Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #5

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  • #601
Totally crazy....governments (at least the Dutch so far) keep on referring to it as an invasion.
If its classified as a war, many would op out. Many Constitutions, like the US Constitution require a ruling body approval to enter a war.

That's why NATO, including the US protects from the sidelines .
Moo
 
  • #602
I don't do You tube, just check the Dept of Defense website and MSM no press release or public statement I can:)see.

Who is the video with? Is it Bliken speaking ? Surprise no US news NBC, CNN or FOX are reporting.

Did find this from CNN. US still says NO to planes.

Kamala Harris' trip to Poland and Romania turns fraught after US rejects Polish plan to get jets to Ukraine - CNNPolitics

Vice President Kamala Harris is jetting to Europe Wednesday for a trip that became more complicated after one of her hosts – Poland – caught the United States by surprise with a proposal to provide its Soviet-era fighter jets to Ukraine.

What seemed like a straightforward mission turned more fraught when the Polish foreign ministry announced it was prepared to deploy the jets to the US Air Force’s Ramstein Air Base in Germany, which in theory could then be provided to Ukraine. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has pleaded for more aircraft amid the Russian invasion. But that offer had not been discussed with the US before Poland announced it publicly, and Polish officials did not bring it up with Secretary of State Antony Blinken when he was recently in Poland, either.

It appeared designed to avoid the appearance of Poland directly arming Ukraine in its battle against Russia, but created a conundrum for the United States, which is also intent on avoiding direct conflict with Moscow.

It seems to me that when U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken went on Face the Nation on Sunday, March 6th and was interviewed about his recent trip to Poland, that when he was asked about the whole discussion of whether or not Poland would be giving their old mig-29 fighter jets to Ukraine and how this would happen, Blinken said that as far as the U.S. is concerned, Poland has the "green light" to give these older jets to Ukraine, and in order to "backfill," the U.S. offered Poland some new fighter jets , but that this would take time, because it would have to go through Congress and the contract vetting process, etc.

Then I think that Poland felt "on the spot" since this interview was seen and discussed world wide, and so they made their own public statement about how they would handle the mig-29 jets so they could end up in Ukraine. This blind-sided the U.S. government, but the U.S. government had also blind-sided Poland by saying that they had the "green light" to move forward with the plan to supply these planes to Ukraine.

During the days and week prior to this development I was following this issue closely in the news, and could see that Poland was clearly uncomfortable about being pushed by NATO to get these planes to Ukraine, as they clearly didn't want to end up at war with Russia for this transaction. So I think Blinken got ahead of himself publicly with the narrative, and for Poland, these were just discussions.

It definitely is a case of passing the "hot potato" but I agree that it should never have been in the U.S.'s hands, or Poland's.

If other countries want to send these older fighter jets to Ukraine, it's up to them, but I hope that the U.S. stays out of it.
 
  • #603
It's a disgrace, stripping people from their rights to speak out, suppressing and scaring people off. But this was to be expected from a narcissistic dictator.

I saw that picture too....yes, great. It's a petty I can't find it now.

Is this the one?

FMsRTD8XwAEvIn4


Hananya Naftali

Meanwhile in Moscow: A Russian woman wearing the colors of the Ukrainian flag in the underground metro.

There are so many pictures of bravery: people climbing on tanks, standing in the streets knowing they can be shot or run over, imaginative uses for everyday objects that can be weaponized, but it's these quiet acts of bravery that get me every time.

This woman is old. She's probably witnessed first hand past acts of inhumanity. She has no gun or knife. She can't climb a tank or ascend a tv tower with a Ukrainian flag. But what she does have is guts. She knows she can be arrested, knocked down and dragged away but she does it anyway. She knows she could spend countless nights in prison without a charge or a trial. But she does it anyway. Respect.
 
  • #604
Blinken says NATO countries have "green light" to send fighter jets to Ukraine - YouTube
Mar 6, 2022 • Secretary of State Antony Blinken says the U.S. is considering replacing Polish fighter jets if the Polish government decides to send aircraft to Ukraine.
I watched the video. What he said was, NATO countries could give the jets to Ukraine. He was OK for them to donate, NOT the US. He never implied the US would give or pay for them.

He doesn't have that authority.
Moo
 
  • #605
If its classified as a war, many would op out. Many Constitutions, like the US Constitution require a ruling body approval to enter a war.

That's why NATO, including the US protects from the sidelines .
Moo

What is already been clear from the beginning...We (the NATO allies) don't want to intervene, just protecting the NATO members, bordering Ukraine. But at the same time we don't want people killed in an Non-NATO country invaded by an aggressive Russia.
 
  • #606
Under script of this video is

Secretary of State Antony Blinken says the U.S. is considering replacing Polish fighter jets if the Polish government decides to send aircraft to Ukraine.

