwców MiG-29 dla Ukrainy. Radosław Sikorski komentuje

[URL]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-07/u-s-lawmakers-put-pressure-on-biden-to-help-with-transfer-of-european-aircraft-to-ukraine%3Fcontext%3Damp
[/URL]

 
  • #525
  • #526
I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding with fighter jets. I was curious to listen to Polish side because they did what they did for a reason and USA is not the only one who can be right..
According to news resources from Poland USA was pressuring Poland to give away jets and Poland from the beginning said clear no and then agreed but said if you want okay but you do that.

snipped from news using google translation


In Washington, there is pressure on the administration to get things done. They wanted to do this by shifting the decision to us. And yet this is something that the Russians can respond to, and something that comes at a cost. (...) I can see the fluctuations in this matter - continued the PO politician. - I hope that it can be agreed alliedly. Poland should not be left alone with this matter, he concluded.”

I don’t think its fair to jump on Poland like that they are doing so much for refugees and are so close to Russian border in case of aggression. There is two side of the story always..

Zamieszanie wokół myśliwców MiG-29 dla Ukrainy. Radosław Sikorski komentuje

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-07/u-s-lawmakers-put-pressure-on-biden-to-help-with-transfer-of-european-aircraft-to-ukraine?context=amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wiadom...aw-sikorski-komentuje-6745339168626305v?amp=1

Yep. Indeed it was the USofA that offered Ukraine Polish jets.
 
  • #527
It's sometimes in the math too as all NATO countries do not standardize the formula they use to ascertain the percentage of GDP their nation spends of "defence".

For example, some nations include the costs they spend for their border security, some do not. Some include direct military and defence spending only while others include the costs of policing etc. Some use only the budget allocated to their military for the year - whether it's totally spent or not and regardless if they spend over it or not.

What NATO actually has to do is standardize the formula to be used by all it's partner nations ... then have at 'er. If, for example, national policing costs or border patrolling were NOT included (because some NATO nations include those costs in their % and some do not) towards the determination of GDP spending on defence, the GDP percentages would move significantly for some.

In a lot of cases, it really is like comparing apples to oranges because there is not standardized formula.

Oh, and most NATO and European nations have increased defence spending since 2014 because ... well ... Crimea. That's when the bear raised his ugly head. Yet again.
Maybe these countries need to reevaluate there defence budgets. Seems protecting the country would be the most precious spending. Moo

I'm not referring to the national defence budget of each country, NATO is a standardized fee, per their charter.

I'm referring the FEE, equalize by the GNP of each nation. Ex...If a country makes 1.00 they are required to give 2% or .02to NATO FEES to support arms purchases, training and administrative cost.

NATO is a PRIVATE organization/club. Each country must apply to the terms and conditions to JOIN. It's not to protect all countries just its members.

NATO is on thin ice and has been warned by Putin, not to enter this war or sufferer nuclear consequences.

The US is in this to protect NATO borders/countries.
We can NOT enter a war.

Is your country in NATO?

I feel for Ukraine, cry for ther citizens, pray for them daily. We the US are giving alot, pushing the limit.

All my opinion.



MOO...
 
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  • #528
Yep. Indeed it was the USofA that offered Ukraine Polish jets.

Either of you up to making a timeline? I'm not buying it.
 
  • #529
  • #530
Either of you up to making a timeline? I'm not buying it.

For me, it will have to wait until tonight and I get home from work (where we are midst training 14 Polish military who came in last week). Busy times.
 
  • #531
  • #532
Yep. Indeed it was the USofA that offered Ukraine Polish jets.

They were not ours to offer, this is a deal deal Poland came up with. We clearly did NOT agree to the deal!!!!!

The US can't offer them, unless US Congress approves/declared war.

Ukraine renews effort to free civilians as isolated Russia promises cease-fires

The Defense Department rejected what it said was an unexpected offer by Poland to have the U.S. take custody of Soviet-era fighter jets that would likely then be transferred to Ukraine.

U.S. officials said they were blindsided by Poland’s announcement and did not believe the proposal was "tenable." It differed from a previous proposal to have Warsaw deliver the MiG-29 jets to Kyiv directly.