Need to listen to what is said, not just headlines, tags. Please. He will need a higher authority to authorize this. I suspect one of our defense Congressional committees.
Respectfully MOO
 
  • #607
Need to listen to what is said, not just headlines, tags. Please. He will need a higher authority to authorize this. I suspect one of our defense Congressional committees.
Respectfully MOO

Yes, I hope so....I don't doubt that...He is not an individual just saying stuff and doing stuff on his own.....so what is this video worth?
 
  • #608
yea, trade junk for nice F fighters. Did you note the US response from the beginning....from above
Quote bolded bm
we do not believe that Poland's proposal is defensible, "Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said on Twitter.


We've said NO every way possible and the story still spins out of control.

We dont need or want to trade Russian junk for our nice F fighters, NATO has funds, they should broker a deal and leave the US out. This is something Poland concocked to a quite and face the US into tick g them our fighter planes. All my opinion.
I am feeling weary, providing links to provide links to debunk Poland's story.

Makes it harder for Biden to get the 10BILLION everyone counting on. The US citizens are paying for all this, we are taxed to fund this operation.

Moo
Here is more for this ongoing discussion:
Scholz: Sending Polish jets to Ukraine via US base in Germany 'certainly' not an option | DW | 09.03.2022

ETA:
MiG-29 machines fighter jets for Ukraine? Poland and USA cause confusion
MiG-29-Maschinen - Kampfflugzeuge für die Ukraine? Polen und USA sorgen für Verwirrung


@Simply Southern ,you can use Google translation for it.
FYI,I do understand Poland,they fought very hard in WW 2, and were treated like crap, afterwards.
Poland was known as European killing Fields,they suffered the most and they fought from day 1 till the end!

imo it is not fair how you reply to their concerns in this insane war ,at their border!
 
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  • #609
It seems to me that when U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken went on Face the Nation on Sunday, March 6th and was interviewed about his recent trip to Poland, that when he was asked about the whole discussion of whether or not Poland would be giving their old mig-29 fighter jets to Ukraine and how this would happen, Blinken said that as far as the U.S. is concerned, Poland has the "green light" to give these older jets to Ukraine, and in order to "backfill," the U.S. offered Poland some new fighter jets , but that this would take time, because it would have to go through Congress and the contract vetting process, etc.

Then I think that Poland felt "on the spot" since this interview was seen and discussed world wide, and so they made their own public statement about how they would handle the mig-29 jets so they could end up in Ukraine. This blind-sided the U.S. government, but the U.S. government had also blind-sided Poland by saying that they had the "green light" to move forward with the plan to supply these planes to Ukraine.

During the days and week prior to this development I was following this issue closely in the news, and could see that Poland was clearly uncomfortable about being pushed by NATO to get these planes to Ukraine, as they clearly didn't want to end up at war with Russia for this transaction. So I think Blinken got ahead of himself publicly with the narrative, and for Poland, these were just discussions.

It definitely is a case of passing the "hot potato" but I agree that it should never have been in the U.S.'s hands, or Poland's.

If other countries want to send these older fighter jets to Ukraine, it's up to them, but I hope that the U.S. stays out of it.
Thank you for the supporting link and proof Bliken doesn't have the authority to cut this deal.

I don't see this passing Congress. Putin's said, we send planes, its an act of war. Congress will NOT approve a war, unless Putin attacks us or maybe a NATO country.

We just got out of the Afghanistan conflict. Nope we in the US can't take on a war., not after COVOD, inflation increase, the oil mess and a congressional election. I hoping I'm right on this one. Well praying I'm right.

Moo...
 
  • #610
yea, trade junk for nice F fighters.
quote snipped by me

The present US fleet of F16s is 16 years old and is very similar to the MiG29.

March 24, 2005
The last F-16C,
the Block 50 CC-231 AF 01-7053, was delivered on March 18, 2005, and assigned to Shaw Air Force Base, South Carolina
Air Force receives last F-16 > Air Force > Article Display

January 21, 2021
U.S. Air Force officials are talking about ordering new Lockheed Martin F-16s two decades after signing the last production contract.
U.S. Air Force Talks New F-16 Orders In Latest Acquisition Shake-up | Aviation Week Network

May 28 2021
The U.S. Navy is preparing to receive F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter jets from the Air Force as it moves to rid its inventory of legacy F/A-18 Hornet models used in its Reserve fleets, according to its fiscal 2022 budget request.
Navy Will Get Air Force F-16 Fighter Jets to Fill Super Hornet Gap
 
  • #611
Yes, I hope so....I don't doubt that...He is not an individual just saying stuff and doing stuff on his own.....so what is this video worth?