The U.S. has said it would support Poland’s or another NATO member’s sending jets to Ukraine but has given no indication it would act as an intermediary, with countries eager to avoid becoming too closely embroiled in the conflict.
 
  • #533
From whenever the power connection to Chernobyl was severed the “Reserve diesel generators have a 48-hour capacity to power.." and that's it folks, it starts getting hot enough to trigger another meltdown.

Chernobyl staff are not in great physical nor mental shape with no rotation of fresh minds and bodies. They've also been reportedly tortured into making a video (God knows of what) ?

Is it going to take power being cut/damaged to the Zaporizhzhia before...

Ok...do you think NATO should be in it now?
 
  • #534
@Vern, thank you for your service.
 
  • #535
Bringing over a few posts from the media thread that I didn't get to post here last night...sorry for late news. :oops:

MAR 8, 2022
Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, March 8 | Institute for the Study of War (understandingwar.org)
March 8, 3:00 PM EST

Russian forces continued concentrating in the eastern, northwestern, and western outskirts of Kyiv for an assault on the capital in the coming 24-96 hours. The reported appearance of forces belonging to Chechen leader Ramazan Kadyrov, Russia’s Rosgvardia internal security formations, and the Liga (former Wagner) Private Military Company in the western outskirts of Kyiv may indicate that the Russian military is struggling to assemble sufficient conventional combat power to launch its assault on the capital. Russian forces near Kyiv made limited gains and prepared for limited drives to continue their attempted encirclement to the west.

Ukrainian forces have continued to challenge the lengthy Russian ground lines of communication leading from near Sumy to eastern Kyiv. Russian forces near Kharkiv have been steadily diverting to secure and extend those lines over the past few days, as we have reported. The Ukrainian General Staff reported on March 8 that Russian troops currently near Chernihiv appear to be moving east. We assess that those forces may seek to link up with troops coming from near Sumy to help them consolidate and protect their extended lines in support of the planned offensive against Kyiv.

[...]

DraftUkraineCoTMarch8%2C2022.png


Russian forces are engaged in four primary efforts at this time:

  • Main effort—Kyiv (comprised of three subordinate supporting efforts);
  • Supporting effort 1—Kharkiv;
    • Supporting effort 1a—Luhansk Oblast;
    • Supporting effort 2—Mariupol; and
    • Supporting effort 3—Kherson and advances westward.
[...]

Immediate items to watch

  • Russian forces may launch an attempt to encircle Kyiv from east and west and/or to seize the city center itself within the next 24-96 hours;
  • Russian troops may drive on Zaporizhya city itself within the next 48-72 hours, likely attempting to block it from the east and set conditions for subsequent operations after Russian forces besieging Mariupol take that city;
  • Russian forces may attempt amphibious landings anywhere along the Black Sea Coast between Odesa and the mouth of the Southern Bug in the next 24-48 hours.
 
  • #536
MAR 8, 2022
Why Establishing a No-Fly Zone Over Ukraine Would Be Very Dangerous and Costly (msn.com)
[...]

Since Feb. 28, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has pleaded with the U.S. and its allies for a no-fly zone. On Sunday he reported that the city of Vinnytsia was attacked by eight missiles from Russian troops. “We repeat every day: ‘Close the sky over Ukraine!’” the Ukrainian leader said. “Close it for all Russian missiles, Russian combat aircraft, for all these terrorists. Make a humanitarian air zone—without rockets, without air bombs.”

[...]

... A no-fly zone would put U.S. and other NATO pilots in a position of shooting down Russian planes and helicopters, and likely firing on ground forces. Experts warn such action risks escalating the conflict dramatically—into cataclysmic nuclear war, at worst. The Pentagon has repeatedly dismissed calls for establishing a no-fly zone, citing President Joe Biden’s insistence that no combat forces will be sent to Ukraine.

[...]

The U.S. and its allies have been bolstering Ukraine’s military firepower to aid in the fight against Russia. A senior U.S. official reported to CNN that U.S. and NATO member-states deployed 17,000 anti-tank missiles and 2,000 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine. ...