I do think that Blinken misspoke when he went on national television and said that Poland has the "green light" to provide their mig-29 fighter jets to Ukraine. I think this set off a reaction in Poland to try to come up with a way to show their support for Ukraine but not be directly the nation that sent the planes into conflict with Russia. I think they probably agonized over their decision, as so many have said on this thread today, that Poland understands more than most what Ukraine is facing.

In any event, this is one of those foreign policy missteps that shouldn't have happened, but tensions are running high for all NATO countries. Each member has to deal with the issues in Ukraine, the world stage, and their constituents at home. The U.S. went off and did its own thing regarding the Russian oil embargo, facing strong pressure at home. This broke with the NATO as a block. But each member has its own issues to deal with as well, and the balancing of all creates great tension within their countries and also within the NATO organization.
 
  • #612
I do think that Blinken misspoke when he went on national television and said that Poland has the "green light" to provide their mig-29 fighter jets to Ukraine. I think this set off a reaction in Poland to try to come up with a way to show their support for Ukraine but not be directly the nation that sent the planes into conflict with Russia. I think they probably agonized over their decision, as so many have said on this thread today, that Poland understands more than most what Ukraine is facing.

In any event, this is one of those foreign policy missteps that shouldn't have happened, but tensions are running high for all NATO countries. Each member has to deal with the issues in Ukraine, the world stage, and their constituents at home. The U.S. went off and did its own thing regarding the Russian oil embargo, facing strong pressure at home. This broke with the NATO as a block. But each member has its own issues to deal with as well, and the balancing of all creates great tension within their countries and also within the NATO organization.

Are you saying Blinken spoke out of turn?
 
  • #613
Yes, I hope so....I don't doubt that...He is not an individual just saying stuff and doing stuff on his own.....so what is this video worth?
It's worth what he says and no more. He hopes to replace planes, if Poland decides to give away. But wr will not give them to Russia.

He knows he does have the authority, only Congress. Maybe he's hoping to attach to a bill for the 10 BILLION.

Its when we tend to not listen closely and understand exactly what is being said. Folks are reading, wishing more into the message being delivered by US officials.

No planes, no replacements, nothing from US on planes with out Congress passing a bill. And we all know that's unlikely, unless burdened in the defense bill.
Moo..
 
  • #614
It's worth what he says and no more. He hopes to replace planes, if Poland decides to give away. But wr will not give them to Russia.

He knows he does have the authority, only Congress. Maybe he's hoping to attach to a bill for the 10 BILLION.

Its when we tend to not listen closely and understand exactly what is being said. Folks are reading, wishing more into the message being delivered by US officials.

No planes, no replace me rd, nothing from US on planes with our Congress passing a bill. And we all know that's unlikely, unless burdened in the defense bill.
Moo..

Poland has an order in for new fighter jets from the US before all this, if that matters. JMO

Poland has been modernizing its aircraft fleet since 2006, when it first started flying F-16s, and in 2020 signed a $4.6 billion deal for 32 F-35s, the first of which will arrive in 2024, making those older Russian-made planes expendable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...-deal-fighter-jets-ukraine-00014424?_amp=true
 
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  • #615
Ukraine war: Russia 'reopens' evacuation routes out of besieged cities | Daily Mail Online

Putin’s new atrocity: Maternity hospital is bombed, with children buried under rubble in Mariupol, where '3,000 babies are without food or medicine', while Russian troops round up 400 Ukrainian 'hostages' in Kherson
  • Children's hospital in Mariupol, southern Ukraine, suffered a 'direct hit' by Russian rockets, Zelensky has said
  • Video shows one building completely destroyed and another badly damaged as wounded patients evacuate
  • Zelensky said children are trapped under rubble as he accused world leaders of being 'accomplice to terror'
  • Hours earlier, foreign minister had warned 3,000 babies in the city were without access to food or medicine
  • Ukrainian military says 400 people have also been arrested by Russian forces in the occupied city of Kherson
 
  • #616
MAR 7, 2022
‘Beyond understanding’: Odesa braced to see if Putin attacks city of such resonance for Russians | Ukraine | The Guardian
The tourist cafes are behind barricades. The grand opera house is surrounded by a wall of sandbags. Tank traps block the approaches to the legendary Potemkin steps. Nobody in Odesa can quite believe that Vladimir Putin would launch an assault on this city, a place bound to Russia by family, literary and cultural ties, a place of almost mythical resonance for many Russians.

But then, Putin’s armed forces have done lots of things in recent days that seemed unthinkable just two weeks ago.

“I don’t know what kind of a bastard, idiot or ******* you have to be to press the button for missiles to fall on Odesa,” said the city’s mayor, Gennady Trukhanov, in an interview at a building in the centre of the city where he has moved for security reasons. “It’s beyond the limits of my understanding.”