However, many military analysts fear that Ukraine’s tough resistance will eventually crumble under the might of Russia’s much larger military—which is among the most formidable in the world. Russia has been doubling down on military modernization since 2008. The latest data from the 2022 Military Balance Report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, reports that Moscow has more than 900,000 troops, while Kyiv has 196,000 active military personnel. IISS indicates that the Russia air force has some 1,172 combat-capable aircraft, while Ukraine has just 172.

... Leaders in Ukraine have pleaded for the U.S. or allies to impose a no-fly zone in Ukraine to protect civilians from Russian airstrikes.

[...]

What would it take to establish a no-fly zone in Ukraine?

Top of the line American fighter jets, such as the F-22 Raptor, the F-35 Lightning II, and F-15 Eagle, would need to be sent into the warzone all day and night, along with aerial refueling planes. Ground crews would have to be stationed nearby. Electronic attack aircraft would presumably be sent in as well to disrupt and jam Russian radars to avoid detection and targeting.

Benard also says that no-fly zones only work if the militaries of the U.S. and NATO allies are willing to aggressively enforce them. “This means NATO would need to be ready to shoot down Russian planes that violate the no-fly zone,” he said.

That’s a prospect that NATO and the Soviet Union spent decades trying to avoid. While Russia may have a smaller military than its communist predecessor, it still controls the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

Additionally, suppressing Russian air power would require massive numbers of planes and SAM missiles. While the U.S. Air Force is the largest in the world, with more than 2,200 fighters, bombers, and attack aircraft, European air forces are considerably smaller. The U.K.’s Royal Air Force has 234 combat-capable aircraft, while the air force of Poland, a NATO member that borders Ukraine, has 94.

[...]
 
  • #537
MAR 8, 2022
Russia-Ukraine war: Moscow promises humanitarian corridors; US to send Patriot missiles to Poland – live | World news | The Guardian
5m ago 01:02

The New York Times will have no reporters on the ground in Russia for the first time in a century after the news organisation joined those pulling out of the country.

Russian authorities made reporting from the country impossible when it recently criminalised the act of describing Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as a “war” with those who commit the offence facing up to 15 years in prison.

As a result Russian media outlets have been forced to close, while global news organisations have pulled out their teams owing to the risk of arrest.

Former NYT Moscow bureau chief, Neil MacFarquhar, said on social media Russia has always been considered a “important country, an important story” but the recent turn. had “just killed off that long tradition”.

“We’ve had reporters there continuously since 1921, with one or two short interruptions due to visa hiccoughs. Not Stalin, not the Cold War, nothing drove us out,” MacFarquhar said.

[...]
 
  • #538
Harris heads to Poland amid turbulence over jets for Ukraine

Harris heads to Poland amid turbulence over jets for Ukraine

“This fighter jet situation is a messy deal, and Harris will have to go there and smooth things out,” said Daniel Fried, who served as U.S. ambassador to Poland for President Bill Clinton and was a senior adviser in the George W. Bush and Barack Obama administrations. “There’s plenty of discussion on the way ahead that needs to be had with the Poles that is better to have in an in-person conversation.”

“I’ve made it clear that the United States will share in the responsibility of caring for the refugees so the costs do not fall entirely on the European countries bordering Ukraine,” Biden said. He had been looking to Congress to pass a $14 billion aid package to assist Ukraine and its eastern European allies.

Hours after Biden spoke, Poland blindsided the White House with its proposal.

Victoria Nuland, undersecretary of state for political affairs, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that she saw the Polish government’s announcement as she was driving to Capitol Hill to testify.

Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn. called it “curious” for Poland to announce its plan “without alerting us first.”
 
  • #539
From whenever the power connection to Chernobyl was severed the “Reserve diesel generators have a 48-hour capacity to power.." and that's it folks, it starts getting hot enough to trigger another meltdown.

Chernobyl staff are not in great physical nor mental shape with no rotation of fresh minds and bodies. They've also been reportedly tortured into making a video (God knows of what) ?

Is it going to take power being cut/damaged to the Zaporizhzhia before...

Ok...do you think NATO should be in it now?

Where are the hot rods coming from? The plant has been closed 20 years.

No on the NATO question.
 
  • #540
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