[,,,]

I think this article is probably one of the most important glimpses into the mindset of Putin. He's a murdering 🤬🤬🤬🤬 but he's also spiritually tied to the idea of a Russian civilization in the same way we don't question a Western civilization.

Putin Has a Grimly Absolute Vision of the ‘Russian World’
 
  • #617
It's worth what he says and no more. He hopes to replace planes, if Poland decides to give away. But wr will not give them to Russia.

He knows he does have the authority, only Congress. Maybe he's hoping to attach to a bill for the 10 BILLION.

Its when we tend to not listen closely and understand exactly what is being said. Folks are reading, wishing more into the message being delivered by US officials.

No planes, no replacements, nothing from US on planes with out Congress passing a bill. And we all know that's unlikely, unless burdened in the defense bill.
Moo..

Isn't that all in the word 'considering'?
 
  • #618
Are you saying Blinken spoke out of turn?
NO. Poland came up with idea and is trying to sell it to the US, via the media. Nope, ain't having these planes.
Moo
 
  • #619
We are all here because we are frantic for the Ukrainians and we see Putin for the sociopathic monster that he is. We also all love our own countries, presumably.

<modsnip>

Personally I have very mixed emotions as to what should be done about a no-fly zone. On the one hand, it certainly seems to be the surest way to knock the Russians out of Ukraine. On the other hand, none of us do want an actual, probably nuclear, WWIII to emerge from this.

I do see comments in the news, from multiple countries, about not wanting to anger Putin because he will go to nukes. Obviously I understand that, but it’s also reminiscent of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler.

I’m very grateful that my grandparents emigrated from what is now Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, so I can enjoy a comfortable American life. I love my country. I can’t say all our presidents have been perfect..before I was born, FDR refused entry to a shipload of Jewish refugees trying to escape the Nazis, and sent them back to Europe where they were murdered…but I do believe all the Western democracies are trying to figure out how to save Ukraine while not enduring a nuclear war.

Decisions like this are way out of my powers of discernment. I’m just doing what I can to financially support Ukraine.

I love WS because we are from all over, and I learn a lot from my fellow posters. <modsnip>We are all in anguish and frustrated, for sure, but we are on the same side; we support Ukraine and Zelenskyy.

@Vern I want to thank you and your son for your service to Canada, and anyone else here who is or has served in the military.

jmo
 
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  • #620
If I understand the bolded sections of the National Security Powers Act of 2021 correctly, the President does not need Congressional approval to export ammunitions and equipment for situations in the interest of National Security

S.2391 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): National Security Powers Act of 2021
National Security Powers Act of 2021

This bill limits presidential authorities related to, and increases congressional oversight of, introducing U.S. armed forces into hostilities, arms transactions, and national emergencies.

The bill limits presidential authority to introduce U.S. forces into hostilities absent a declaration of war, specific statutory authorization, or when necessary to repel a sudden attack (or imminent threat of an attack). It also establishes procedures for the President to notify Congress of and obtain authorization for the introduction of U.S. forces into hostilities (or the risk of them). Additionally, the bill repeals laws authorizing the use of force abroad and the War Powers Resolution, which provides procedures for Congress and the President to participate in decisions to send U.S. forces into hostilities. For a treaty or other international obligation to authorize the introduction or retention of U.S. forces, Congress must specifically enact implementing legislation to that effect.

The President must seek congressional approval before entering, renewing, or extending an arms sale or related transaction if the transaction exceeds specified dollar thresholds. This does not apply to transactions with NATO and its member countries, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Israel, New Zealand, or Taiwan.

The bill restricts presidential authorities related to national emergencies, including by limiting the period of a declared emergency to 30 days unless Congress authorizes an extension. The bill also establishes procedures for approving or disapproving an extension, requires the President to provide more detailed reports to Congress about national
emergencies, and sets out specific provisions for terminating an emergency.


SEC. 205. EMERGENCY PROCEDURES UNDER ARMS EXPORT CONTROL ACT.
Section 36 of the Arms Export Control Act is amended by adding at the end the following:


“(j) Restriction On Emergency Authority Relating To Arms Sales Under This Act.—A determination of the President that an emergency exists requiring a proposed transfer of defense articles or defense services in the national security interests of the United States, thus waiving the congressional review requirements pursuant to section 3

“(1) shall apply only if—

“(A) the President submits a determination and justification for each individual approval, letter of offer, or license for the defense articles or defense services that includes a specific and detailed description of how such waiver of the congressional review requirements directly responds to or addresses the circumstances of the emergency cited in the determination; and

“(B) the delivery of the defense articles or defense services will take place not later than 60 days after the date on which such determination is made, unless otherwise authorized by Congress; and

“(2) shall not apply in the case of defense articles or defense services that include manufacturing or co-production of the articles or services outside the United States.”.
 
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